Obligatory WUA UO post! Game free through the 12th!

[sinij]

Everyone has a point where they find their preferences/tolerances on the outside of 'accepted standard'. Especially in self-selecting medium like MMORPGs.

WUA, you can start your decade-long "bring pre-Pirates biotch" ranting, turn in your Fanboi Membership card, you can pick up new uniform from the pile in the corner.

[jcthebuilder]

So yeah, I'll report otherwise if it changes (which I think it will because there's a minor shitstorm in progress on the forum) but for now the whole ship thing is a giant bust. The crafting required is COMICALLY overcomplicated, and a single ship battle represents a five or six figure loss of gold once you factor in all the resources needed for ammunition and repairs.

1. Take some boards and craft them into charcoal.
2. Buy some saltpeter from one of the few NPC vendors that sell it.
3. Get some sulfurous ash from a mage shop or whatever.
4. Combine all of the above to make black powder.
5. Combine black powder with cloth to craft a powder charge.

Now you have a powder charge! But you still need cannonballs or grapeshot, fuses, matchcord... There's a fucking multi-step crafting process needed to make matches to light your cannons with. They fucking expect you to craft fuses, and the swabs to clean out the cannons..

Ok, that sounds 100% retarded. Is the ship to ship combat in anyway fun at least at the end of hours of attaching the leg bone to the ankle bone to the shin bone?

What is wrong with having an item being crafted using multiple parts? It is no where near the extreme of FF14 20 different items to make a fishing pole. None of the materials to craft cannon components are rare. Crafters complain about having nothing to do. Now they have something to make and sell, it is too much work.

Not being able to light the cannon with a regular torch is dumb though.

[Cheddar]

Damnit one of them followed you here.  Thanks, WUA.

[WindupAtheist]

JC runs the UO wiki that is pretty much the main source of information for the game, since the Stratics database is a hilarious mishmash of outdated information. I'm not aware of him being utterly retarded, though he does have some rather suspicious opinions on how making crafting so tedious that most people quit doing it makes it viable for the people who can put up with it. I'll flame his post later.

Anyway I think I'm going to get my 457th Stratics ban soon. I should just tubgirl the place for lolz and hop on a different account, but meh. The last 456 tubgirls didn't teach them anything, and one weekend of trolling is about all of that place I can take for a few months. I'll just take this opportunity to publicly laugh at their attempts to turn their heavily moderated den of blithering morons into anything but a UO fansite. The WoW Stratics site wishes it was half as active as the WoW subforum here.

[sinij]

Damnit one of them followed you here.  Thanks, WUA.

I say we make them chart fight to death - strongest, meanest Trammie gets to stay and we all win?

So, how many parts does it take to make a cannon, how long does it take to farm materials, and if you started your mining and lumberjack macro back in 98, how many cannons would you be able to make now? Most importantly, what does Peaches have to say about it?

[WindupAtheist]

Fuck you Sinij. Not for calling me a Trammie or generally mocking the game, but for entertaining the notion that some Stratics nub could ever defeat me in forum PVP. Fag. 

[UnSub]

It is no where near the extreme of FF14 20 different items to make a fishing pole.

This is not the comparative benchmark you want to use.

[WindupAtheist]

What is wrong with having an item being crafted using multiple parts? It is no where near the extreme of FF14 20 different items to make a fishing pole. None of the materials to craft cannon components are rare. Crafters complain about having nothing to do. Now they have something to make and sell, it is too much work.

Saltpeter is mandatory for making gunpowder and exists only on a handful of vendors that are basically camped to death by would-be gougers. A pretty ridiculous design, but they've added a few more vendors and I know for a fact that they plan to make it obtainable by mining in the near future so whatever. Mostly it's two things.

1) Most of this added complexity does nothing to help crafters. Some of it can be done on any human character thanks to their Jack of All Trades racial. A lot more of it can be done on a newbie character with basic NPC training. Most of this shit does nothing but make the process of supplying and firing cannons a bigger pain in the ass than it needs to be, without giving crafters anything they're ever going to make any real money from. Crafters could sell cannons and gunpowder without the need to make or worry about bullshit like matchcord, fuses, swabs, etcetera.

2) The large focus on crafting a bunch of pointless components and sub-components and the resources needed to keep a ship in good repair, combined with the sub-par rewards for actually killing pirates, makes the system a headache and an economic loser.

