Planetside 2

[Shatter]

This better be good, and by that, I mean the game I have in my head.

APB again?   

[Mrbloodworth]

This better be good, and by that, I mean the game I have in my head.

APB again?   

No, two different styles of games there.

[Ghambit]

So, who's the designated f13 'press ganger' this time?

[Lantyssa]

No, two different styles of games there.

It will still end in tears.

[Nebu]

This whole thread has me wondering if anyone could invent a persistent FPS game sticky enough to fit a subscription model.  I just can't see how you could get players to stick around without offering achievements or advancement pathways that would rapidly imbalance any game mechanics.  

[Rasix]

This whole thread has me wondering if anyone could invent a persistent FPS game sticky enough to fit a subscription model.  

Short answer: no.

Long answer: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

[Malakili]

This whole thread has me wondering if anyone could invent a persistent FPS game sticky enough to fit a subscription model.  I just can't see how you could get players to stick around without offering achievements or advancement pathways that would rapidly imbalance any game mechanics.  

WW2Online.

Edited to add: To clarify - A large persistent ongoing war, there are ranks to go up in army, navy and airforce (that allow you to access new kinds of things to spawn as, i.e. sniper).  This remainds balanced because there are a limited about of kinds of spawns in any given army that is stationed in a town. So there are say, 100 submachinegunners available, if you are high enough rank to use it, you can spawn in as one, when 100 people die playing as it, you are out of them until that area is reinforced with a new army or it respawns (7 hours after it dies it is replaenished I think?).  The campaigns reset when one side wins, with campaigns lasting from a few weeks to a couple months from my experience.

WW2O is clearly as much Sim as shooter, but I don't see why you couldn't apply more action oriented gameplay to a similar system.

[Nebu]

WW2Online.

I should have added the word "successful" to my statement. 


Edit: I really enjoyed WWII Online, but it is a very small niche. 

[Malakili]

WW2Online.

I should have added the word "successful" to my statement. 


Edit: I really enjoyed WWII Online, but it is a very small niche. 

I think the niche arises from the sim aspects more so than the overall structure.  Its hard to play, its unforgiving, and the pace is relatively slow compared to most shooters.  But like I think I said earlier, why wouldn't a game like this work with say, CoD pacing of combat?  Or even Battlefield Bad Company 2, to pick something slightly slower but with vehicles that more closely approximate WW2O.

[Ghambit]

This whole thread has me wondering if anyone could invent a persistent FPS game sticky enough to fit a subscription model.  I just can't see how you could get players to stick around without offering achievements or advancement pathways that would rapidly imbalance any game mechanics.  

A well designed FPS with advancements never imbalances the game due to the simple fact that organized teamplay trumps all.  Go play 2142 or Arma on a tacticalgamer server or some such and see what I mean.  Gear imbalances only matter (much) in lone-wolf situations, which are contrary to the MMO (or most modern FPS's post doom/wolfenstein/quake) to begin with.  And only a dumbass brings a knife to a gunfight.  You lone-wolf against someone with a tac-nuke, you deserve to have a bit of 'game imbalance' shoved up your ass.  

I feel your concern though.  The key to me is offering advancement that also doesnt have a direct effect on mechanics.  This usually ends up being some kind of strat. metagame or quasi-HQ situation wherein many times you're not even shooting your gun...  you're shifting men and materiel around, training officers, managing VOIP, etc.  In this sense, there needs to exist an officer corp along with 'ribbons' perhaps denoting individual achievement.

Above all this.  The game worlds themselves need to be large and compeling enough for one to even WANT to persist in the 1st place.  Having maps that can be rolled in a day are no fun unless theres some kind of overarching mechanic that it influences.

As for WW2O, it failed for one reason alone.  ONLY ONE MAP.

[Malakili]

As for WW2O, it failed for one reason alone.  ONLY ONE MAP.

I disagree.  Sure, a pacific theatre that emphasizes the navy over the army would be neat, or east europe theatre that has snow rules in effect, blizzards, etc would be interesting, and so forth.  But if that game added those things the brutal learning curve and pretty slow pace would still drive a lot of people away.

[Mrbloodworth]

The failing of most MMOFPS is the use of power progression and numbers. This is where Planetside was ahead of its time, and got it right.

Every item had utility. There was no +1. There should never be.  You do not make guns with numbers, you do not make items that have no utility (AKA Fireball, and fireball called something else but more powerful). Progression is in the number of available options at even given time or encounter. Not piling on more and more power. No headshots. Large "health pools" that allow for shootouts (Where APB went wrong, but GA is doing right).

Other combination's will fail.

[Nebu]

The difficulty that I see being hardest to overcome is the love affair that MMO gamers have with the time = power paradigm.   Most people (including myself) will only ever be average at best when it comes to an FPS environment.  That will require some creativity to level the playing ground between most gamers and the elite few.  Otherwise these games devolve into nothing more than a shooting gallery for gamers with crazy FPS skills.

