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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Warhammer Online (Moderator: tazelbain)  |  Topic: GDC Austin: Warhammer Online's Biggest Mistakes 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: GDC Austin: Warhammer Online's Biggest Mistakes  (Read 19759 times)
Delmania
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Posts: 674


Reply #70 on: September 23, 2009, 10:52:06 AM

Population imbalance in DAoC was usually fixed by temporal realm alliances, which only made the game more fun for everyone involved.

Also, pre-ToA DAoC was 8 god damn years ago, in that time period, instead of improving their successful game system of RvR and learning from past mistakes, they dismissed everything that made DAoC a "hit" and launched the piece of shit abomination everyone played and uninstalled around December 2008.

Still, I would pre-order DAoC 2  awesome, for real

Why?  The company made several mistakes in DAoC, then tried to apply a series of bandaid fixes for years without understanding the root cause.  They then repeated those mistakes in Warhammer as well as added new ones, which is sad because in all cases, their design did indicate they learned the lesson but did not understand the reason.  While Mark Jacob's leave may indicate better management, the company hasn't really changed from DAoC to Warhammer, and DAoC is not quite as good as most people remember it to be.

Nebu
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Reply #71 on: September 23, 2009, 11:26:18 AM

While Mark Jacob's leave may indicate better management, the company hasn't really changed from DAoC to Warhammer, and DAoC is not quite as good as most people remember it to be.

DAoC is better than any other pvp title out for sandbox style play IF you have a regular group and IF you have a good understanding of gameplay mechanics. If Mythic made a DAoC 2, I would play it for at least the first month purely because no other Fantasy MMO has pvp worth playing at the moment. 


"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Aez
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Reply #72 on: September 23, 2009, 06:26:26 PM

DAOC sandbox???
Nebu
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Reply #73 on: September 24, 2009, 09:54:57 AM

DAOC sandbox???

Is there a question in there somewhere?

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Demonix
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Reply #74 on: September 24, 2009, 11:20:50 AM

DAOC sandbox???

Is there a question in there somewhere?

No no, he just has to go feed the Rail sys...i mean horses now.
Arthur_Parker
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Internet Detective


Reply #75 on: September 24, 2009, 01:07:43 PM

DAOC sandbox???

Is there a question in there somewhere?

You mean sandbox as two thirds of the players spend most of their time hidden behind massive walls and you can only make objects using approved molds.  Not sandbox as the guy next to you is making a sand replica of his penis, right?
Nebu
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Reply #76 on: September 24, 2009, 02:04:58 PM

You mean sandbox as two thirds of the players spend most of their time hidden behind massive walls and you can only make objects using approved molds.  Not sandbox as the guy next to you is making a sand replica of his penis, right?

I meant sandbox as in "you can choose which type of pvp metagame to participate in".  Open RvR has the 1v1 and small group.  It had the 8v8 sport players.  It had zerg on zerg.  Keep takes, tower baiting, relic captures, DF opening, and even different games in the labyrinth.  DAoC was a lot less directed than the MMO games with a pvp component since.  Maybe Aion will change that?  I don't know.

I'm guessing that a lot of this existed due to the social interaction of the playerbase rather than game mechanics.  Perhaps this is a benefit of a niche game over a mainstream title.  

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Redgiant
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Reply #77 on: September 24, 2009, 07:02:41 PM

You mean sandbox as two thirds of the players spend most of their time hidden behind massive walls and you can only make objects using approved molds.  Not sandbox as the guy next to you is making a sand replica of his penis, right?

I meant sandbox as in "you can choose which type of pvp metagame to participate in".

I'm guessing that a lot of this existed due to the social interaction of the playerbase rather than game mechanics.  Perhaps this is a benefit of a niche game over a mainstream title.  

This. This. And This.

Don't underestimate the power of player dynamics as a primary driver of what makes a game interesting and "different" each day you log into it. All content-reliant games get old, even WoW. Human interaction (you know, what the two M's are supposed to stand for) can enable a fresh feel indefinitely with the right attention and focus on making it so. Sure, those are the same keeps you took yesterday, and last week and last month. But in DAoC, it was the overall war effort and varying strategic and tactical considerations that were ever-changing that you cared about and noticed.

