Hate Pugs? You'll hate them even more now!

[Shrike]

DW DKs have some PvP utility, but--allegedly, since I haven't tried it myself--it requires good gear to make it effective.

As for tanking, well, there are certain types of players that just have to be a special snowflake and this is the DK version of that. They also tend to be undergeared, which makes it that much worse.

All PuG DKs are on my NFE list as of this last night. Yet another frost DK that couldn't even begin to hold aggro, yet wants 3k+ unbuffed dps for HToC. Poor situational awareness and lost aggro on every fight within 30 sec. Fuck a bunch of DKs.

[Selby]

As for tanking, well, there are certain types of players that just have to be a special snowflake and this is the DK version of that. They also tend to be undergeared, which makes it that much worse.

My guild leader is a DK tank.  He does very well and we never have issues.  Albeit, he is probably one of the only ones I've ever run with that I can AoE a room and he holds aggro on them all.

It does seems like every single DK in a PUG is just flat out bad though...

[Nevermore]

As for tanking, well, there are certain types of players that just have to be a special snowflake and this is the DK version of that. They also tend to be undergeared, which makes it that much worse.

As Sjofn said, they added DW talents to the Frost tree so it made sense to try them out for tanking and see if they would work.  From a defense standpoint it was ok.  You lose the Stoneskin enchant but you theoretically make up for that by being able to use two tank 1h weapons which give you defense stats.  No 2h weapon gives direct defense stats, which is why they added Stoneskin in the first place.  

The problem, aside from the Rune Stike issues I already mentioned, is that the 1h tank weapons are all fast weapons and DK DW sucks with fast weapons.  You want to use the slowest weapons possible when DWing with a DK.  So that's why I switched back to 2h Frost for tanking but I'm quite happy with DW Frost for DPS.

All PuG DKs are on my NFE list as of this last night. Yet another frost DK that couldn't even begin to hold aggro, yet wants 3k+ unbuffed dps for HToC. Poor situational awareness and lost aggro on every fight within 30 sec. Fuck a bunch of DKs.

I've seen tanks of all types have issues with aggro in HToC, specifically on the transition from mounted to ground fighting in the first encounter and in the second phase of Black Knight when he summons all the ghouls.  It's also hell on some otherwise good healers, especially Paladin healers.

[Hindenburg]

If you're pugging, there's no reason to risk a wipe by trying to survive the transition from jousting to melee, just zone out and check your party to make sure that the dumb fuckers remembered to equip their weapon. Also remember to inspect the damn druid.

Most DK tanks seem to forget that spreading diseases + Blood Boil is awesome for aoe threat.

[K9]

It always annoys me when people run out; I honestly wouldn't mind if Blizzard fixed that. You only need to run out if you are terrible.

[Nevermore]

Most DK tanks seem to forget that spreading diseases + Blood Boil is awesome for aoe threat.

That's what I do.  Deathchilled glyphed Howling Blast, Plague Strike, Pestilence, Blood Boil and if it's really necessary, Empowered Rune Weapon to refresh my runes and drop a Death & Decay.  I've also found that Army of the Dead on Black Knight phase 2 is helpful for keeping the ghouls from jumping on the healer right away.

[Shrike]

The whole jousting/transition thing is clownshoes. We routinely zone out; even PuGs seem to grasp this. Just a bad design decision. A pox on jousting of any sort.

The main issue I've been having with DKs in PuG is they can't hold aggro. I can go and strictly auto-attack and I"m getting aggro on WFs. There is no excuse for this. My own guild DKs (and, yes, our GL is a DK tank as well) are actually quite good. I don't have to worry about these guys. PuGs, however, are horrific with DKs. Interestingly enough, even in PuGs I'm not seeing this issue with paladins or druids, and only once with a warrior (and they have my pity on transiitions). I blame it on a FotM class that just attracts the worst element in WoW; the worst of the worst simply have to DW for some reason.

 

[Hindenburg]

It always annoys me when people run out; I honestly wouldn't mind if Blizzard fixed that. You only need to run out if you are terrible.

Or if you don't like to leave things to chance. But hey, you're welcome to be an idiot about it. God forbid that you have to take the 10 seconds to run out and facilitate tank pickup.

