Re: LOTRO Goes Free to Play : Sept 10 (Sept 8 for Cool Kids)

[Modern Angel]

While I agree that the shift in focus to a WoW style loot grind has been somewhat dismaying you guys are playing a different game than I am if you don't think it's already populated by people named Chronicus Sweetleaf. There's never been an MMO, nor will there ever be one, that doesn't have a pretty shit community.

[Mrbloodworth]

Turbine knows exactly where LOTRO was going-- into the toilet.

I can't say I have seen anything that backs this up. If you wanted the best experiences in MMO's you have had two options. Wow (loot rat race), or LOTRO (story immersion). Everything else is miles behind in terms of development, implementation, content, and polish.

It can't be that I'm just biased is it? No offence to Soln, but on the grand scale of things, the stuff hes talking about, is just nitpicks. most of it is in process of being addressed (revamps), some of it, just isn't the this game. I mean, end game? Uh... Wrong game.

Dunno. When your whole game becomes predicated on pushing players to the cap so they can begin to grind their LI's that's not a nitpick.   And there's zero evidence AFAIK they plan to change anything I said.  

I think we have had this conversation before. LI are something you are choosing to focus on. And radiance is only for raids. Distinctly, those are two optional systems to the majority of the game, and still do not even come close to the "grind" as people say, of other titles.

In late 2010 and into 2011, we’re going to be working on improvements to the Item Advancement / Legendary Items system, to Radiance, and to the monster play system.

Looks like issue one, two and three. Right in that address. We will have to see if it pans out to the ideal some people want.

Speaking of, IXP in the cash shop anyone?  

[tazelbain]

I still have a bunch of DDO points, allowing my to spend them in Lotro would be great.  It feels kinda petty to have a restriction.

[Modern Angel]

Nonsense. You don't HAVE to grind in WoW, either. You can ignore gear completely. The fact is that LOTRO's endgame consists of running instances for Rad gear. That's the next best gear. LIs are part and parcel of the same process. None of it is required but that is what the game mostly consists of at cap.

[Sky]

If you wanted the best experiences in MMO's you have had two options. Wow (loot rat race), or LOTRO (story immersion). Everything else is miles behind in terms of development, implementation, content, and polish.

[Sjofn]

Rereading that Bloodworth quote makes me wonder what's EQ2's deal these days? I feel like it should be in the discussion somewhere, but maybe it's all but dead and I had no idea? I haven't tried it since the Play the Fey trial was new-ish (I totally made a fey monk, raar!). I had fun during the trial but something distracted me from actually signing up, I can't even remember what it was any more.

[Mrbloodworth]

If you wanted the best experiences in MMO's you have had two options. Wow (loot rat race), or LOTRO (story immersion). Everything else is miles behind in terms of development, implementation, content, and polish.

What.

[Soln]

Nonsense. You don't HAVE to grind in WoW, either. You can ignore gear completely. The fact is that LOTRO's endgame consists of running instances for Rad gear. That's the next best gear. LIs are part and parcel of the same process. None of it is required but that is what the game mostly consists of at cap.

BW is right that LI grinding and rad grinding are optional.  But realistically they're optional in the same way that grinding the Force Sensitive Slot in SWG was optional.  You didn't need to grind 32 professions et al. to unlock Jedi, but many people did and that grind (and the predictable large number of resulting Jedi) screwed up the game (debateable I know...).  In particular, non achieving things from PvP (civil war) to RP Entertaining to high end Crafting all were affected by the FS slot grind.

Everything is optional is a game.  But if the design incents and rewards players via lowered XP curves or more powerful gear to do one set of behaviors then the rest of the players are going to be affected by those designs, even if they don't participate.   For example, I don't care if people are running SH literally 57 times for their rad gear tokens, but if I need a group for 2.5.5 and I can't get one then I care.  And fixing that kind of scenario by making the Epic Stories solo'able I don't think solves the real problem.

[Morfiend]

F2P w/ Microtransactions is the future, Mr. Crotchety. 

Doesnt mean I have to like it. Also, we always say vote with your wallet. So I did.

I wouldnt mind if I could pay my monthly sub and get access to everything. But paying a sub and still having to pay MT makes me stabby.

What is a VIP? How will I become one?

      For a monthly fee, the VIP program offers the best value and the most options for players who like the convenience of having unlimited access to all game content and features. VIP players also receive 500 Turbine Points per month and exclusive benefits like priority access to servers, 5 character slots per server, a 20-slot wardrobe for cosmetic items, full customer service, and much more! You can upgrade to VIP at any time by visiting https://myaccount.turbine.com once LOTRO Free-to-Play is available. If you are already a subscriber, just maintain your active subscription to be automatically upgraded to VIP!

