Inception

[Vision]

[Johny Cee]

Speaking of Mal....

The actress who plays her is French, and the word "mal" is french for bad, evil, or ill.  Seems too easy that Mal is his evil or sickness that he has to purge.  Of course, it could be that anyone who actually knows "Mal" as a person is actually a projection...  while those that don't know Mal are actually part of the team sent in.  So Art and Micheal Caine are projections, while Ariadne (who asks who Mal is) isn't.

That would then have some implications on totems.  If Arthur is a projection, then totems may just be a crutch or creation of Cobb.  The only two dreamers we see with totems are Arthur and Cobb....  Ariadne makes one, but she makes a chess piece (which piece by the way?) and she shows it to Cobb.  It could just be a way of establishing a rapport.  The idea of a totem could be the crutch that Cobb uses to maintain that he isn't dreaming, and gives greater weight to the fact that his wife's most deeply held secret is the totem that he steals.  (Representing her belief in Limbo/dream's reality)

By stealing the totem, he assumed Mal's belief in the dream's reality which is why he is caught, and emphasizes the scene where he spins the totem while holding the gun.  By giving up the totem at the end of the film, he announces he's given up his belief in the dreams reality.

Edit:

Also, just because of the naming and the fact that he is miraclously restored to health, you have to wonder about parallels between Fischer and the Fisher King.

[Ozzu]

http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Inception-Explained-Unraveling-The-Dream-Within-The-Dream-19615.html?loc=interstitialskip

Some good stuff in there. Especially someone noticing a detail about the wedding ring that Cobb was wearing and how it might indicate whether he's dreaming or not.

[sickrubik]

Are we giving up on spoilering sutff? 

[Johny Cee]

Are we giving up on spoilering sutff? 

I work on the assumption most people see my avatar and a wall of text, and self-censor my posts out of existence.

[Ghambit]

Arthur was my favorite character by far, but I can't really figure out why.  His suits were just that awesome, I guess.

He was channeling Agent Smith from the Matrix.

As for the "totems:"

[proudft]

Arthur was my favorite character by far, but I can't really figure out why.  His suits were just that awesome, I guess.

He was channeling Agent Smith from the Matrix.

Well, I didn't like the Matrix, so I dunno if that works. 

I did notice the movie length, largely because it is cruel to make a movie that long with a lot of water imagery near the end.  And I peed right before the movie, I swear.   

[Typhon]

kicked me near instantaneously via a particularly hostile acquaintance I knew in reality.

Wow this isn't my experience at all.  I started controlling my dreams when I was pretty young.  Background: I used to have nightmares where the family was going over a big bridge in the station wagon and somehow I ended up outside the car hanging onto the side of the bridge.  Eventually I had had enough of that crap and just let go... and floated in the fog.  After that, I had awareness of and gradually more and more control over my dreams. NONE of the "projections" ever turned hostile because I had awareness of the dream (or was manipulating the dream).

[Ghambit]

kicked me near instantaneously via a particularly hostile acquaintance I knew in reality.

Wow this isn't my experience at all.  I started controlling my dreams when I was pretty young.  Background: I used to have nightmares where the family was going over a big bridge in the station wagon and somehow I ended up outside the car hanging onto the side of the bridge.  Eventually I had had enough of that crap and just let go... and floated in the fog.  After that, I had awareness of and gradually more and more control over my dreams. NONE of the "projections" ever turned hostile because I had awareness of the dream (or was manipulating the dream).

This particular exercise was for a WILD (wake induced lucid dream).  I slipped into trance and post-hypnogogia (after sleep but but before dreaming) I hit my "totem," became conscious, opened my eyes and popped out of my body.  Since this was my 1st time doing this it was fairly jarring, so my subconscious projected (basically my conscience) a strong voice gleaned from reality to essentially scream at me to get out.  It's a fairly common occurence for newb oneironauts... goes away soon for most after a few sessions.