Money isn't hard to farm. Like I said in one of the threads on Stratics, these pirates could sail up to the bank and kill themselves and for 10k most people wouldn't even sail back to the Sea Market to turn them in.

[jcthebuilder]

Damnit one of them followed you here.  Thanks, WUA.

I've been registered on this forum for 4 years, thanks.

I'm not aware of him being utterly retarded, though he does have some rather suspicious opinions on how making crafting so tedious that most people quit doing it makes it viable for the people who can put up with it. I'll flame his post later.

If you think crafting a couple items is tedious then maybe you should purchase your cannon supplies from people who don't.

1) Most of this added complexity does nothing to help crafters. Some of it can be done on any human character thanks to their Jack of All Trades racial. A lot more of it can be done on a newbie character with basic NPC training. Most of this shit does nothing but make the process of supplying and firing cannons a bigger pain in the ass than it needs to be, without giving crafters anything they're ever going to make any real money from. Crafters could sell cannons and gunpowder without the need to make or worry about bullshit like matchcord, fuses, swabs, etcetera.

Once you have the supplies, it only takes 5 clicks to make a new cannon shot.

1) Ingot --> Cannonball
2) Charcoal + Saltpeter + Sulfurous Ash --> Black Powder
3) Black Powder + Cloth --> Powder Charge
4) Board + Water --> Potash
5) Potash + Yarn + Water + Black Powder --> Fuse Cord

Take Cannonball, Powder Charge and Fuse Cord to fire your cannon.

[Sir T]

This reminds me of the Mythbusters episode where they tested whether you could fire Cheese out of a Cannon. (The conclusion was that you need the right type of cheese but if you have it its damn effective)

Just a pointless post. Carry on  

[Cheddar]

words

You obviously don't get it.

[sinij]

You obviously don't get it.

This reminds me of steps required to fire a rifle in WW2OL. Does UO have flying boats/tanks yet?

[WindupAtheist]

1) Open blacksmithy
2) Ingot --> Cannonball
3) Open Alchemy
4) Charcoal + Saltpeter + Sulfurous Ash --> Black Powder
5) Black Powder + Cloth --> Powder Charge
6) Board + Water --> Potash
7) Potash + Yarn + Water + Black Powder --> Fuse Cord
8) Some Shit + Some Other Shit --> Match Cord
9) Open Tinkering
10) Some Shit + Match Cord --> Match

Meanwhile in any sane universe it would have been...

1) Open Alchemy
2) Some shit + Some Other Shit --> Powder Charge
3) Open Smithy
4) Some Different Shit --> Cannonball

Done.

[jcthebuilder]

Match is an infinite use item, you only need to make 1.

The point still stands that making the materials needed to fire cannon shots only requires crafting 5 different items. Of course it is annoying to make only 10 at a time. If you make dozens of hundreds, it is just like making potions but you're making cannon supplies.

Also both clients have built in crafting loops since Stygian Abyss so you can set it to make a certain number or as much materials as you have.

[WindupAtheist]

Match is an infinite use item, you only need to make 1.

Then why bother having them exist? Along with swabs, another step I left off, they serve absolutely no other purpose in the game except to add some extra shit to carry around and clicks to fire a cannon. They coded that shit for absolutely zero reason.

The point still stands that making the materials needed to fire cannon shots only requires crafting 5 different items. Of course it is annoying to make only 10 at a time. If you make dozens of hundreds, it is just like making potions but you're making cannon supplies.

It should take all of two steps.

Also both clients have built in crafting loops since Stygian Abyss so you can set it to make a certain number or as much materials as you have.

It's not that it's impossible to do, it's that it's pointless bullshit with zero upside. They could make you craft sword hilts individually, after you craft wire to wrap around it, and get some leather, and blah blah blah and it wouldn't make crafting swords impossible, but fuck why bother? Add that to the fact that ganking a pirate rewards about 3 or 4 minutes farming worth of gold, a shot at one of 8 pieces of a rare item that will be worth 50k in a few months, plus more of these resources I thought crafters were supposed to make, and eventually no one is going to be doing it.

[jcthebuilder]

The cannon cleaning and loading was done for balance reasons. Would you like a World of Warcraft cooldown instead?

