"MMO" term dilution

[DLRiley]

No no, golf is really boring

No no, you just suck at golf.

Most people suck at golf, point stands.

[Arthur_Parker]

That's an opinion, not a point.

[DLRiley]

That's an opinion, not a point.

True.

[Ratman_tf]

Camp check in LGuk was so much fun. People really have forgotten that mmo is all about making sure thousands of people all need to compete over a single mob for their quest, not making sure people have fun playing a game together. Really need to bring back placeholder mobs and rare quest drops, too. And corpse runs and level loss due to experience, people have totally forgotten what makes mmo fun.

Just because Everquest sucked balls doesn't mean that non-instanced game worlds are a bad idea. People just need to think outside of an 11 year old game that was made so grubby gamers could jerk off to female dark elves and pretend that Ed Greenwood is the greatest writer of fantasy of all time, while collecting belts and training mobs to the zone line.

Heh. Slyfeind is playing old school EQ on a player server right now. People are broken. 

[Azazel]

If I inform two independent players who belong to the same game world server, with no prior knowledge of each other (not grouped together, not in the same guild or raid, not on a particular "side", etc) to go to a destination in their game world, then they are 100% likely to interact with each other when both arrive at that location regardless of the manner or route each may have taken to get there.

That is my definition of the original true MMO, with global persistance and shared presence. You know, like a ... world ... has.

I live in the real world. With global persistance and shared prescence. When I catch a bus or an elevator, or go to a shop, I generally don't intereact with the other players. I might interact with the NPC vendor or driver, but not the other players really.

[Azazel]

Just because Everquest sucked balls doesn't mean that non-instanced game worlds are a bad idea. People just need to think outside of an 11 year old game that was made so grubby gamers could jerk off to female dark elves and pretend that Ed Greenwood is the greatest writer of fantasy of all time, while collecting belts and training mobs to the zone line.

You just listed EQ's best points! 

Well, except I have no idea who Ed Greenwood is. 

[Stabs]

He's the Dungeons and Dragons GM who invented Forgotten Realms. He wrote a few awful novels like Spellfire the main purpose of which seemed to be bragging about how cool his character was.

I suspect that Ratman meant Bob Salvatore rather than Greenwood. The Drizz'tt guy. Not even D&D nerds rate Greenwood as an author.

[Azazel]

I Actually read one or two of the drizzle books close to 10 years ago (one and a half books? two and a half?). I bought them as travel fodder while going overseas for a bit. They were okay as far as that sort of thing goes, but I didn't feel a need to read through the entire series or buy any more or anything.

[Stabs]

In the small sub-genre of fantasy fiction that is made up of Dungeonmasters Who Believe They are Authors Salvatore is Shakespeare. That is because he is quite good and became a lot better with practice and actually tries to write about complex emotions such as bereavement where most of them are 250 pages of "wee, my character is sooo cooool".

[Draegan]

My fiance, for some reason, bought me The Cleric Quintet at a some book swap for a few bucks.  I'm reading book one, Canticle, and Salvatore's writing is a bit... simple.  Reads like a comic book/dungeon crawl.  It's mildly entertaining.

[WayAbvPar]

There are times lately when I miss sitting around camping spawns- it allowed time for chatting, and it didn't require running all over hell's half acre on horrible fetch it quests (LOTRO is positively punitive with the back and forth bullshit over great distances for some quests). It sucked when there wasn't a PUG available, though. I will always miss trains...some of the funniest moments I have had in gaming were due to some epic EQ1 trains.

[Azazel]

That's one thing which turns me off Lord of the Fucking Runs for weeks at a time.

There's a whole series of levels (45-50?) where All Quests Lead To Elrond from Trollshaws and Misty Mountains with occasional guest moments from All The Other Quests Lead To Glorfindel.

Elrond tells you:
Go see Gloin.

(10 minutes later)

Gloin Tells you:
ok cool. Go see Elrond again.

It's immersive. 

[Nebu]

Most people suck at golf, point stands.

I don't agree with DLRiley often, but statistically, most people do suck at golf.  It is a fact. 

There are times lately when I miss sitting around camping spawns- it allowed time for chatting, and it didn't require running all over hell's half acre on horrible fetch it quests (LOTRO is positively punitive with the back and forth bullshit over great distances for some quests). It sucked when there wasn't a PUG available, though. I will always miss trains...some of the funniest moments I have had in gaming were due to some epic EQ1 trains.