Shamans speak of a similar occurence when slipping into trance via Peyote.  "Creatures" will pop into your head and try to compel you to leave, or in some cases try to force you to stay or do screwed up shit.    Essentially is just your projected "conscience" trying to grab some control.  

[Bunk]

First I'll say, I loved the movie. Now in to slight derail:

I actually had a fairly prolonged lucid dream last night, and I wonder if all the ideas this movie put in to my head helped to trigger it.

I've had a few over the years and always found them really fascinating. It's like you end up fighting against yourself to move the dream in the direction you want it to go. I can vivdly remember entering a room and deciding I wanted to close the door securly behind me. It was a room in a place from my childhood. The door in my dream was metal (obviously wasn't in reality) and I remember managing to swing it shut, only to find that the door wasn't as wide as the door frame - like a six inch gap. Apparently my subconcious had some issue with me closing that door.

So I pulled the handle sideways, stretching the door until it fit in to the frame. Dreams are fun.

Oddly, I also experienced the feeling of thinking I had woken from that dream when I really hadn't, and slipping in to a totally different dream. Shortly after I conciously realized that I was still dreaming, and it jolted me suddenly awake.

[Typhon]

So I pulled the handle sideways, stretching the door until it fit in to the frame. Dreams are fun.

I was surprised that there wasn't any of this in the movie (other than when Ariadne manipulates Cobbs dream).  This shit happens all the time in my dreams.  Everything is very fluid (malleable).

[proudft]

They gave an in-movie reason - that the dreamer's defenses get alerted faster.

The out-of-movie-reason is probably so we can have this very discussion about what parts of it are a dream and what aren't.  If there were purple fire-breathing unicorns flying around a molten lava landscape in half the movie and the rest was a normal rainy city, it would be a little obvious.

[Ghambit]

Just FYI, it IS possible

[bhodi]

If people are interested, there's a decent SA thread about lucid dreaming. It's one of those things I keep wanting to get around to trying, but never really do.

[Ghambit]

Bhodi, the best no-nosense, most contemporary instructional site for LD is www.lucidology.com.  This was formerly saltcube.com, then he went viral and had to go all infomercial.
If you follow his instructionals you will have great success with minimal effort, guaranteed.  Well worth the $10 for the 101 course and whatever else for the latter materials.

Currently he's the only guy really attacking the skill from a more combinative and practical viewpoint, rather then getting all holistic and new age like a lot of other authors.  His approach is very quick and mechanical.

[Vision]

Bhodi, the best no-nosense, most contemporary instructional site for LD is www.lucidology.com.  This was formerly saltcube.com, then he went viral and had to go all infomercial.
If you follow his instructionals you will have great success with minimal effort, guaranteed.  Well worth the $10 for the 101 course and whatever else for the latter materials.

Currently he's the only guy really attacking the skill from a more combinative and practical viewpoint, rather then getting all holistic and new age like a lot of other authors.  His approach is very quick and mechanical.

So if I give this guy my email do I get any actual info or just a brochure and info about paying him $?

[sickrubik]

It's gotten all Art Bell up in this thread.

[Ghambit]

Bhodi, the best no-nosense, most contemporary instructional site for LD is www.lucidology.com.  This was formerly saltcube.com, then he went viral and had to go all infomercial.
If you follow his instructionals you will have great success with minimal effort, guaranteed.  Well worth the $10 for the 101 course and whatever else for the latter materials.

Currently he's the only guy really attacking the skill from a more combinative and practical viewpoint, rather then getting all holistic and new age like a lot of other authors.  His approach is very quick and mechanical.

So if I give this guy my email do I get any actual info or just a brochure and info about paying him $?

You'll get some tidbits of useful info., quite a good bit actually.  But, also info. about paying him of course  .  Hey, the man has to make money.  It's a better investment than buying most LD books out there I guarantee you that.

[Samwise]

I am suspicious as hell of anyone who sells an indeterminate number of hazily priced "courses" and "materials" rather than putting what he knows into a book and letting you buy it.

[sickrubik]

Modern Snake Oil.

[Teleku]

That's ok, I'm sure I can just torrent the all the courses if I want.   

