Magnetic Morality

[Merusk]

Scientists Discover magnets can fiddle with moral judgements.

Twenty volunteers got TMS before or during the time they were listening to stories like the one about Grace and the coffee. The stimulation caused people to pay less attention to Grace's intention and more attention to the outcome, Young says.

"If no harm was done, then subjects would judge [Grace's behavior] as OK," she says, even if the story made it clear Grace was trying to poison her friend. That's the sort of moral judgment you often see in kids who are 3 or 4 years old, Young says.

Studies show that at this age, children will usually say a child who breaks five teacups accidentally is naughtier than a child who breaks one teacup on purpose, she says. That's probably because their brains are still developing the ability to understand the intentions of other people.

Listen to the story, because the transcript leaves some parts out.  Still, an interesting development in the understanding of humanity and human kind. 

I think it also lends to the notion that folks who have different moral judgments about situations are, in fact, brain damaged, and not just thinking differently.  Which is mildly uncomfortable.

[Samwise]

Piffle.  According to their own interpretation of the data, it's the ability to decipher intent that was knocked out.  Which is an important piece of making a moral judgement, and it's a very interesting experiment, but it's a big leap to claim that magnets neutralize morality or whatever.  You might as well say that blindfolds impair moral judgement because a study showed that people with blindfolds are unable to tell which of two potential murderers is holding a bloody knife.

[Musashi]

Everybody knows there's no such thing as morality.  C'ya later thread.

[NowhereMan]

I want to say this is a load of shit but there's no obvious link to an article so I'm left with no way of knowing what is actually being talked about. It sounds like maybe there's a portion of the brain (that cannot be accurately identified) that when subjected to intense magnetic forces, causes a person to pay less attention to intention and more to results of actions when assigning responsibility.

Now I know that sounds exciting but without reading more I'm willing to bet it's actually far less significant.

[Merusk]

I hope you're asking for a link to a greater story from the NPR story I linked and not just failing at Forum 101.

[Kail]

If something as complex as morality has a mechanical explanation, Green says, it will be hard to argue that people have, or need, a soul.

Fucking what.  A psych professor is saying this?  Is he, in any way, related to this experiment?  They couldn't get a neuroscientist or a philosophy major or someone who might actually understand either side of this argument?  God damn, I'm finding it hard to argue that people have or need a brain.  This is seriously supposed to be journalism?  "SCIENTIFIC STUDY PROVES THAT ELECTRICAL STIMULATION CAN IMPAIR JUDGEMENT p.s. all religion is a hollow lie"

[Murgos]

Uh, magnetic induction induces an electrical field and I'm pretty sure everyone knows what happens when you shock brain centers.  This is not news other than that it seems to be a non-invasive method for stimulating the brain, which could be kinda cool.

I'm not sure why the two bit psych analysis is in there other than that NPR has offices in Harvard Sq.

[Riggswolfe]

So, is this the lead up to remote mind control? And since it uses magnets will tinfoil hats actually protect me?

[Lantyssa]

Lead lining would help.

[bhodi]

As far as using magnets to influence thought, there have been several studies on it. There was one big article I read on it a while back. I wouldn't say it's common but it's a known and fast-developing field.

[Goreschach]

Lead lining would help.

Tinfoil is better.

[Lantyssa]

They're about equally useless.  Making them scramble for new materials would be funny though.

[Sheepherder]

Helmet mounted degaussing coil?

[Count Nerfedalot]

Helmet mounted degaussing coil?

wouldn't that wipe your brain of all thoughts?

[Sheepherder]

No, you need to arc electricity through the brain to get that strong an effect.

[IainC]

Intra-cranial van der Graaf generators for all!

[K9]

I want to say this is a load of shit but there's no obvious link to an article so I'm left with no way of knowing what is actually being talked about. It sounds like maybe there's a portion of the brain (that cannot be accurately identified) that when subjected to intense magnetic forces, causes a person to pay less attention to intention and more to results of actions when assigning responsibility.

Now I know that sounds exciting but without reading more I'm willing to bet it's actually far less significant.

LINK

[Cyrrex]

I just read a story the other day that boldy stated that massive head trauma can cause a 3rd grader to do poorly on his timed long division test. 

[NowhereMan]

So you're saying third graders may not have souls?