The thing that I get most nostalgic about with regard to EQ was the fact that the early dungeon runs required you to be constantly aware.  You had to be mindful getting into a spawn camp.  Once there, you had to be careful not to screw up for fear of losing everything. 

I don't want games to bring back the long camping mechanic.  I would like for games to bring back a sense of risk vs reward.  If I'm going to go deep into a dungeon to retrieve some rare item, I'd like to know that I have to risk something to obtain it beyond just my time.  I'm not sure how risk/reward could be implemented without being a punch to the groin, but would really enjoy having some sense of risk when entering an area that houses useful/rare items.  It really gave value to those things knowing that few people were willing to take the risk to go after items deeply embedded in a dangerous place.  Perhaps item decay, Item loss, or something of the like.

[Mrbloodworth]

That's one thing which turns me off Lord of the Fucking Runs for weeks at a time.

There's a whole series of levels (45-50?) where All Quests Lead To Elrond from Trollshaws and Misty Mountains with occasional guest moments from All The Other Quests Lead To Glorfindel.

Elrond tells you:
Go see Gloin.

(10 minutes later)

Gloin Tells you:
ok cool. Go see Elrond again.

It's immersive.  

Very much agree. Gloin needs a dam swift travel horse point.

[Muzadi]

The issue of instancing is a really problematic one for me.

On the technical side, I absolutely understand why it has become the dominant method for dealing with large player populations - it vastly simplifies population distribution, sometimes without even having to artificially split your playerbase up between servers.

However, when I am honest with myself, I have to admit that MMORPGs just don't feel the same as when the world is completely persistent (I still am hopelessly nostalgic about Shadowbane).

I suspect if one were willing to upend a lot of MMORPG tropes and conventions one could bring back a persistent, non-instanced world (though that would have to be split between servers, which would require its own solution other than charging players to jump between them), but I expect it would only look somewhat like what we think of when we think of an MMORPG - and that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing at all.

[Mrbloodworth]

I dunno, I don't find much appealing about sitting in line at the bottom of a dungeon that I just walked all they way down into because there are 8 groups already there.

[Malakili]

I don't want games to bring back the long camping mechanic.  I would like for games to bring back a sense of risk vs reward.  If I'm going to go deep into a dungeon to retrieve some rare item, I'd like to know that I have to risk something to obtain it beyond just my time.  I'm not sure how risk/reward could be implemented without being a punch to the groin, but would really enjoy having some sense of risk when entering an area that houses useful/rare items.  It really gave value to those things knowing that few people were willing to take the risk to go after items deeply embedded in a dangerous place.  Perhaps item decay, Item loss, or something of the like.

This is why I don't understand the epic amounts of Darkfall hate on this forum.  The game has its issues (I stopped playing it, I can't really talk), but it has lots of these "old school" feeling mechanics.   It has most of the features people always say that they want, yet almost no one was even willing to try the game.  Is in the full loot/ open PvP mechanic that people don't like?  I know the PvP stuff is what people always focus on, but it has a deep crafting game, a more old school/quest light PvE game, and the spawn camping isn't nearly so bad as something like EQ.

[naum]

There are times lately when I miss sitting around camping spawns- it allowed time for chatting, and it didn't require running all over hell's half acre on horrible fetch it quests (LOTRO is positively punitive with the back and forth bullshit over great distances for some quests). It sucked when there wasn't a PUG available, though. I will always miss trains...some of the funniest moments I have had in gaming were due to some epic EQ1 trains.

I fondly remember Blackburrow and Hill/Sand Giant trains… …and still wane nostalgic for the early Rallos Zek days… 

/goodtimes, even with all the hideous bugs, exploits and glitches…

[DLRiley]

I don't want games to bring back the long camping mechanic.  I would like for games to bring back a sense of risk vs reward.  If I'm going to go deep into a dungeon to retrieve some rare item, I'd like to know that I have to risk something to obtain it beyond just my time.  I'm not sure how risk/reward could be implemented without being a punch to the groin, but would really enjoy having some sense of risk when entering an area that houses useful/rare items.  It really gave value to those things knowing that few people were willing to take the risk to go after items deeply embedded in a dangerous place.  Perhaps item decay, Item loss, or something of the like.