This isn't you?

Well, in DDO, even if your a subscriber you still need to purchase a lot of the MT stuff to do a lot of the content. I am worried they will do the same thing here.

[Ingmar]

Well, in DDO, even if your a subscriber you still need to purchase a lot of the MT stuff to do a lot of the content. I am worried they will do the same thing here.

Their chart says no, but we'll see.

[WindupAtheist]

Am I the only one who remembers LOTRO being spoken of as having garnered subscribers roughly on par with contemporary EQ1, followed by at least one of the higher-ups being shitcanned? The game was never that successful.

[tazelbain]

F2P w/ Microtransactions is the future, Mr. Crotchety. 

Doesnt mean I have to like it. Also, we always say vote with your wallet. So I did.

I wouldnt mind if I could pay my monthly sub and get access to everything. But paying a sub and still having to pay MT makes me stabby.

What is a VIP? How will I become one?

      For a monthly fee, the VIP program offers the best value and the most options for players who like the convenience of having unlimited access to all game content and features. VIP players also receive 500 Turbine Points per month and exclusive benefits like priority access to servers, 5 character slots per server, a 20-slot wardrobe for cosmetic items, full customer service, and much more! You can upgrade to VIP at any time by visiting https://myaccount.turbine.com once LOTRO Free-to-Play is available. If you are already a subscriber, just maintain your active subscription to be automatically upgraded to VIP!

This isn't you?

Well, in DDO, even if your a subscriber you still need to purchase a lot of the MT stuff to do a lot of the content. I am worried they will do the same thing here.

So name somethings that VIP need to buy in DDO so we continue this discussion.

[Morfiend]

F2P w/ Microtransactions is the future, Mr. Crotchety. 

Doesnt mean I have to like it. Also, we always say vote with your wallet. So I did.

I wouldnt mind if I could pay my monthly sub and get access to everything. But paying a sub and still having to pay MT makes me stabby.

What is a VIP? How will I become one?

      For a monthly fee, the VIP program offers the best value and the most options for players who like the convenience of having unlimited access to all game content and features. VIP players also receive 500 Turbine Points per month and exclusive benefits like priority access to servers, 5 character slots per server, a 20-slot wardrobe for cosmetic items, full customer service, and much more! You can upgrade to VIP at any time by visiting https://myaccount.turbine.com once LOTRO Free-to-Play is available. If you are already a subscriber, just maintain your active subscription to be automatically upgraded to VIP!

This isn't you?

Well, in DDO, even if your a subscriber you still need to purchase a lot of the MT stuff to do a lot of the content. I am worried they will do the same thing here.

So name somethings that VIP need to buy in DDO so we continue this discussion.

I don't know cause we haven't seen the store yet. But I bet it will be there.

[sam, an eggplant]

Seems like everybody who played LOTRO agreed that it was quality stuff, loved the graphics, immersion in the shire, and middle earth lore, but never managed to get into it over WoW. All I can remember from beta is that the combat was mushy and terrible. For whatever reason, it never clicked.

See, free play isn't just about the money. I could give a shit about fifty bucks (or whatever LOTRO costs now). It's the commitment spending fifty bucks implies that stops me from playing again. If I spend the money and still don't like it, I feel like a sucker. Getting over that hump is huge, and that's why freeplay is a good idea.

Same deal with the "premium" player level being unlocked by spending anything in their store. It gets you over that hump. Once you've taken out your creditcard, once you've overcome that mental blockage, spending more is easy.

As for the DDO store, it is supposedly theoretically possible to hit max level without paying a single penny, but word is you end up repeating a ton of content to do it. It's pretty easy to get to level 5 (which is more like level 40 in WoW, takes a couple of weeks your first time playing casually) but gets tougher past that. If you enjoy the game up to level 5, you'll probably want to buy some of their content. Which is perfectly fine, and how it should be. LOTRO is different in that it's not modular, so they're selling features more than content.

[tazelbain]

I don't know cause we haven't seen the store yet. But I bet it will be there.

You are concerned about the LotRO Store because of track record with DDO Store.  What in the DDO Store has you concerned?  What in the store are VIPs forced into buying? 

[Modern Angel]

Am I the only one who remembers LOTRO being spoken of as having garnered subscribers roughly on par with contemporary EQ1, followed by at least one of the higher-ups being shitcanned? The game was never that successful.

Best estimates I read were a peak of between 200k and 300k. It's pretty much been the second most successful MMO in the West for awhile now, release spikes for AOC, WAR and Aion not included.

[Morfiend]

I don't know cause we haven't seen the store yet. But I bet it will be there.

