So, is WOW worth going back to?

[Dren]

Yes, that means Horde gets a ton of tenacity, but our numbers just overwhelm them. 

Come to my server, feel the opposite side's pain...

Last time I won, it was following a zerg -- obviously pre-made group, actually, of about 20 people who went straight to the westmost-garage, killing NPC's along the way, managed to all be Lts, built 10 seige engines all with gunners (I was one) and simply rolled up and battered their way through while the bulk of the Alliance was fighting around Sunken Ring with the bulk of the Horde.

They weren't even anyone on the tower guns on the West side when we blew through. We saw reinforcements showing up right as we hit the innermost wall.

Also, I notice most Alliance don't seem to know how you can ask the Spirit Healer to move you to another controlled graveyard.

Yeah that's what I meant by a 12 seige run.  You can tell when a small premade group comes in on the weekends and makes a run at the wall quick and hard and win.  I've gotten good at recognizing this early and warning everyone.  When the other side has 12 seige vehicles up and running 30 seconds into the event, you know they are making a real attempt at it this time.  At the same time, they will have high pvp GS groups protecting the southern seige shops and towers.  Without coordination (pretty normal) those little groups will mop up the other side very easily.  Tenacity + High PvP GS = Nearly impoosible to kill and hit harder than a truck.

I saw this last weekend and warned everyone early.  We did well at defending the walls all around the keep, but they eventually whittled us down with so many holes we couldn't keep up.  It was a great fight down to the last 3 mins and they broke through to the chamber.  I'll take a fun loss over a boring win.

[Morat20]

I saw this last weekend and warned everyone early.  We did well at defending the walls all around the keep, but they eventually whittled us down with so many holes we couldn't keep up.  It was a great fight down to the last 3 mins and they broke through to the chamber.  I'll take a fun loss over a boring win.

I fucking hate it when we're getting rolled so bad we're down to one GY and 2/3rds of the Horde and 20 catapults are there. The other third is generally playing anti-ninja to whatever stealthies managed to go snag back a distant garage or something.

[Fordel]

Doomhammer Alliance got real good at stopping the Siege Train rush, which demoralized the already battered and outnumbered horde on our server even more.

Now we are lucky if the Horde manage a full raid half the time.

I think we have 1200+ defenses to their 200 now. The only glimmer of hope the Horde have is they still seem to capture the place once in a blue moon, both sides seem to have 500 captures.


But yea, it's pretty damn rare for us to actually be on the offense or not own WG.

[Ingmar]

Well the captures should be tied or within 1 of tied on every server, that's just how that works.

[Fordel]

Well the captures should be tied or within 1 of tied on every server, that's just how that works.

Yea, but some servers have capture rates still in the double digits. Those are places where one side just NEVER has WG. Our Horde still seem to grab onto it once in awhile, they just don't keep it.

[Morat20]

Well the captures should be tied or within 1 of tied on every server, that's just how that works.

Yea, but some servers have capture rates still in the double digits. Those are places where one side just NEVER has WG. Our Horde still seem to grab onto it once in awhile, they just don't keep it.

Where do you look that up? 'cause, on Argent Dawn, Alliance NEVER seems to have WG. Myabe I've just hit a bad streak.

[Soulflame]

There's a book in the room right outside of the raid instance.

[Morat20]

There's a book in the room right outside of the raid instance.

For Wintergrasp?

[Selby]

For Wintergrasp?

Yup.  It's got Archavon's thoughts in it and a history of how many wins\losses\successful defends\etc for each side in it.

[Fordel]

Yea, it's across from the meeting stone, near the relic platform.

[Morat20]

Yea, it's across from the meeting stone, near the relic platform.

I just join from the hall in Dalaran.

[apocrypha]

The summoning stone for VoA, not Wintergrasp. It's on the ground, right outside the VOA entrance portal.

It's kinda funny first time you read it :)

[Brennik]

The "kill 3 seige vehicles" quest is a tough one to get around if none are ever built!

Umm, has Blizzard fixed the dueling trick then? I haven't been to WG in ages, but last I was there you could get someone from your own side build a siege, have them hop out of the vehicle, then challenge them to a duel and have them hop back in. Kill the vehicle and it counted as having killed an enemy siege.

[Rendakor]

Well the captures should be tied or within 1 of tied on every server, that's just how that works.

Yea, but some servers have capture rates still in the double digits. Those are places where one side just NEVER has WG. Our Horde still seem to grab onto it once in awhile, they just don't keep it.

That sounds like my server, Andorhal.

Horde:
Keep Defended: 1705
Keep Captured: 361

Alliance:
Keep Defended: 76
Keep Captured: 360

We've got a, uh...RP/World PVP guild that considers WG our fifth capital city though, and they take it as a personal affront whenever the alliance actually win.