[sickrubik]

That negative energy is really going to hamper your dream walking, sir.

[Cadaverine]

Ahh you my friend have just experienced a shock awake!. Shock awake happens when your mind realizes your dreaming and it literally shocks you so much you wake up. Also know as a lucid jerk, or any other names they really suck. They suck hard. You'll get all amped that your lucid and then BAM you're awake. But shock awake can also happen when you try manipulation, as it can be too much for your mind, but we'll discuss potential ways around this later.

Hmm.  I wonder if this is what I experience.  Usually it takes me forever to fall asleep, but occasionally I doze off, and I'll be between consciousness, and sleep, and I'll just jerk awake like I stopped breathing, and my brain had to jump start my body, or something.

Just curious, is it possible to unconsciously manipulate your dreams?  It's never something I've consciously tried to do, but I recall having manipulated the dream quite often.  Like rewinding an interaction with someone in my dream, or whatever.  It seems to be more common when I'm close to waking, where I'm in that weird "kinda awake, but still dreaming" state.

[Ghambit]

I am suspicious as hell of anyone who sells an indeterminate number of hazily priced "courses" and "materials" rather than putting what he knows into a book and letting you buy it.

(most) All of his stuff is video material.  So you can either DL it or have it maiiled to you as a DVD.  A LOT of his stuff is free though, and then there's the forums.
He used to do all this in his free time and much of it was free, but then his popularity ballooned and just like everything else he had to commercialize and start spending more time on it.  Like I said, as someone who's spent LOTS of money on materials, his is the most worth it.

Just curious, is it possible to unconsciously manipulate your dreams?  It's never something I've consciously tried to do, but I recall having manipulated the dream quite often.  Like rewinding an interaction with someone in my dream, or whatever.  It seems to be more common when I'm close to waking, where I'm in that weird "kinda awake, but still dreaming" state.

Manipulation is a conscious act, which of course is the whole point.  "Unsconscious manipulation" is just an instance where you've remembered you've dreamed and recall that your mind changed things on-the-fly...  which is not lucid dreaming and not consciousness.  Dreaming's main function is to prep. the mind via simulation, so unconscious "manipulation" is a necessity to make it work (the mind subtly alters dreams to test itself in varying situations), otherwise your mind/body would not be able to function properly when awake.

Now, there are tricks to unconsciously manipulate your dreams beyond what you speak of.  But, I wont go into that here.
(I feel the /rolleyes on me)

[Vision]

Ahh you my friend have just experienced a shock awake!. Shock awake happens when your mind realizes your dreaming and it literally shocks you so much you wake up. Also know as a lucid jerk, or any other names they really suck. They suck hard. You'll get all amped that your lucid and then BAM you're awake. But shock awake can also happen when you try manipulation, as it can be too much for your mind, but we'll discuss potential ways around this later.

Hmm.  I wonder if this is what I experience.  Usually it takes me forever to fall asleep, but occasionally I doze off, and I'll be between consciousness, and sleep, and I'll just jerk awake like I stopped breathing.

I had an experience like this this afternoon. I fell asleep and actually became lucid, except instead of being shocked awake, I was shocked awake into another dream in which I thought was reality. So I was essentially mad at myself for losing my lucidity in a separate dream.

[Ghambit]

Learn to do your reality checks right after waking, along with doing them periodically throughout the day.  If you dont have a sleep mask with a light, then make a totem like in the movie... one that will react oddly in a universe with bent physics.  Carry it with you and play with it regularly.  There are easier, more stealth ways to do the checks but I cant recall them off-hand aside from the simple act of looking into a mirror.  I believe doing intricate positions with your hands may work also.

[Samwise]

I had an experience like this this afternoon. I fell asleep and actually became lucid, except instead of being shocked awake, I was shocked awake into another dream in which I thought was reality. So I was essentially mad at myself for losing my lucidity in a separate dream.

That happens to me too.  Dirty trick for my subconscious to play IMO.