You are concerned about the LotRO Store because of track record with DDO Store.  What in the DDO Store has you concerned?  What in the store are VIPs forced into buying? 

1) Yes.

2) Its not so much a single item that has me concerned, its the fact that in order to get the same gameplay in DDO you got as a subscriber before they went F2P-MT, even if you subscribe to DDO, you still need to purchase items from the store. For example, the rest stones in dungeons. You realistically cannot get through some dungeons in DDO without usuing the rest shrine, you have to buy them from the store now, even as a subscriber.

3)

I don't know cause we haven't seen the store yet.

[Ingmar]

Essentially what you're saying is, you don't believe their chart. Which is fine, it isn't like their plans can't change or are even unlikely to change. But as of now the chart says subscribers aren't going to need to hit the shop for anything like that.

[Modern Angel]

Moreover I can't think of anything that's so required for a dungeon run in LOTRO as that rest stone dealy.

[LK]

Skimmed the thread, but focused on the Features List. That's pretty impressive.

[Merusk]

Funny thing... I still don't feel like playing it.  I tried it when the game was $9.99 last year, gave it a good solid try for a few days and decided I still enjoyed WoW more.   Even now I'd rather play anything else than be arsed to D/L and install it again.  Hell, I found  Runes of Magic and A Perfect World,l I found more fun, despite being grindy as hell. Am I alone in this?

[Morfiend]

Turbine Executive One: "I have an idea, we can sell them stuff to make more money."

Turbine Executive Two: "Nah, I think we're good".

 

Anyway, I have my feelings on it, you guys have yours. Guess the only thing left to do is wait and see. But I will consider myself right if a subscriber ever needs or even really wants to spend money in the store.

[Ingmar]

Turbine Executive One: "I have an idea, we can sell them stuff to make more money."

Turbine Executive Two: "Nah, I think we're good".

 

Anyway, I have my feelings on it, you guys have yours. Guess the only thing left to do is wait and see. But I will consider myself right if a subscriber ever needs or even really wants to spend money in the store.

Over and above the 500 points/month you get just for subscribing, I assume.

I *do* think a segment of subscribers will probably spend more than that on cosmetic stuff. People go nuts over that kind of thing.

[Fordel]

Only 3 bag slots is 

[tazelbain]

2) Its not so much a single item that has me concerned, its the fact that in order to get the same gameplay in DDO you got as a subscriber before they went F2P-MT, even if you subscribe to DDO, you still need to purchase items from the store. For example, the rest stones in dungeons. You realistically cannot get through some dungeons in DDO without usuing the rest shrine, you have to buy them from the store now, even as a subscriber.

You can buy "extra" shrines in the DDO Store.  There are hard missions that its handy to buy these extra shrines. But they were the same before DDO Store. The DDO Store just provided subscribers are option they didn't have before.

Anyway, I have my feelings on it, you guys have yours. Guess the only thing left to do is wait and see. But I will consider myself right if a subscriber ever needs or even really wants to spend money in the store.

LOL.  We are going play that game. I will just declare myself right right now.

[Morfiend]

2) Its not so much a single item that has me concerned, its the fact that in order to get the same gameplay in DDO you got as a subscriber before they went F2P-MT, even if you subscribe to DDO, you still need to purchase items from the store. For example, the rest stones in dungeons. You realistically cannot get through some dungeons in DDO without usuing the rest shrine, you have to buy them from the store now, even as a subscriber.

You can buy "extra" shrines in the DDO Store.  There are hard missions that its handy to buy these extra shrines. But they were the same before DDO Store. The DDO Store just provided subscribers are option they didn't have before.

Anyway, I have my feelings on it, you guys have yours. Guess the only thing left to do is wait and see. But I will consider myself right if a subscriber ever needs or even really wants to spend money in the store.

LOL.  We are going play that game. I will just declare myself right right now.

You can declare anything you want. But it wont make you any less wrong. 

I can refine my feelings on LOTRO going F2P-MT to this: If the game gives me a reason to spend more than my $15 a month sub fee, I am unhappy. Thats how I feel. I do not like it. For the type of gamer I am, and for what I enjoy doing in a MMO, this change amounts to them raising the price. I don't like that they are doing it, so I have canceled my subscription, and I have let them know in the exit interview how I feel.

I'm not saying its a horrible decision on the part of Turbine, hell, with the success of DDO F2P I think its a pretty smart move, but for me, I do not like it. And I will vote with my wallet.

I don't know how to be any more clear on the subject.

[tazelbain]

2) Its not so much a single item that has me concerned, its the fact that in order to get the same gameplay in DDO you got as a subscriber before they went F2P-MT, even if you subscribe to DDO, you still need to purchase items from the store. For example, the rest stones in dungeons. You realistically cannot get through some dungeons in DDO without usuing the rest shrine, you have to buy them from the store now, even as a subscriber.