[Chimpy]

The "kill 3 seige vehicles" quest is a tough one to get around if none are ever built!

Umm, has Blizzard fixed the dueling trick then? I haven't been to WG in ages, but last I was there you could get someone from your own side build a siege, have them hop out of the vehicle, then challenge them to a duel and have them hop back in. Kill the vehicle and it counted as having killed an enemy siege.

I am pretty sure they fixed that before I quit a year and a half ago.

[Morat20]

I looked up Argent Dawn's stats -- yeah, it's pretty much a Horde Steamroll.

Got onto one last night, had an Alliance with some people with an actual clue and we had what looked like equal numbers. Alliance on offence, and were down to the inner wall 10 minutes into the game. Had the inner wall down to 40%, in fact. And couldn't take it. The Horde just turtled the fuck up, and too many people were making vehicles and running in piecemeal. The people who had a clue couldn't manage more than 6 tanks at a time, which wasn't enough to make it to the inner wall.

And of course, it was just everyone funneling in that one way -- the other 9 vehicles never concentrated either on the gap we'd blown in the wall, or bothered blowing in another wall on the other side and maybe relieving some pressure.

Siege engines die pretty quick to a 100 horde in a small area...

[Dren]

Yeah, in that situation you have to have rogue vehicles hitting all the other different angles while you keep the other side busy on the one inner wall breach.  Once you have multiple openings, the enemy gets spread out and can't react well to a 6 vehicle drive.  You still have to be able to bring in your full force all at once for the vault crash if the entire other side is in the courtyard.  Sounds like Horde was more organized and strategic than Alliance that run. 

Also, if they were able to get the 3 towers down, their damage gets boosted 15% along with the reduction in battle time.  That's nothing to sneeze at and really puts the offense at a handicap.  To truly get into the vault, you have to hit them fast and hard while having small groups slow down the destruction of the towers.  Not only will their forces (people and seige vehicles) be divided up onto the towers (and out of the fortress,) you'll have the damage advantage.  Since tenacity wasn't a concern in this case, it is your only advantage.

[Morat20]

Yeah, in that situation you have to have rogue vehicles hitting all the other different angles while you keep the other side busy on the one inner wall breach.  Once you have multiple openings, the enemy gets spread out and can't react well to a 6 vehicle drive.  You still have to be able to bring in your full force all at once for the vault crash if the entire other side is in the courtyard.  Sounds like Horde was more organized and strategic than Alliance that run. 

Also, if they were able to get the 3 towers down, their damage gets boosted 15% along with the reduction in battle time.  That's nothing to sneeze at and really puts the offense at a handicap.  To truly get into the vault, you have to hit them fast and hard while having small groups slow down the destruction of the towers.  Not only will their forces (people and seige vehicles) be divided up onto the towers (and out of the fortress,) you'll have the damage advantage.  Since tenacity wasn't a concern in this case, it is your only advantage.

Damn near made it, actually. We've have won if we'd had a single extra seige engine on the first push. Maybe 2. Like I said, we blew towers, walls, and hit the inner wall down to 40% on the first push. Sadly, the rest of the Alliance vehicles were dicking around near Sunken Ring, mostly catapults chasing an individual horde guy.

[Dren]

Damn near made it, actually. We've have won if we'd had a single extra seige engine on the first push. Maybe 2. Like I said, we blew towers, walls, and hit the inner wall down to 40% on the first push. Sadly, the rest of the Alliance vehicles were dicking around near Sunken Ring, mostly catapults chasing an individual horde guy.

I hate that.  People need to understand that one catapult isn't enough to take out most pvp players.  They will either just make you chase them, thus being ineffective, or tear down your vehicle, thus decreasing your overall might!  It amazes me how many people can't figure out that many of these BG's and WG aren't just about killing other players.  There are, you know, objectives to get for the win (flags, gates, walls, nodes, etc.)

[Morat20]

I hate that.  People need to understand that one catapult isn't enough to take out most pvp players.  They will either just make you chase them, thus being ineffective, or tear down your vehicle, thus decreasing your overall might!  It amazes me how many people can't figure out that many of these BG's and WG aren't just about killing other players.  There are, you know, objectives to get for the win (flags, gates, walls, nodes, etc.)

I think most people -- and I'm guilty of it myself at times -- think "It's a FUCKING CATAPULT" and think that, yes, the flame-spewing war machine SHOULD fucking seriously hurt anyone getting close to it. And, if you have a lot of experience trying to kill one of the fuckers when it's surrounded by Horde, you notice how quickly you die in the green cloud and fire.

However, if you look back over your logs -- what killed you was the toxic cloud, the fire, and the four Horde guys picking you off.