This is why I don't understand the epic amounts of Darkfall hate on this forum.  The game has its issues (I stopped playing it, I can't really talk), but it has lots of these "old school" feeling mechanics.   It has most of the features people always say that they want, yet almost no one was even willing to try the game.  Is in the full loot/ open PvP mechanic that people don't like?  I know the PvP stuff is what people always focus on, but it has a deep crafting game, a more old school/quest light PvE game, and the spawn camping isn't nearly so bad as something like EQ.

Why play a game for crafting? I don't want to play runescape again.

[kildorn]

I still fondly remember growing up in El Paso, TX. Doesn't mean it's not a shitty city that I want to go back to.

edit: this thread is pretty much showing off why instancing and segmenting your population and reducing reliance on other players has become popular: everyone has their own idea of what should be an MMO, and what shouldn't be. Crafting, PVP, Raiding, Camp Checks, Soloing, Fast Travel versus Walk Realistically Everywhere, I'm sure we could go on.

The reality of the situation is that WoW IS an MMORPG, even if it's not everyone's idea of what an MMO should be. And the problem is the nostalgic MMO people want wouldn't break 100k subscribers, and would still be held up against WoW for polish and amount of content expected.

[Malakili]

Why play a game for crafting? I don't want to play runescape again.

Will someone ban this cocksucker for posting useless shit.

[Cadaverine]

That's one thing which turns me off Lord of the Fucking Runs for weeks at a time.

There's a whole series of levels (45-50?) where All Quests Lead To Elrond from Trollshaws and Misty Mountains with occasional guest moments from All The Other Quests Lead To Glorfindel.

Elrond tells you:
Go see Gloin.

(10 minutes later)

Gloin Tells you:
ok cool. Go see Elrond again.

It's immersive.  

Those fuckin' hobbit movies were boring as hell. All it was, was a bunch of people walking, three movies of people walking to a fucking volcano.

The whole 'go all the way across the map, back to the starter area' to turn in one quest thing is really annoying.  It wouldn't be so bad if there was some way to get there quickly, like portals, or something, but that's not gonna happen.  At least I have plenty of time to do homework while I wait for the horse/boat/griffon/whatever to arrive.

[HaemishM]

This is why I don't understand the epic amounts of Darkfall hate on this forum.

Years of vaporware hype? Douchebag "WILL MAKE YOU ITS BITCH" devs? Bugs so bad on release it would make one long for the salad days of Shadowbane?

[Mrbloodworth]

That's one thing which turns me off Lord of the Fucking Runs for weeks at a time.

There's a whole series of levels (45-50?) where All Quests Lead To Elrond from Trollshaws and Misty Mountains with occasional guest moments from All The Other Quests Lead To Glorfindel.

Elrond tells you:
Go see Gloin.

(10 minutes later)

Gloin Tells you:
ok cool. Go see Elrond again.

It's immersive.  

Those fuckin' hobbit movies were boring as hell. All it was, was a bunch of people walking, three movies of people walking to a fucking volcano.

The whole 'go all the way across the map, back to the starter area' to turn in one quest thing is really annoying.  It wouldn't be so bad if there was some way to get there quickly, like portals, or something, but that's not gonna happen.  At least I have plenty of time to do homework while I wait for the horse/boat/griffon/whatever to arrive.

LOTRO has been removing such things already.    Hes talking about a zone and level band that hasn't had its revamp yet.

[Sky]

I don't agree with DLRiley often, but statistically, most people do suck at golf.  It is a fact. 

I've been playing golf since I was old enough to swing a club. Turns out most people don't just suck at golf, they don't even know how to play. I can't keep a golf partner to save my life. They're all so uptight.

For instance, my grandfather watching me play at the 9 hole we had our camp at, trying to give me pointers on my (Slice? Hook? Goes to the left when I'm in a regular stance) swing. All of these complex ideas about how to swing, all the articulation and visualization tricks. I shrug and just aim to the right a bit.

For me, golf is about spending time in a nice groomed park with a silly game to guide you around. Walk or cart, both are fun. Need the cart for beer, though.

[Dark_MadMax]

This is why I don't understand the epic amounts of Darkfall hate on this forum.  The game has its issues (I stopped playing it, I can't really talk), but it has lots of these "old school" feeling mechanics.   It has most of the features people always say that they want, yet almost no one was even willing to try the game.  Is in the full loot/ open PvP mechanic that people don't like?  I know the PvP stuff is what people always focus on, but it has a deep crafting game, a more old school/quest light PvE game, and the spawn camping isn't nearly so bad as something like EQ.