Early DAoC had that in spades. Everything was real-time, no instances, and all coordination with other people in large guilds and small groups mattered.

So yes, it was sandbox in the ways that really matter.


As for nich, for 3 years (2001-2004) it always had at least 200k and often 250k or more subs. Even by today's increased numbers expectations that is a lot, and back then it was second only to EQ (which it was actually sucking people away from early on).


A FUCKING COMPANY IS AT STEAK
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #78 on: September 25, 2009, 01:24:09 AM

I wasn't knocking DAoC, but even in pvp what it allowed you to do was very defined by the overall design of the game.  The fact that DAoC worked fairly well compared to UO, AC1 darktide, SB etc is because it was less sandbox than those, not more.
Sobelius
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Reply #79 on: September 25, 2009, 01:26:03 PM

I wasn't knocking DAoC, but even in pvp what it allowed you to do was very defined by the overall design of the game.  The fact that DAoC worked fairly well compared to UO, AC1 darktide, SB etc is because it was less sandbox than those, not more.

IMHO the early DAOC subs were not so much due to pvp but rather the PvE crowd that was not interested in EQs corpse-run "game-within-a-game", the spawn camping, the numbingly awful drop rates, the spellcaster "medding" interface, the mob trains, the ... you get the idea. Basically, the DAOC masses were looking for something PvE that wasn't a second job, as EQ was, or wasn't as oddly unfulfilling as Asheron's Call (though I played AC for 2 years and loved it).

"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
"A world without Vin Diesel is sad." -- me
Venkman
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Reply #80 on: September 28, 2009, 08:13:48 AM

This.

DAoC didn't open up a whole new world of PvP for people coming from UO and AC1, because the PvP in those games was so radically different than the eventual promise DAoC achieved. Rather, DAoC was a shot straight across EQ1's bow: better UI, less punishing game mechanics. This did more to push SOE to start migrating away from The Vision than anything else until CoH did so even more.

DAoC now is a PvP haven for the people that went that route, and stuck with DAoC long enough for Mythic to evolve it for the PvP audience.
Numtini
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Reply #81 on: September 29, 2009, 01:42:29 PM

Quote
The company made several mistakes in DAoC, then tried to apply a series of bandaid fixes for years without understanding the root cause.  They then repeated those mistakes in Warhammer as well as added new ones, which is sad because in all cases, their design did indicate they learned the lesson but did not understand the reason.

I don't think you can possibly underestimate the danger of a sequel game repeating the same mistakes as the original. With a sequel game, you have a core who know your game. They might not play it anymore, but they know it. They've played it. They can form the core of a new game. But if you repeat the mistakes, you disproportionately irritate the very people who should be your most loyal customers.

See also EQ2 at launch.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
Arthur_Parker
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Reply #82 on: September 30, 2009, 02:59:34 AM

v1.3.2 PTS Patch Notes

Quote
All new characters that join the Realm of Destruction will now begin the game in the Chaos starting area, no matter their race.
All new characters that join the Realm of Order will now begin the game in the Empire starting area, no matter their race.
...
New players will automatically be placed in a 'new player guild', one for each Realm, to facilitate communication among those new to the game, or those who are rolling up an alt character, and to make finding a group a bit easier.
...
* We are pleased to introduce the new Apprentice system. Apprenticeship will allow you to ask any groupmate to become your Rank, no matter whether you're higher-Rank or lower-Rank than they are, so that the two of you may adventure together. To Apprentice someone, just right click on the portrait of person you wish to Apprentice in the group or warband and select the "Make Apprentice" option. Their stats and gear will transparently scale to become appropriate for your Apprenticed rank! Please note that while under the effects of Apprenticeship, you will not be able to queue for scenarios that are not available at your natural Rank. Abilities which would be too high for your Apprenticed rank will become temporarily unusable.

Ok I normally say something just to avoid quoting a block of text, but there's nothing much to say about WAR at this point.