So if you were in charge of design this is how they would be made:

1) Ingot --> Cannonball
2) Sulfurous Ash + Cloth --> Cannon Charge

Such a simple system encourages players to use their mule instead of considering buying it from other players. Ten years ago people crafted because it was "tedious" to remake all those armor and weapons constantly. Some people liked doing that. So you bought your equipment from them. But this doesn't apply today according to you. Everything needs to be a Staples Easy Button.

Why do some quests need to have multi-part? Why can't I bypass point B and move to point E to kill the end boss? I don't care about your story, where's Sephiroth? Maybe because it is less fun.

[WindupAtheist]

The cannon cleaning and loading was done for balance reasons. Would you like a World of Warcraft cooldown instead?

So if you were in charge of design this is how they would be made:

1) Ingot --> Cannonball
2) Sulfurous Ash + Cloth --> Cannon Charge

Such a simple system encourages players to use their mule instead of considering buying it from other players. Ten years ago people crafted because it was "tedious" to remake all those armor and weapons constantly. Some people liked doing that. So you bought your equipment from them. But this doesn't apply today according to you. Everything needs to be a Staples Easy Button.

Why do some quests need to have multi-part? Why can't I bypass point B and move to point E to kill the end boss? I don't care about your story, where's Sephiroth? Maybe because it is less fun.

Listen dipshit, it's either so five-clicks simple that I should STFU about the tedium, or it's designed to be so overwhelmingly laborious as to drive away everyone who isn't a hardcore dedicated crafter. Fucking pick one.

And of course I'd rather have a cooldown instead of a cooldown plus pointless clicking. What kind of stupid-ass question is that, and what the hell does it have to do with WoW? Hit your hiding skill. Now try to hit spirit speak. Oh shit, UO has global cooldowns on active skills.

I'm not even going to bother with the "derp derp easymode derp" garbage except to tell you that you ought to be embarrassed to say that shit in 2010. I suspect someone else will wander along and bother sooner or later, someone who hasn't already had their fill of flaming Stratics tards who missed (or failed to understand) the last 10 years of MMO design.

You are an immense disappointment.

[jcthebuilder]

Listen dipshit, it's either so five-clicks simple that I should STFU about the tedium, or it's designed to be so overwhelmingly laborious as to drive away everyone who isn't a hardcore dedicated crafter. Fucking pick one.

I am trying to say that the current way it is designed is not tedious or laborous, it is just right for what UO crafters currently need. You resort to name calling and saying I'm from Stratics (which couldn't be further from the truth). I thought we could have a nice discussion on the dynamics of multi-item crafting but it appears you can't handle it.

Hit your hiding skill. Now try to hit spirit speak. Oh shit, UO has global cooldowns on active skills.

I don't consider that a cool down. It is a delay to allow the time it would have taken you to perform that action. A cool down is when you cast a spell and it doesn't let you cast another of the same one for 60 seconds, 5 minutes or 1 hour. Right now cannons actually take skill to fire quickly. You are proposing a cool down which will let someone push a button every x seconds along with whatever other fighting they want to do, instead of having to mix in 5 cannon firing actions along with their normal fighting.

[WindupAtheist]

I am trying to say that the current way it is designed is not tedious or laborous, it is just right for what UO crafters currently need.

You're describing a system wherein someone will possess a character in every way capable of crafting the required items, but will instead decide to purchase the items from someone else because making it themselves is too... what? Tedious. The steps involved aren't difficult to understand. They're just... say it with me... tedious. Go ahead, give me a better word for describing "I could do this myself but fuck it, there's too much clicking!"

You resort to name calling and saying I'm from Stratics (which couldn't be further from the truth). I thought we could have a nice discussion on the dynamics of multi-item crafting but it appears you can't handle it.

If you want me to be nicer you're going to have to smarten up and quit saying shit like "No it's not irritating drudgery, it's just extra clicking to keep people from wanting to do it! Totally different!"

I don't consider that a cool down. It is a delay to allow the time it would have taken you to perform that action. A cool down is when you cast a spell and it doesn't let you cast another of the same one for 60 seconds, 5 minutes or 1 hour. Right now cannons actually take skill to fire quickly. You are proposing a cool down which will let someone push a button every x seconds along with whatever other fighting they want to do, instead of having to mix in 5 cannon firing actions along with their normal fighting.