I try mostly to gun on seige tanks. Two or three seige tanks hammering a cluster of horde with the guns WILL kill them pretty quick. Three or four catapults working together will tear through clustered horde. The best use for them, however, is tossing shit square into the grounds of the Keep, where the defenders are. In the end, it's just AoE and fairly light at that. But three or four demolishers, or seige engine guns, or even catapult toxic barrels landing into a small area with 20 horde will fuck them pretty quick.

Then again, I watched a close battle quickly turn into a 20 Horde Catapult Seige of the Alliance graveyard again. Strangely, I noticed the turning point happened around the time I got a triple tenacity buff. There's just no fucking changing superior numbers.

[Azuredream]

When people are turtling like that the strategy I always saw was to plow in with a bunch of siege tanks and players while leaving a few demolishers to snipe the door while the opponent is occupied. Even after they kill all the players/tanks they take a while to realize there's demolishers slowly plinking away their gate.

[Dren]

When people are turtling like that the strategy I always saw was to plow in with a bunch of siege tanks and players while leaving a few demolishers to snipe the door while the opponent is occupied. Even after they kill all the players/tanks they take a while to realize there's demolishers slowly plinking away their gate.

Yeah, that's what I was mentioning about picking on the other walls where nobody is.  Eventually you have 2-3 holes leading to the inner wall and it becomes harder and harder to defend.

Still, being vastly outnumbered is a big problem.  Basically, I think you just figure out you are going to lose, so just have fun with the tenacity and get some HK's and generally piss off a lot of people.  Once you are stuck at your own GY, just figure out a way to escape and go to a remote shop and try to take it over.  Basically be a nuisance while getting one shots on people!

[WindupAtheist]

I try mostly to gun on seige tanks. Two or three seige tanks hammering a cluster of horde with the guns WILL kill them pretty quick. Three or four catapults working together will tear through clustered horde. The best use for them, however, is tossing shit square into the grounds of the Keep, where the defenders are. In the end, it's just AoE and fairly light at that. But three or four demolishers, or seige engine guns, or even catapult toxic barrels landing into a small area with 20 horde will fuck them pretty quick.

I'm firmly of the opinion that the only time when it's acceptable to fire vehicle-scale weaponry at infantry is when you're manning a tower gun, there are no enemy vehicles within range yet, but the situation (too many enemies, incoming vehicles) doesn't lend itself to just dismounting and jumping into the fray.

You're manning the turret in a siege engine that has come under attack? Don't sit there shooting the enemy with that pissant gun. Jump out. Crowd control someone. Unload some real damage on someone else. Provide an alternative target of greater priority because it's actively beating the shit out of the attackers. If you win, the siege is slow enough to catch upto on your mount. If you die, at least you bought the siege a little time.

Firing catapult or demolisher rounds mindlessly over the keep walls and hoping to see yellow numbers is basically a waste of time. If you're doing it on defense, you're just wasting a vehicle slot while contributing essentially nothing. If you're doing it on offense THEN WHAT THE FUCK GO SHOOT A WALL. I've never found myself on defense going "Oh noes, the catapult artillery is fucking us up!" because frankly I'd need to be hit by ten of them at once before I started giving a shit, and if they're wasting ten vehicle slots for dumb shit like that then victory is nearly certain.

I'd rather hit one person for 5k than ten people for 1k each. At least my one person is going to stop whatever he was doing to defend himself. Your ten people will barely notice that they were hit.

Edit: Sorry. That guy driving a vehicle around Wintergrasp as if it were able to effectively attack infantry is my main PVP pet peeve right now. And on offense, as soon as you diverge from your course you've already lost. You're never going to kill that rogue with your siege engine's battering ram or whatever.

[Threash]

Well i am halfway to 75 already in less than two weeks and so far i am enjoying it plenty.  Having top level 70 epic gear has certainly helped the process along.  I wish i had any idea what all the badges and stuff i am collecting do though, I assume they are for gearing up once i hit 80.  Speaking of which, what is the best way to go about gearing up at 80?

[Ingmar]

Parking a demo in the courtyard and firing over the walls at the opposing siege engines in the adjacent areas is actually pretty useful. Driving a catapult around trying to kill people isn't, though.

[Sheepherder]

Badge items.  4/5 T9 + 1 iLevel 245 head/shoulder piece (head is usually better).  Fill out the rest with pieces from Normal/Heroic ICC instances.

[Lantyssa]

Edit: Sorry. That guy driving a vehicle around Wintergrasp as if it were able to effectively attack infantry is my main PVP pet peeve right now. And on offense, as soon as you diverge from your course you've already lost. You're never going to kill that rogue with your siege engine's battering ram or whatever.

Heh.  I loved that.  "Well, knocking me back 20 feet was kinda fun (wheeee), but" <swipe> "I'm at full health now."  <swipe> <swipe> <doomboltthingie> "Next!"