Darkfall has all the fail-catass mechanics. Its huge grind to lvl, huge grind to gather resource.s Eveyrthing is catass grind there. there is no fun there. I never advocated long grinds - i think they are what was killing  old school MMOs .

There are bad old school mechanics and they are good ones. Darkfail has all of the bad ones exaggerated ten fold. It also failed on  sandbox concept. -It just 3d world. with absolutely nothing in there to do but very  simplistic and mind killing grind (hence why I mentioned one non instanced world is necessary prerequisite but not nearly sufficient one)

[Malakili]

So basically what I'm getting from this thread is:


I want that old school feeling, without having to actually play an old school game.  Maybe someone will invent a matrix style plug in that can tickle all your perfect MMO neurons without any of the parts you don't like.  Other than that, I don't think people will ever get what they want.  Too much people wanting to replicate a "feeling" and not enough people saying what they actually want from mechanics that would accomplish that feeling.  Until we can hash something useful out, all anyone here wants is to be transported back in time to when they had never played an MMO before to replicate that magic of the early ones.

[Ingmar]

Quite simply all of those mechanics you identify in Darkfall are exactly the ones that I was thinking of when I replied to Nebu about the will-always-be-niche stuff that WoW cut entirely. Despite our 80 page threads wailing about why can't we have something different, our tastes here are really pretty mainstream on average. Complicated crafting-is-required economies, getting your gear stolen by some dude who killed you, outdoor spawn camping - very few people actually want these things. Over and over again, games that do these things fail. At some point we'll stop saying "it is because none of them executed well" and will eventually realize that the market for this stuff is just really quite small compared to the overall market.

Eve is the one successful game in that zone, and is last I checked sitting somewhere in the mid 300,000s subscriber-wise. I'm thinking that's about the maximum upside for things like that.

[Paelos]

I want stats assigned to gathered materials that give better modifiers to player crafted items. Not all thorium veins are created equal.

[Slayerik]

I think I'm finally ready to admit it. Fuck MMOs. I'm too old for the bullshit. I'm tired of the same shit.

I'll still play Eve because it still feels the most like UO, and because offline training is cool.

[Dark_MadMax]

So basically what I'm getting from this thread is:


I want that old school feeling, without having to actually play an old school game.  Maybe someone will invent a matrix style plug in that can tickle all your perfect MMO neurons without any of the parts you don't like.  Other than that, I don't think people will ever get what they want.  Too much people wanting to replicate a "feeling" and not enough people saying what they actually want from mechanics that would accomplish that feeling.  Until we can hash something useful out, all anyone here wants is to be transported back in time to when they had never played an MMO before to replicate that magic of the early ones.

Ohh I personally know what exactly I d like to play. Heck I even have 100 page design document for it with all the details about specific game mechanics to make it work (now gimme  20 mill  so I can hire devs and artists to make it :) ) . Thread was not about this though originally lol.

It was about how everything calls itself MMO. and then basically about how MMO just degraded to being multiplayer games with 3d lobbies, losing the mmo part

[Sky]

Heck I even have 100 page design document for it with all the details about specific game mechanics to make it work

[Dark_MadMax]

Cuz I thought I would write it down for once instead or regurgitating same points over and over again on some pointless forums :) -see my post count! lurking ftw

[Arthur_Parker]

Post page 67 please.

[Typhon]

To re-iterate what others are saying, I'm still not clear on the "what makes a non-instanced game great".  Are people pining for the competition for resources (mobs)?  Was there spontaneous cooperation that made things fun?  Or is it just really a feeling that you exist in another world because everyone's character is there at all times?

I don't get it.  I found the mob-competition tedious and annoying.  I found the inevitable lag when there was an interesting game-world event very annoying.  Spontaneous cooperation was vanishingly rare because the game systems were set up to encourage selfish behavior.  "Getting to know" people in your game world is a lot like getting to know people in the real world, some you like, so you don't.  It never made the game more immersive for me.

I think you need to concisely define what it is you are looking for before you try to put a name (acronym) to it.  Four or five bullets-level concise.  And get a couple of people to agree on 60% of those bullets.