Also I had been referring to a lack of link to a journal article rather than news article, thanks Merusk. I was also quite drunk and crawled off to bed shortly after posting. The experiment really doesn't mean a lot from a moral perspective beyond showing that the mechanical side (not to say there's any other way, maybe mechanical perspective?) of how we think can be affected by non-visible forces and perhaps more precisely than we're used to dealing with. There's also some interesting experiments out there that claim a link with poor emotional processing and a predilection towards harder Utilitarian style moral judgements (so people are more accepting of stuff like killing one person and harvesting their organs to save 5 others).

[Aez]

No one as soul.  I don't even get the concept, it's supposed to be a magical essence that think for your physical body yet it stop working if you drink too much or get dementia.  Just a comment, a full discussion on this would get denned.

[Morat20]

I only start to think about souls when I think about Star Trek transporters. Or the A-Gates and T-Gates Charles Stross postulates.

While, on the one hand, I can totally see the benefit of having my body completely disassembled and put back together with all the broken bits fixed (or, as Stross points out -- better. Or looking like a centaur. Or having four arms. Or perhaps just taller. Really, whatever you want providing you can get the physics to work), on the other hand I'm a bit concerned that the "me" that comes out the other end is just a copy and I actually died.

Although it's sort of a moot point after the first trip through.

[Samwise]

Simak's version of teleportation in Way Station was the best for giving you the heebie-jeebies.  The technology would make a copy of you on the other end (no nice "matter-energy stream" like in Star Trek), and the "old" you would be euthanized and dissolved in acid.  Apparently after a while you just learn not to think about it.

[WindupAtheist]

People not used to thinking about it get reminded that they're really nothing more than the goop inside their skulls, become uncomfortable, film at eleven.

One would think "personality change" being a symptom of brain trauma would be adequate demonstration of that fact. Have you ever had someone you knew very well go into a coma and wake up a different person? I have, and while their medical problems are severe, they're nothing that should be able garble a "soul". They weren't attacked by a fucking wizard.

[Morat20]

They weren't attacked by a fucking wizard.

Ha!

Actually, I think the most famous case was a poor fellow 200 years ago that took a crowbar through the face. Although, according to Wikipedia, most of those stories are just tall tales.

In any case, I've never actually associated 'soul' with the bit of you that does all the thinking and deciding, if such a thing even exists. I suppose that's why I'm not thrilled with Star Trek transporters -- I'm not entirely sure that'd it be "me" on the other end, since I'm not really of the mind that there's some magical bit that follows me around.

I suppose it would rely on how well the copy was made, and the actual nature of consciousness. Still, I have to admit of Stross-style A-gates started hanging around, I'd happily use one to get rid of some pounds. :) Assuming they're not infected with Curious Yellow. (Which your personal state vector can travel the net, getting YOURSELF infected with a virus that then infects the machines that break you down and puts you back together, is sort of a bitch.)

[Aez]

Did he moved on and founded Black Mesa?

[Lantyssa]

In any case, I've never actually associated 'soul' with the bit of you that does all the thinking and deciding, if such a thing even exists. I suppose that's why I'm not thrilled with Star Trek transporters -- I'm not entirely sure that'd it be "me" on the other end, since I'm not really of the mind that there's some magical bit that follows me around.

You got obliterated.  NewYou wouldn't notice the difference though, and would be convinced they were You, even though they sprang into existence a few moments prior.  On the return trip NewNewYou would still believe themselves to be You.

[tazelbain]

Ya, this is a fun thing to think about.  I thought going under general anesthesia was kinda freaky.  It seemed like someone hit my 'off' switch.  

What the about how Multi-world Theory requires infinite clone generation constantly.  Are all the billions of you the same person?

[Kail]

People not used to thinking about it get reminded that they're really nothing more than the goop inside their skulls, become uncomfortable, film at eleven.

It's not about wanting to believe in faeries or some shit.  There are actual, serious philosophical arguments about the existence of souls, the nature of the human mind, that kind of thing.  For example, it's a fairly common contention in Dualism.  There are a lot of arguments in dualism, and maybe you can come up with some counter arguments or something, but at no point will it hinge on the infallibility of moral choices.  That is what fucking bugs me.  The guy does not know what he's talking about, or if he does, the journalist presented none of the relevant points of his argument.  It would be like me getting up and announcing that Relativity provides a theoretical basis for time travel, time travel is logically inconsistent, and therefore Einstein was wrong.  It's an argument that you might get over a cup of coffee with someone who knows nothing about the topic.