[Mrbloodworth]

The difficulty that I see being hardest to overcome is the love affair that MMO gamers have with the time = power paradigm.   Most people (including myself) will only ever be average at best when it comes to an FPS environment.  That will require some creativity to level the playing ground between most gamers and the elite few.  Otherwise these games devolve into nothing more than a shooting gallery for gamers with crazy FPS skills.

Planetside had a huge support for those with lesser twitch skills (Engineering, Medic, driving, flying, Hacking, ADV hacking, Support vehicle). This was also key for much of the love for the title. Something else APB got wrong (it had one, driving).

The main point though, Utility, not ever increasing numbers.

[Nebu]

Planetside had a huge support for those with lesser twitch skills. This was also key for much of the love for the title. Something else APB got wrong (it had one, driving).

It's like I played a completely different game.  I tried to like planetside for 2 months.  The problem I had with the game was that I was relegated to roles that I found neither fun nor interesting.  I also hated that I had to switch gear builds all the time.   Give me an inventory and let me manage it in real time. 

[Mrbloodworth]

Planetside had a huge support for those with lesser twitch skills. This was also key for much of the love for the title. Something else APB got wrong (it had one, driving).

It's like I played a completely different game.  I tried to like planetside for 2 months.  The problem I had with the game was that I was relegated to roles that I found neither fun nor interesting.  I also hated that I had to switch gear builds all the time.   Give me an inventory and let me manage it in real time. 

Why would you have to switch cert load outs all the time? Did you mostly PUG or something? Unless you mean gear load outs, ala Equipment terminals (where you could have 10 presets).

Limited equipment and limited certs are part of balancing the game. It was team based after all. (until the end)

[bhodi]

A bunch of us led by Stephen Zepp (where did he go? I'd like to get his take on GG/Instant Action/Torque folding) played planetside for a few months. It was a ton of fun, though the game was already semi-dying at that point. It did a lot of things right. Mostly, though, it was who you played it with.

I want Planetside 2 so badly, but I suspect this won't be the grail I'm looking for.

[Nebu]

Mostly, though, it was who you played it with.

Game designers need to repeat this 100 times. 

If you want to charge a subscription fee, you need to find fun and interesting ways of getting your players to want to play together.  My personal inclination in games is to avoid other people at all costs.  If they can create a mechanism to enhance my fun through positive reinforcement in cooperation, then they've won my $$$. 

Planetside, like other MMOs, encourages players to form elite warbands.  That makes for a really fun game if you already come to the game with a group of like-minded gamers.  If you're someone like me that will need to find a group to play with, the game becomes unfun in a hurry. 

[Mrbloodworth]

Well, thats kind of the nature of team based games.  Team based games are not ever really suitable for PUG or solo gameplay. Nothing needs to change there. With exception of, yes cooperation should be reinforced, and it was in Planetside.

[01101010]

A bunch of us led by Stephen Zepp (where did he go? I'd like to get his take on GG/Instant Action/Torque folding) played planetside for a few months. It was a ton of fun, though the game was already semi-dying at that point. It did a lot of things right. Mostly, though, it was who you played it with.

I want Planetside 2 so badly, but I suspect this won't be the grail I'm looking for.

Stop thinking there is a grail to begin with. I doubt anyone on these boards can ever find it... Just chalices we will drink from and gauntlets we throw at people. But it IS nice to dream.

PS was insanely fun from beta till the first expansion.  It was starting to lose its grip before the dumb ass superman caverns came out, but it still was the only game I was loading up at the time. ...and that was even with the imbalanced stuff (f-n-f Stryker, AI pounder max  , surge-ile jackhammers w/triple shot, Magmowers, etc).

I give SOE some leeway here since they have PS's life history to draw from. Not that they won't find a way to fuck that up... but that is to be determined. Inevitable? Probably.

[Ghambit]

My lil' bro's 1st foray into the world of MMOs was PS.  He was one of those people who didnt have 'like-minded' gamers to play with.  He just logged on and proceeded to find a worthy squad to join up with.  He did, and they so happened to be ridiculously elite wherein he wasnt, but given time and some training from them he became so (regardless of gear or rank).  To this day, it's still the best gaming experience he ever had.  This, to me, is the essence of what a non-sandbox FPS MMO should be.

And realize this, PS's only real failure was having to compete in the new burgeoning Diku-MMO renaissance.   There wasnt a chance in hell it'd hold subs against SWG and WoW.  I lost my whole fucking Clan to SWG.  A high lvl commander with literally nothing to do, let alone anything to shoot at.  So I /ragequitted like everyone else and never came back 'cept to peak in now and then.