You don't consider it a cooldown? Well, um, tough shit because that's precisely what it is. This is what I mean when I say you don't know shit about game design. It's not "a delay to allow the time it would have taken you to perform that action" or some blinkered nonsense like that, it's a goddamn cooldown to keep you from being able to hold down your macro and hide in short order even with minimal skill points invested.

You hit your hiding skill, and you either do or do not disappear based on a skill check. After that you're prohibited from trying again for the next 10 seconds. What else do you think the term cooldown describes? In what way is this not one?

Besides which, the real reason for all the clicking isn't to keep someone from getting a spell off between shots. It's to validate the idea of bringing multiple gunners by preventing someone from running up and down the length of the ship firing multiple cannons as they go. Problem is they still would have been better off just slapping a "you must wait to fire another cannon" cooldown on the player.

Have the act of firing the cannon cancel spell targeting and drop you out of combat for X seconds afterward if you really find it necessary, but don't just cram in a bunch of spergy "herp derp now click your swab to clean it, now put in another fuse" just to slow the process down with bullshit clicking. That sort of shit is BEGGING to be scripted.

Edit: Oh, and I'm not up for being dependant upon other players for every one of 457 different crafted items. If they ever make ship combat economically worthwhile, I'll probably be rolling my first-ever crafting mule. The skill requirements are well below GM, so why shouldn't I?

 

[Sheepherder]

WUA, do you mean to suggest that you did not sexually climax during the forging of the Blackrock Sword?

[Rendakor]

jcthebuilder, the shit you're spouting is why UO only got the one sequel it deserved: Darkfall. You're really arguing in favor of adding MORE hassle to a game, while simultaneously trying to redefine traditional MMO terms.

[Arthur_Parker]

Ideally I'd like a crafting system based on unique experimentation, like the original AC1 magic system pre Split Pea.  The "improvement" later games came up with over UO is to link crafting to level progression and reduce the RSI factor, if you dislike leveling up a crafting alt, then all that really happened was to replace part of one form of tedious activity with another.  The basic aim of requiring some sort of effort/time investment to master a crafting profession remains.  I don't like leveling or repetitive mouse clicking, we all know which is currently more popular, but I'm not convinced that one offers less "hassle" than the other.

[Lantyssa]

Except the crafting a billion biscuits to level bit, y'all are really making me miss crafting in SWG.  <sniffle>

[Paelos]

Except the crafting a billion biscuits to level bit, y'all are really making me miss crafting in SWG.  <sniffle>

Me too. I want to consider how my armor with this mineral vs. that mineral stats make mine better than the next guy. Then I can run it through my spreadsheets to make the ultimate piece I can sell for 2.5x the average demand price.

Yeah I like that stuff. Don't judge me! 

[jcthebuilder]

I don't consider that a cool down. It is a delay to allow the time it would have taken you to perform that action. A cool down is when you cast a spell and it doesn't let you cast another of the same one for 60 seconds, 5 minutes or 1 hour. Right now cannons actually take skill to fire quickly. You are proposing a cool down which will let someone push a button every x seconds along with whatever other fighting they want to do, instead of having to mix in 5 cannon firing actions along with their normal fighting.

You don't consider it a cooldown? Well, um, tough shit because that's precisely what it is. This is what I mean when I say you don't know shit about game design. It's not "a delay to allow the time it would have taken you to perform that action" or some blinkered nonsense like that, it's a goddamn cooldown to keep you from being able to hold down your macro and hide in short order even with minimal skill points invested.

You hit your hiding skill, and you either do or do not disappear based on a skill check. After that you're prohibited from trying again for the next 10 seconds. What else do you think the term cooldown describes? In what way is this not one?

Okay, then everything has a cooldown. Moving an item has a cooldown. Logging in has a cool down. Moving my mouse from point a to point b is a cooldown. That is ridiculous. There needs to be a delay between actions so you can't do something such as chain Fireballs like a machine gun until your mana is empty. The game developers decided that 6 seconds for most action based skills is a realistic delay before you can perform another. Skills such as Arms Lore have a much shorter delay because the idea behind it is much less time consuming.

On the other hand you have a Conflagration Potion (added a couple years ago) which only lets you toss 1 every 30 seconds. Due to its powerful ability to make a fire box, the developers decided to balance it by putting an arbitrary limit on the time in between uses. That is what a cool down is in game design, it is an arbitrary limit set by developers to balance the item/ability. I personally consider this lazy design and when UO launched there was nothing in it that was used this way. I can throw explosion potions as fast as my hand will allow, but this conflagration potion says it needs another 29 seconds before I can use it again.