[Kitsune]

I've never experienced any hostility in lucid dreams.  As soon as I've realized I was in a dream, godmode kicked in, the dream's 'plot' more or less went on hold, and I just messed around until I woke up.  My ability to affect significant changes in the surroundings were somewhat limited, though.  I managed to make items appear, but that was about the extent of it.  And when I decided I wanted to wake up, I did, looked over to check my watch, and went back to sleep.  It wasn't until later that I realized that the watch had red glowing numbers like my alarm clock, opposed to the green numbers on my actual watch.  Stupid dream suckered me.

[Comstar]

That was a good movie. Even if at the end there I was watching someone else play the Snow level from Call of Duty Modern Warfare II. I kept expecting someone called Soap to show up.

I also would think of such a technology existed, people wouldn't use it for mere training or stealing idea's, everyone would end up like Mal and stay in dreams forever.

[Samwise]

I also would think of such a technology existed, people wouldn't use it for mere training or stealing idea's, everyone would end up like Mal and stay in dreams forever.

If you want to spend the rest of your life in a joyous fantasy land while your body wastes away, you can just liquidate your assets and spend it all on meth.   

[Bzalthek]

Not quite the same.  Being a meth head has a lot more negative side effects.  Perpetually being in a controlled dream would be very attractive to a lot of people.  It would be a downright epidemic.  People would stay in that condition until their bodies finally failed, and they'd never have to experience any of the privations of the real world as their life snuffed out.

[Samwise]

Not quite the same.  Being a meth head has a lot more negative side effects.  Perpetually being in a controlled dream would be very attractive to a lot of people.  It would be a downright epidemic.  People would stay in that condition until their bodies finally failed, and they'd never have to experience any of the privations of the real world as their life snuffed out.

If you could pay someone to keep your body alive and hooked up to all those magical sedatives, I'm sure you could pay someone to hook you up to some existing drug cocktail that would make your life seem blissful even as your teeth started falling out.

Or, if you've got nothing to live for in the real world and you're on a budget, take a big hit of some really happy drug, and then step in front of a train before it wears off.  You won't be conscious of anything that happens after that.

[Bzalthek]

I'm sure that's a possibility, but jumping in front of a train is an active and messy thing, but dreaming to death not only has that romantic appeal but also won't cause as much a commotion.  Considering women traditionally suicide in a manner that doesn't disfigure and leaves a relatively attractive corpse, this would probably become their leading means of suicide.  Also the elderly, especially those who feel they're a burden upon the family.  Drugging out, while personally enjoyable I'm sure, still has a visible stigmata of causing trouble for those around you.  With the time extension and the limbo trap, holing up someplace for 3 or more days to starve to death while you're in a personal heaven is certainly going to cause some appeal. 

We've got people dying today because they're too hooked into MMO's or whatever game they're obsessively playing.   I don't see it as implausible that such a technology is excessively abused.

I want to point out that I'm not against such a technology, if it were possible to develop it, because of this.  There's a lot of good that can be achieved as well.  Imagine being able to go to school in your sleep, or for bedridden/paralyzed patients therapy.

[Samwise]

I'm sure there'd be cases of abuse, but I think it'd only be among people who had nothing to live for to start with.  And I'd question how many of those would have the financial wherewithall or motivation to get it all set up, since it seems like you need help and training to do all that fancy dream shit, and the technology/drugs would probably be heavily regulated to boot.  

Most people actually do have concerns that go beyond diddling the pleasure centers of their own brains, which is why most of us don't sit around in drug-induced stupors all day.  That's all I'm saying.

[Bzalthek]

That is true.  I seem to be taking for granted that this would be a common use technology, which is probably false.  I keep thinking back to the Ringworld books by Niven.  If I recall correctly they had guys who were addicted to some device which constantly stimulated the pleasure centers.  That's generally what I'm thinking about though without a world/culture that can support a large number of pleasure addicts.

I would however like to point out that one reason certain drugs are so highly addictive is because the high becomes more important than those other concerns.  A lot of us never bother with shit like that because we see the end product too frequently.