This time, there isnt much to compete against once they release 'cept for Rifts.   
(rinse, wash, repeat is repetitious)

[Surlyboi]

Well, thats kind of the nature of team based games.  Team based games are not ever really suitable for PUG or solo gameplay. Nothing needs to change there. With exception of, yes cooperation should be reinforced, and it was in Planetside.

That's the thing though, me and the then missus played as a sniper/spotter duo for a long time and when we didn't play with each other, we tended to solo as that lone harasser that roamed around the hills popping your CE shit and hacking your towers. We still had a blast. PS catered to a lot of different playstyles. We were't fucking TRX, but we were still a force that could draw out an entire squad at times and put them down.

[Mrbloodworth]

I didn't say it was impossible, I guess it depends on your expectations and personal skill level.

I agree, and was trying to point this out before, PS catered to many many play styles. Had something for everyone. It was brilliant in this regard. Even in my outfit, I ran with a small subset in a marauder. We killed biffers and ran stick and move assault. our certs complemented each other, and we had spare gear in the trunk as well as shields and cloaks. In this way we assisted the commander (for that evening) goal.

Was good times.

Speaking of, I really hope this new version has a command structure.

[Surlyboi]

Jesus, you've thought a lot about that, haven't you, Sir Bruceworth? 

[Ghambit]

Where the hell did you get that flowchart?

[shiznitz]

I am not a hardcore FPS person at all and I had lots of fun when I played PS with an organized group. I think there is a market for this and with the MMO market now stratified into WoW and everything else, a tightly budgeted game should be able to make money at 100,000 subs.  The one thing it has to have is a way for the game world to change.  Structural and geographic stasis led to tactical repetition in PS.

[Mrbloodworth]

Where the hell did you get that flowchart???

Iv posted this all before.

http://www.planetside-idealab.com/index.shtml

That is years worth of player base designs and additions that were never used SOME were used, but not enough mostly due tot he way the engine and game were originally crafted.

[Sky]

One thing I loved in PS, much like bf1942: roleplaying.

In bf1942 it was straight crazy taxi. Pull up behind the lines near a spawn and start beeping the horn until someone jumped in, drive them to the front lines.

In PS, I tended more toward Bubba's ATV Adventure, just riding a four-wheeler around the battlefield like a redneck on crank; shoot, don't shoot, who cares. Jumps!

Also, hours and hours of playing Inf vs Inf.

[Nebu]

Also, hours and hours of playing Inf vs Inf.

This is what I want.  Infantry battles.  None of that tank/mech/ship/plane shit.  Lengthy and strategic ground wars.  I loved the maps in BF1942 that limited tank and plane contact as territory was decided by the better infantry tacticians. 

I also want rainbow unicorns and flying bigfoots. 

 

[Mrbloodworth]

He meant infiltrator. (quite sure)

There were lots of infantry battles. Technically thats what the caves were, urban combat. It was just too alien and added way to much to the landmass.

[Nebu]

There were lots of infantry battles. Technically thats what the caves were, urban combat. It was just too alien and added way to much to the landmass.

I hated the caves.  I'm not exactly sure why.  I always felt like I was just running around in there without any purpose.

[Mrbloodworth]

There were lots of infantry battles. Technically thats what the caves were, urban combat. It was just too alien and added way to much to the landmass.

I hated the caves.  I'm not exactly sure why.  I always felt like I was just running around in there without any purpose.

The zip lines, and the vertical nature of the map did that. like i said, Technically urban combat, just WAY to alien for us humans.

[Nebu]

Thinking about it more, I think the reason why PS never appealed to me was that I never felt like my actions had any impact on the world or the battle.  From a reality standpoint, this makes sense as each individual soldier is just a pawn.  From a gaming perspective, it left me cold and uninterested in logging on.  

The last few weeks that I played were just mostly to bs with the other people in ventrilo.  DAoC kept me much more interested and engaged in the pvp war between factions.

[Sky]

Infiltrator vs Infiltrator. Like spy vs spy. Two infs, trying to track down each other's supply line, tackle towers and disrupt the other's placements. Lots of fun.

I don't care about impact, it's all illusory anyway. I get into it for the cool situations, part of why I like three factions, so you get that chaos factor thrown in. Being at a stalemate over a piece of land, trying to outflank each other or try a new tactic and BLAM in rolls the third faction.

[Mrbloodworth]

Thinking about it more, I think the reason why PS never appealed to me was that I never felt like my actions had any impact on the world or the battle.  From a reality standpoint, this makes sense as each individual soldier is just a pawn.  From a gaming perspective, it left me cold and uninterested in logging on.  

The last few weeks that I played were just mostly to bs with the other people in ventrilo.  DAoC kept me much more interested and engaged in the pvp war between factions.

I can definitely understand that. But, from what I have read from you in the past, you had a rather stable, stable of people in DAOC.

Wanted to say in the last post, I was never really a fan of the caves, I did like the mods and guns however. Just not the caves themselves.