If the article was an argument about souls or something, I could see that comment fitting in, but the experiment has pretty much no impact on any of the arguments for or against, and this psych prof is citing it as scientific proof that God doesn't exist.  That's fucking ludicrous.

[NowhereMan]

Dualism isn't so popular anymore, though for my undergrad we had a professor that is very firmly one of them. He doesn't believe in immortal souls that can fly off or travel beyond our bodies or any of that, it's a metaphysical position rooted in logical identities (basically that the terms we apply to human minds cannot be applied to the physical stuff). Frankly you're never going to perform an experiment that proves him wrong, it would be like Escher claiming his pictures had disproved geometry.

[Morat20]

In any case, I've never actually associated 'soul' with the bit of you that does all the thinking and deciding, if such a thing even exists. I suppose that's why I'm not thrilled with Star Trek transporters -- I'm not entirely sure that'd it be "me" on the other end, since I'm not really of the mind that there's some magical bit that follows me around.

You got obliterated.  NewYou wouldn't notice the difference though, and would be convinced they were You, even though they sprang into existence a few moments prior.  On the return trip NewNewYou would still believe themselves to be You.

Unless conciousness is just a state machine. If it's not discrete -- or discrete on a finer level than you can map and copy -- no dice, it's faxing you not teleporting you. I suppose if you can model it as a wave and copy the wave --- but I think the finer bits of the brain's processes dip really close to the quantum level. And heck, I've often wondered if the "me" that wakes up in the morning, or from general anesthesia, is the "me" that went to sleep or went under the drugs as it is.

[Sheepherder]

So, I take it you guys are all fans of The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy?

[Merusk]

Ya, this is a fun thing to think about.  I thought going under general anesthesia was kinda freaky.  It seemed like someone hit my 'off' switch.  

What the about how Multi-world Theory requires infinite clone generation constantly.  Are all the billions of you the same person?

In as much as an 8 is the same as another 8, yes.

[Lantyssa]

Unless conciousness is just a state machine. If it's not discrete -- or discrete on a finer level than you can map and copy -- no dice, it's faxing you not teleporting you. I suppose if you can model it as a wave and copy the wave --- but I think the finer bits of the brain's processes dip really close to the quantum level. And heck, I've often wondered if the "me" that wakes up in the morning, or from general anesthesia, is the "me" that went to sleep or went under the drugs as it is.

If you can reproduce a complex biological being, enzymes and all, like a piece of plastic from a 3-D line printer, then yes, I believe it's just a state machine.

If you can't reproduce everything down to the atomic level, then you're not getting the same thing out and it will be different.  Some memories may be there as long as the neural pathways are laid down the same, but chemical imbalances, defects, and impurities would have such a drastic toll that essentially you're getting an 'identical' twin, if not a very close fraternal twin.  One that probably needs medical attention.

Regardless, if the ability is there to produce an exact copy, then it can be done multiple times.  All you end up with is a series of identical twins whose splits happen at the moment of production rather than in the womb.  They all think they're the original you, but time and differing experiences will make them You_n, You_n+1, ...You_n+m.

[Morat20]

Regardless, if the ability is there to produce an exact copy, then it can be done multiple times.  All you end up with is a series of identical twins whose splits happen at the moment of production rather than in the womb.  They all think they're the original you, but time and differing experiences will make them You_n, You_n+1, ...You_n+m.

What if you can merge them back? :) I'd be happy to fork off my conciousness a few dozen times and get some work done. David Brin's Kiln People was all about that, and it's a common theme in Stross' Accelerando and Glasshouse.

It's hard to die when you have hot copies of yourself scattered around, tend to back yourself up regularly, and whatnot.

As I said before, I'm not really sure the same "me" wakes up each morning as went to bed. I'm running on the same hardware, but chunks of my software got rebooted.

[Valmorian]

As I said before, I'm not really sure the same "me" wakes up each morning as went to bed. I'm running on the same hardware, but chunks of my software got rebooted.

Just look at photos of yourself as a child and try to rationalize that it's the same "YOU".  The body is COMPLETELY different, why would the mind be any less so?

Teleporters make for interesting philosophical discussions but the only difference between you being teleported and you growing up is that you have a continuity of consciousness (mostly) in the second case.  Although like you said, falling asleep kinda breaks that argument too.