Deathchilled glyphed Howling Blast, Plague Strike, Pestilence, Blood Boil and if it's really necessary, Empowered Rune Weapon to refresh my runes and drop a Death & Decay.  I've also found that Army of the Dead on Black Knight phase 2 is helpful for keeping the ghouls from jumping on the healer right away.

Eh, feel more comfortable popping hungering cold and using the extra glyph slot for rune/frost/obli. YMMV. Been using EJ's cookie cutter build.

[Nevermore]

Eh, feel more comfortable popping hungering cold and using the extra glyph slot for rune/frost/obli. YMMV. Been using EJ's cookie cutter build.

I didn't take Hungering Cold on my tank spec.  It costs 40 runic power to use unless it's glyphed, which means it might not always be available at the start of a fight.  Trading a Howling Blast glyph for a Hungering Cold glyph doesn't net me anything and not taking Hungering Cold at all saves me a talent point.

[Hindenburg]

What hungering cold glyph? You're trading a HB glyph for an obli/frost strike/rune strike glyph. The 40 rp comes from pulling with HB (15) and dropping DnD (20), then just hitting BS once. You'll keep AoE threat just fine and improve your single target threat a tad. Won't even need the BS if you've horned just before the pull.

[Sjofn]

Most DK tanks seem to forget that spreading diseases + Blood Boil is awesome for aoe threat.

My main problem with this is DPS classes don't seem to realise that takes a few GCDs to do.


EDIT: The reason you're not seeing threat problems with PUG druids is even if your DPS is super quick on the trigger, you can lolswipe to victory, which requires no ramp up time or rune management. Paladins generate the highest threat of the four tanks. Warriors, if nothing else, have an AE taunt that DKs do not have. It's not all "these people are terrible," although if a DK gets to do their opening threat shit without jumpy DPSers, there's no real reason to lose aggro.

[proudft]

There is wiiiiiiide variation in the threat output of PuG tanks.  I haven't really figured out why yet, but I've been on the PuG parade for a week or so with my fury warrior, and man, there is no pattern or sense to it all.  There's paladin tanks out there with all epics and 30k health who can't hold threat from autoattacks.  How do you even DO that?

I never really noticed on the rogue with tricks of the trade and all, but when you start out with a whirlwind and cleave combo, you find out quick who uses all their abilities, I tell you what.  Lately it's been about 30% no problem whatsoever, 30% I gotta pay attention and lay off a bit, and 40% jesus dude what are you doing I hope the healer is cool with this.

Been putting together a tank suit so I can be the one to blame. 

[Nevermore]

What hungering cold glyph? You're trading a HB glyph for an obli/frost strike/rune strike glyph. The 40 rp comes from pulling with HB (15) and dropping DnD (20), then just hitting BS once. You'll keep AoE threat just fine and improve your single target threat a tad. Won't even need the BS if you've horned just before the pull.

Except I don't even need to drop D&D all the time.  In my case I'd be trading in the HB glyph for a Rune Strike glyph.  Holding aggro on single targets hasn't been an issue so RS glyph hasn't been necessary.  Being able to keep Frost Fever on all the mobs through Rime procs has worked out nicely.

A Deathchilled Howling Blast that also adds a disease gets me more instant aggro than a plain HB which gives me slightly more time to get the Pestilence/Blood Boil combo off so the DPS don't kill themselves and blame the tank.

[Hindenburg]

Who drops DnD all the time?

Keeping frost fever on all targets through rime is a moot point, since you'll be using pest to spread the plague strike disease anyway.This is a case where both approaches work, but mine is still better than yours JUST CUZ!

My main problem with this is DPS classes don't seem to realise that takes a few GCDs to do.

That's odd, thought everyone's main problem would be people single target dps'ing  some mob other than the one the tank's focused on. It's the one damn thing that always annoys me.

[Ingmar]

My main problem with this is DPS classes don't seem to realise that takes a few GCDs to do.

That's odd, thought everyone's main problem would be people single target dps'ing  some mob other than the one the tank's focused on. It's the one damn thing that always annoys me.

That is why I mark even the crappy trash usually, at least with a skull on one mob so people know HEY ATTACK THIS ONE FIRST DUMBASS. I keybound it, so it basically takes no effort.