Vn thread about this got locked on the 2nd page despite two dev posts.

Quote from: Andy_Mythic
Let's be realistic here.

The most played pairing in T1 is EvC. Not EVERYONE plays EvC but the vast majority of players, new and old, play this pairing. Whether it's for the PVE experience or the RvR experience (the more likely of the two) more players pass through Nordland than any other T1 pairing.

For this reason we devoted development time to revamping and revitalizing the new player experience in this zone.

Now for the flip side, yeah, GvD is an great experience for some players, however more often than not, many players were simply hitting the Rally Cry button and heading straight into the fun in New Emskrank.

What we are trying to accomplish is to give new trial users and existing players alike a vibrant and lively Tier 1 experience.
Lantyssa
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Reply #83 on: September 30, 2009, 10:04:21 AM

Shame, because Nordland was my least favorite of the zones.  Not even an option to start in the others?

Pretty sure this signals the end we knew was coming.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
ghost
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Reply #84 on: September 30, 2009, 10:05:47 AM

Pretty sure this signals the end we knew was coming.

We are watching the caboose as the train goes off the cliff.
Sir T
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Reply #85 on: September 30, 2009, 10:10:17 AM

They should have had one realm from the very begining if they were doing it at all.

Be principled, but not too principled.
Soln
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the opportunity for evil is just delicious


Reply #86 on: September 30, 2009, 10:22:35 AM

I liked the Greenskin starting zone
Soln
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the opportunity for evil is just delicious


Reply #87 on: September 30, 2009, 10:25:54 AM

Also, does anyone give a shit?
Delmania
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Reply #88 on: September 30, 2009, 10:31:53 AM

Also, does anyone give a shit?

Some faint semblance of hope that post MJ Mythic can fic the game and make it fun?

ghost
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Reply #89 on: September 30, 2009, 10:51:15 AM

Give a shit?  Sure, I love watching a train wreck.
Jherad
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I find Rachel Maddow seriously hot.


Reply #90 on: September 30, 2009, 11:14:52 AM

I know that they *need* to get people together, as without a critical mass of PvPers the game dies - but I cannot help but feel that this is like tightening a tourniquet around their own neck to a staunch a bloody head-wound. Cutting 2/3rds the starting content for alt re-rollers is going to hasten many departures. /obvious.

I'd been thinking that AoC's 'booby enhancement potions' smacked of desperation, but compared to this...
Shatter
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Reply #91 on: September 30, 2009, 11:25:44 AM

I dont even understand what they are trying to do with their game, sadly neither do they.  The biggest issues in the game dont stem from Tier 1 so how that became a priority for work/fixing I guess falls under the same stupidity as continually adding more PvE content to a PvP game while avoiding major issues.  I think its fun to watch this game, not for how fast its failing but to see what dumb decision the Dev's can come up with next. 
March
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Reply #92 on: September 30, 2009, 12:23:54 PM

Not sure what to make of the newbie zone change...

But sidekicking is something that they willfully ignored during beta; I would even go so far as to say, contemptuously ignored, thinking that their end-game would be so kick-ass that nobody would ever leave it.

(nevermind that the original design <almost> required alts in each of the lower tiers; and that folks pointed out that PQ's require groups to complete... groups that will not be there when everyone is enjoying your kick-ass endgame; and that if your endgame is so shockingly kick-ass, then friends will want ways to help guildies make it to endgame quicker).

All early signs pointed to a need for some sort of sidekick system... now, who is there left to sidekick?  Is this going to bring folks back?  It's the right fix to a problem that doesn't need fixing right now.
Ashamanchill
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Reply #93 on: September 30, 2009, 12:37:46 PM

This move is going to make one of the most railed MMOs, just that much moreso.