[WindupAtheist]

Parking a demo in the courtyard and firing over the walls at the opposing siege engines in the adjacent areas is actually pretty useful.

You'd be much more useful firing off RP-GG rounds until you run out or get noticed, then running in to DPS on foot. Much more. Vehicles are good for destroying what only vehicles can destroy. In actual combat they're slow, clumsy, low damage turds.

[Fordel]

The only siege engine that is actually good at killing players, is the actual SiegeTank from Isle of Conquest. The main cannon does like 10k AE damage every second and the two secondary cannons are doing 5-6k AE damage, either in ranged fireball form or AE Cone flamethrower form. The drivers ram is also obscene, if only for how it causes the tank to sprint a 100 yards and fling everything in its path to all corners. If you can actually manage to get that tank full of semi-coordinated people, you can clear out a 20+ person zerg in a few seconds.

Of course that is lol IoC though 




Ing, the reason we get away with having 16 demo's shooting into the wall-gap is because we've already destroyed the southern towers. Even then they aren't actually killing the enemy demos behind the wall, it's still the players going over and blowing them up.


There is one instance of a catapult being useful, it's in blanketing the lower level of the tower so the defenders can't fire RPGs into the tanks on the wall.

[Ingmar]

Parking a demo in the courtyard and firing over the walls at the opposing siege engines in the adjacent areas is actually pretty useful.

You'd be much more useful firing off RP-GG rounds until you run out or get noticed, then running in to DPS on foot. Much more. Vehicles are good for destroying what only vehicles can destroy. In actual combat they're slow, clumsy, low damage turds.

Nah, I play a protection warrior on the side that *doesn't* have tenacity. My dps on an opposing siege tank or demo is not competitive with what I can do from a demo. It doesn't really 'waste' a vehicle slot, we always have enough catapults down at the south to handle the towers.

[Morat20]

Parking a demo in the courtyard and firing over the walls at the opposing siege engines in the adjacent areas is actually pretty useful.

You'd be much more useful firing off RP-GG rounds until you run out or get noticed, then running in to DPS on foot. Much more. Vehicles are good for destroying what only vehicles can destroy. In actual combat they're slow, clumsy, low damage turds.

I can't ever hit shit with those.

[Fordel]

The RPG's need to be fired from clear and level surfaces, they can be elevated, but it must be level and/or free of random debris. Like, a 2 centimeter pebble could disrupt their pathing.

They also don't track movement at all, so its best to shoot things that are stationary, or shoot in the direction of where the target SHOULD be once the rpg lands.

[Morat20]

Someone -- while we were getting fucking rolled again in Wintergrasp -- made the point that all the tenacity in the world didn't affect crowd-control abilities, and when you had a numbers edge you had a real edge in stuns, roots, and snares....

Which was true enough. With three stacks of tenacity I managed to pick off like 3 defenders at a garage. Unfortunately, there were 8 of them, and once I burned down three I got stun-locked and died about 12 seconds later. So did the two guys rezzing in right as I croaked.

I like the idea of Wintergrasp, but.....it's kinda frustrating playing on a server where you're outnumbered badly every battle. Where half of them end up with the last five minutes being an AoE fest as 20-odd seige engines sit outside the one GY they can't capture -- and when the Horde you do kill (and there are more Horde there than the entire Alliance side, with enough left over to keep you from ninjaing more than one garage -- and then only briefly) rez about 50 yards away.

[WindupAtheist]

In Cata the # of people that can join on the overpopulated side of a battle like this is dictated by the number of people that join on the underpopulated side. So if only X Alliance join, only X Horde can join as well and the rest can fuck off.

Meaning that on some of the less-balanced servers, the new world PVP events will more or less cease to exist. I don't know what Blizzard is thinking, unless they're just counting on raking in some extra dollars when a bunch of people transfer over it.

[Morat20]

In Cata the # of people that can join on the overpopulated side of a battle like this is dictated by the number of people that join on the underpopulated side. So if only X Alliance join, only X Horde can join as well and the rest can fuck off.

Meaning that on some of the less-balanced servers, the new world PVP events will more or less cease to exist. I don't know what Blizzard is thinking, unless they're just counting on raking in some extra dollars when a bunch of people transfer over it.

I dunno. Alliance generally fields at least 40, even late on a weeknight, and my server seems heavily overbalanced Horde-side -- at least in PvP.

Of course, it being a role-playing server that LONG had the reputation that if you wanted to win at PvP, you went Horde.....

I can see Wintergrasp going dead because of whatever new world PvP event happens in Cata, unless they somehow ensure Northend stays heavily populated. Maybe add some 85-level stuff in Wintergrasp.