Anyway, I just wanted to correct some misinformation about how cannons work. You are saying it should only take 2 items, I'm saying 5 is not unreasonable. It is a 3 item difference so people can take what they will of it.

[Malakili]

I don't consider that a cool down. It is a delay to allow the time it would have taken you to perform that action. A cool down is when you cast a spell and it doesn't let you cast another of the same one for 60 seconds, 5 minutes or 1 hour. Right now cannons actually take skill to fire quickly. You are proposing a cool down which will let someone push a button every x seconds along with whatever other fighting they want to do, instead of having to mix in 5 cannon firing actions along with their normal fighting.

You don't consider it a cooldown? Well, um, tough shit because that's precisely what it is. This is what I mean when I say you don't know shit about game design. It's not "a delay to allow the time it would have taken you to perform that action" or some blinkered nonsense like that, it's a goddamn cooldown to keep you from being able to hold down your macro and hide in short order even with minimal skill points invested.

You hit your hiding skill, and you either do or do not disappear based on a skill check. After that you're prohibited from trying again for the next 10 seconds. What else do you think the term cooldown describes? In what way is this not one?

Okay, then everything has a cooldown. Moving an item has a cooldown. Logging in has a cool down. Moving my mouse from point a to point b is a cooldown. That is ridiculous. There needs to be a delay between actions so you can't do something such as chain Fireballs like a machine gun until your mana is empty. The game developers decided that 6 seconds for most action based skills is a realistic delay before you can perform another. Skills such as Arms Lore have a much shorter delay because the idea behind it is much less time consuming.

On the other hand you have a Conflagration Potion (added a couple years ago) which only lets you toss 1 every 30 seconds. Due to its powerful ability to make a fire box, the developers decided to balance it by putting an arbitrary limit on the time in between uses. That is what a cool down is in game design, it is an arbitrary limit set by developers to balance the item/ability. I personally consider this lazy design and when UO launched there was nothing in it that was used this way. I can throw explosion potions as fast as my hand will allow, but this conflagration potion says it needs another 29 seconds before I can use it again.


Anyway, I just wanted to correct some misinformation about how cannons work. You are saying it should only take 2 items, I'm saying 5 is not unreasonable. It is a 3 item difference so people can take what they will of it.

Wait, are you suggesting the term cooldown can only be used when there isn't a "in game/in character" reason for something to have a delay?  If they came up with a reason that potions couldn't be tossed more than once every 30 seconds that referred to the game world rather than the game mechanics would it suddenly not be a cooldown?

Your argument makes no sense.

[jcthebuilder]

Wait, are you suggesting the term cooldown can only be used when there isn't a "in game/in character" reason for something to have a delay?  If they came up with a reason that potions couldn't be tossed more than once every 30 seconds that referred to the game world rather than the game mechanics would it suddenly not be a cooldown?.

I'm saying if you use a timer to determine balance then it is lazy design. It is extremely easy to say "you can only only use this item once every 10 minutes". It is more difficult to work out that you have a stomach and it can only hold X pieces of food, so if a player eats 5 items they can't eat anything for another hour. If you eat 5 of the +5 strength cookies you will have 25 strength, but not be able to get extra dexterity or intelligence.

[jcthebuilder]

Wait, are you suggesting the term cooldown can only be used when there isn't a "in game/in character" reason for something to have a delay?  If they came up with a reason that potions couldn't be tossed more than once every 30 seconds that referred to the game world rather than the game mechanics would it suddenly not be a cooldown?.

I'm saying if you use a timer to determine balance then it is lazy design. It is extremely easy to say "you can only only use this item once every 10 minutes". It is more difficult to work out that you have a stomach and it can only hold X pieces of food, so if a player eats 5 items they can't eat anything for another hour. If you eat 5 of the +5 strength cookies you will have 25 strength, but not be able to get extra dexterity or intelligence. Or make it so that you get +5 from the first item, but subsequent uses have less effect so the second gives +3 and the rest +1.

lol, quote and modify buttons look the same

[Malakili]

Wait, are you suggesting the term cooldown can only be used when there isn't a "in game/in character" reason for something to have a delay?  If they came up with a reason that potions couldn't be tossed more than once every 30 seconds that referred to the game world rather than the game mechanics would it suddenly not be a cooldown?.