A poster signed by Richard Garriot, Brad McQuaid, Marc Jacobs and SmerricK Dart.  Of course it would arrive a couple years late, missing letters and a picture but it would be epic none the less. -Tmon
Sobelius
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Reply #94 on: September 30, 2009, 12:38:38 PM

The 1.3.2 patch notes are a kitchen sink of everything that they've been doing for months that wasn't part of an Event patch or critical bug fix. As a result, of course, it looks like they focused on a lot of odd things. From the outside customer perspective, it looks like they worked on all of this between 1.3.1 and now. But those of us who've worked on complex software projects know that sometimes features get cut from a release cycle (for whatever the reasons) and wind up in a later update.

Frankly, I hate the bloated-monster-patch approach. Smaller incremental updates that can be traced/analyzed more easily if/when something unexpected breaks is a more reliable approach. And it would let each update stand on its own as far as "focus".


"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire
"A world without Vin Diesel is sad." -- me
raydeen
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Reply #95 on: September 30, 2009, 12:43:52 PM

It's kinda funny as sidekicking was in the game from the beginning, just not used. How do I know? One day I rolled up new toon, queued up for one of the scenarios, and then something glitched. I was level 2 and suddenly was in a level 20-30 scenario running around at level 22. Of course I didn't have the armor and weapons to go along with the level, but I was dynamically scaled up to that level. And of course you could scale someone down. So many tears would have been spared if they had used this mechanic better. Fuck the chickening bit. If I was to enter a lower or higher level zone, just adjust me to within maybe 10 above or below that level. It solves the one shotting WoW mechanic and would still provide some fun fights for everyone involved. Oh well.

I was drinking when I wrote this, so sue me if it goes astray.
01101010
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You call it an accident. I call it justice.


Reply #96 on: September 30, 2009, 12:57:43 PM

Every time I visit the WAR forum, the game suddenly reminds me of meth addicts in the way those pictures regress from human to zombie...

ah la:

"I want to watch it all burn in an orgy of smashed Coke machines and weasel rape." - HaemishM
WindupAtheist
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Badicalthon


Reply #97 on: September 30, 2009, 02:16:42 PM

You know EA's MMO division is in trouble when the most vibrant-looking horse in it's stable is Ultima fucking Online. From this casual observer's point of view, WAR is giving off a worse stench than even SWG post-NGE.

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
Soln
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the opportunity for evil is just delicious


Reply #98 on: September 30, 2009, 02:32:50 PM

wondering what the studio's costs might be.  Unlike Mythic-as-small-company, Mythic-as-EA-Profit/Loss-operating-unit can't rely on that huge amount of box sales to keep them going.  That cash is gone....   They need new 2010 revenue to cover all costs+profit.

I wouldn't doubt that MJ figured the box sales alone would save and sustain them.  Sadly, that wasn't Mythic's revenue anymore.
Von Douchemore
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Reply #99 on: October 06, 2009, 09:18:59 AM

They should release a WAR+DAoC+UO sub pack for like, 20usd.
Soulflame
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Reply #100 on: October 06, 2009, 09:40:03 AM

The only one out of those that even remotely interests me is DAoC, and there's no way in hell I'd pay extra for access to UO or Warhammer at this point.  Even though I've played all three, and played two of them (UO and DAoC) quite extensively.
Sir T
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Reply #101 on: October 06, 2009, 09:45:47 AM

The European release of WAR came with a DAOC disk and a months sub for it.

Be principled, but not too principled.
IainC
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Reply #102 on: October 06, 2009, 09:49:02 AM

There was also a combined sub in Europe for DAoC and WAR. Not sure if it's still offered.

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WindupAtheist
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Badicalthon


Reply #103 on: October 06, 2009, 01:48:02 PM

They should release a WAR+DAoC+UO sub pack for like, 20usd.

I said this to Mark Jacobs on these boards a couple years ago and got some handjob response. But the fact is, if you offer multiple MMOs then a multi-sub deal only makes sense. Hoping someone is going to pay full price for more than one of your games simultaneously is just greed overriding sense, since if someone subs to two MMOs one of them is probably just going to be WoW anyway.

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
Redgiant
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Reply #104 on: October 07, 2009, 03:37:48 PM

Carlin's mug fit your name better.

A FUCKING COMPANY IS AT STEAK
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