You can buy "extra" shrines in the DDO Store.  There are hard missions that its handy to buy these extra shrines. But they were the same before DDO Store. The DDO Store just provided subscribers are option they didn't have before.

Anyway, I have my feelings on it, you guys have yours. Guess the only thing left to do is wait and see. But I will consider myself right if a subscriber ever needs or even really wants to spend money in the store.

LOL.  We are going play that game. I will just declare myself right right now.

You can declare anything you want. But it wont make you any less wrong. 

I can refine my feelings on LOTRO going F2P-MT to this: If the game gives me a reason to spend more than my $15 a month sub fee, I am unhappy. Thats how I feel. I do not like it. For the type of gamer I am, and for what I enjoy doing in a MMO, this change amounts to them raising the price. I don't like that they are doing it, so I have canceled my subscription, and I have let them know in the exit interview how I feel.

I'm not saying its a horrible decision on the part of Turbine, hell, with the success of DDO F2P I think its a pretty smart move, but for me, I do not like it. And I will vote with my wallet.

I don't know how to be any more clear on the subject.

Great, so to be clear any "reason" no matter how trivial reaches this bar.  Let's not over exaggerate the amount "reason" of the current DDO Store.  It's luxuries and shortcuts.

[Count Nerfedalot]

Rereading that Bloodworth quote makes me wonder what's EQ2's deal these days? I feel like it should be in the discussion somewhere, but maybe it's all but dead and I had no idea? I haven't tried it since the Play the Fey trial was new-ish (I totally made a fey monk, raar!). I had fun during the trial but something distracted me from actually signing up, I can't even remember what it was any more.

EQ2 is alive and well and probably the best game most people never gave a second chance.  It's really positioned somewhere halfway between WoW and LOTRO.  Its combat and adventuring leans a little more towards WoW, while its crafting and social options (housing, appearance, economy, etc) are better than LOTRO's and far better than WoW's.  I forget what Blood's excuse for dismissing it is, but it's laughably ignorant for someone who should know better.  If you're looking for a diku-style fantasy game where there are far more things to do than you have time for, solo, grouped, raid or PvP, then you should at least check it out.  It's not for everyone (nothing is) but it has a vast amount of very well-polished content that's actually fun to experience multiple times. 

[Numtini]

Best estimates I read were a peak of between 200k and 300k. It's pretty much been the second most successful MMO in the West for awhile now, release spikes for AOC, WAR and Aion not included.

I keep reading numbers like that, but honestly, I've never seen any indication of those kind of numbers in game. I like the game and all that, but I just never even saw EQ2 numbers on the actual servers, nevermind EQ1 or FFXI numbers.

[Fordel]

The only thing about EQ2 that I remember is that it looked like total shit and needed a computer that did not exist yet to run properly.

[UnSub]

Best estimates I read were a peak of between 200k and 300k. It's pretty much been the second most successful MMO in the West for awhile now, release spikes for AOC, WAR and Aion not included.

I keep reading numbers like that, but honestly, I've never seen any indication of those kind of numbers in game. I like the game and all that, but I just never even saw EQ2 numbers on the actual servers, nevermind EQ1 or FFXI numbers.

There were never any official confirmations outside of 4m LOTRO characters created, afaik. I'd heard that the peak was 400k active subscriptions close to launch, but that was a bit of a guess.

[Stabs]

http://www.mmodata.net/

While any industry data has to be taken with a grain of salt and accuracy for Lotro is rated C it's as good as anything else. Lotro is behind quite a number of games but that's partly because Asian numbers are not tracked separately (making Aion and WoW much higher than they would be otherwise).

I think it's safe to say Lotro is reasonably successful by comparison with any western game that isn't WoW. This move is not because they think Lotro is unhealthy but because Kate Paiz and others adore F2P systems to the point of evangelism. Their success with DDO gives them some justification.

[Lantyssa]

Awww, you linked to Sir Bruce.  This one's cute.  Can we keep it?

[Arthur_Parker]

Devs seem to get pissed off with the player obsession over sub numbers, it's true that players not on your server don't really affect you at all.  But good subscriber numbers indicate that the company is likely to be making a profit and therefore the game is likely to see continued investment/development, which is all we should really care about.

As Turbine did this with DDO you would normally assume they know what they are doing, but it's a mmo, so normal rules don't apply. The thing with LOTRO is they are adding large regions on a regular basis, so if this dramatically increases the numbers of players per zone, I think it will become a much more enjoyable game.

[NiX]

Awww, you linked to Sir Bruce.  This one's cute.  Can we keep it?

As long as you clean up after it.