I'm saying if you use a timer to determine balance then it is lazy design. It is extremely easy to say "you can only only use this item once every 10 minutes". It is more difficult to work out that you have a stomach and it can only hold X pieces of food, so if a player eats 5 items they can't eat anything for another hour. If you eat 5 of the +5 strength cookies you will have 25 strength, but not be able to get extra dexterity or intelligence.

Oh I see, your arbitrary limits are somehow less lazy than their arbitrary limits, I understand now.

[WindupAtheist]

Okay, then everything has a cooldown. Moving an item has a cooldown. Logging in has a cool down. Moving my mouse from point a to point b is a cooldown. That is ridiculous. There needs to be a delay between actions so you can't do something such as chain Fireballs like a machine gun until your mana is empty. The game developers decided that 6 seconds for most action based skills is a realistic delay before you can perform another. Skills such as Arms Lore have a much shorter delay because the idea behind it is much less time consuming.

That delay between spells to keep you from spamming them, that is a cooldown. That's the god damned definition of a cooldown. When you offer the requisite input to activate a particular skill/spell/ability and the game says "Sorry, you just pushed the button for X but you'll have to wait, you can't do that again yet!" that is a fucking cooldown. The cooldown doesn't represent the time it takes to accomplish the task, because you don't need to wait out the length of the cooldown before receiving the benefit of the skill. You don't use Arms Lore, wait six seconds, and then receive a report. You use Arms Lore, receive a report as soon as you click the target, and then must wait six seconds before you can do it again.

Most skills in UO have at least a small chance of succeeding even at a very low investment of points. The purpose of these cooldowns isn't because "realistically it would take 10 seconds to hide yet only 6 to study a weapon" but to keep someone with 20 points in 10 different skills from being a god because they can just hold a macro down and burn through 12 failures in 3 seconds to get their success.

A blacksmith can churn out pieces of plate armor pretty much as fast as he can hit a button. There's no real cooldown on it because there are already mechanisms in place to make it desirable to raise the skill as high as possible. They don't give a shit how long things should realistically take.

On the other hand you have a Conflagration Potion (added a couple years ago) which only lets you toss 1 every 30 seconds. Due to its powerful ability to make a fire box, the developers decided to balance it by putting an arbitrary limit on the time in between uses. That is what a cool down is in game design, it is an arbitrary limit set by developers to balance the item/ability. I personally consider this lazy design and when UO launched there was nothing in it that was used this way. I can throw explosion potions as fast as my hand will allow, but this conflagration potion says it needs another 29 seconds before I can use it again.

Oh, so a "delay" only becomes a "cooldown" when it hits some arbitrary length of time that jcthebuilder doesn't believe properly represents the time taken to accomplish a given task. Yeah, let me just write this down. Herf.

Anyway, I just wanted to correct some misinformation about how cannons work. You are saying it should only take 2 items, I'm saying 5 is not unreasonable. It is a 3 item difference so people can take what they will of it.

You pretty much talked yourself into a corner with that bit about how the crafting isn't deliberately tedious (It just has a bunch of extra clicks to keep most people from wanting to do it!) so you're just going to pretend none of that happened. Gotcha.

[jcthebuilder]

You pretty much talked yourself into a corner with that bit about how the crafting isn't deliberately tedious (It just has a bunch of extra clicks to keep most people from wanting to do it!) so you're just going to pretend none of that happened. Gotcha.

You call a click tedious even though an item pops up in your backpack a second later. I call spending several days hand crafting the same desk plaque 150 times tedious. To each his own.

[WindupAtheist]

You still haven't told me what word besides tedious should be used to describe a system that discourages players from participating by piling on superfluous clicking.

I'm waiting.

[Rasix]

 

[Reg]

I don't get all the wailing about the tedium of crafting. Did UOAssist stop working or something?

Compared to the fact that battling pirates is a money-losing proposition I think the relative tedium of making the cannon supplies is fairly unimportant.

[jcthebuilder]

You still haven't told me what word besides tedious should be used to describe a system that discourages players from participating by piling on superfluous clicking.

I'm waiting.

If 5 clicks are too many, I would like to know which game out there you consider to have the ideal click to craft ratio. Then I can provide a retort.