[Sjofn]

Yeah, I was thinking pretty much only of AEers on the AE-fests. Single targets I don't have a problem like 98% of the time.

[Nevermore]

Who drops DnD all the time?

But if you don't DnD all the time, you won't get your Hungering Cold off!  That was my whole original point!

Besides, if you really wanted to be the tip top bleeding edge DK Tank you would be specced into Blood. 

[Hindenburg]

I don't have bleeding edge gear to spec blood. Woe is me. Seriously, I'm using shoulders with +shieldblock, that shit be sad. Also, their AoE threat is nowhere near as good as frost.
DnD needs to be dropped on a 3+ mob pull, and that's it. On pull =/= all the time. Even in those 3 groups of 3 mobs, it tends to refresh soon enough for me to chain pull them, and if it hasn't, odds are I'll have 40 RP stored, so, meh, whereas your HB glyph will be worthless, WORTHLESS against  single targets.
Revel in my +10% crit awesomeness.  

[Nevermore]

It's not worthless on singles because every time Rime procs I don't have to use a frost rune on Icy Touch to refresh Frost Fever. 

[Hindenburg]

If you were worried about that, you'd be better served by a glyph of disease. 

W.R.T.LESS.

Been giving some thought to that, actually. Using a single blood rune to keep diseases on the target, taking advantage of the buffs if you placed them at the right time, and leaving more frost+unholy runes to oblit.

[Nevermore]

If you were worried about that, you'd be better served by a glyph of disease.  

But I don't have to worry about that because Glyph of HB already has it covered for me!

'round and 'round and 'round we go!  

Been giving some thought to that, actually. Using a single blood rune to keep diseases on the target, taking advantage of the buffs if you placed them at the right time, and leaving more frost+unholy runes to oblit.

You'd definitely be better served with Glyph of Disease over Glyph of Rune Strike, imo.  I've considered it myself since Glyph of Disease is a really nice glyph.  The only reason I haven't switched is inertia because what I have now is already working well for me.

[Merusk]

I dislike frost tanking and just go with Blood.  I was Unholy tanking heroics when UB was an aoe and had so few aggro problems it was silly. (Pick up Blade Barrier and Toughness along with Anticipation. Whee, mitigation.)   I drop D&D at the beginning, spam my diseases, then drop a pestilance/ Bloodrune refresh/ Blood Plague to build aggro.  After that it's a cakewalk.

Again, I only tank heroics and the random elite mob I can't DPS down on my own.  I have no idea how viable this is raid tanking, as I really don't want to bother with it.

The DW talents were added to shush up the DW DPS whiners who complained about frost's lack of performance.  I don't think Blizz even imagined folks would try tanking with them, but given the groupthink that "TANK=FROST" they really should have.

Hell, I'm willing to bet that's how they're going to fix their "Mastery Stat" conundrum.*  They'll just go full-out and make Frost the Protection tree of DKs, and tell us all to QQ about the changes and deal with the new reality.  You want to DPS, go Unholy or Blood, you want to tank go Frost.

*(See the explanation of how Mastery works in the Cataclysm thread if you don't understand the problem)

[Paelos]

So if they go with that frost change, you'll essentially be warriors. That begs the question, why even have warriors if DKs can be more effective tanks and already do better dps. Oh and they wear the same gear.

It's getting a little silly. I'd happily take a DK upgrade to my warrior if I got to keep my gear.

[Merusk]

You've got block... and stuns.  And.. um..

Block. .. oh and 2 "get back in range quick" skills.

But mostly shield and block.

[Sjofn]

So if they go with that frost change, you'll essentially be warriors. That begs the question, why even have warriors if DKs can be more effective tanks and already do better dps. Oh and they wear the same gear.

It's getting a little silly. I'd happily take a DK upgrade to my warrior if I got to keep my gear.

Oh for fuck's sake, if DKs get a tank tree all its own and two DPS trees, that does not turn them into freaking warriors. I am sick to fucking death of warriors bawling about how they're sooooo uuuuuuuseless now. The gap between tanks for the VAST MAJORITY OF THE PLAYER BASE (those that casually raid or less) is very small. I can't be sad for warriors that in Hard Modes they're not the Default Tank anymore when they spent the entire life of the game prior to that being the Default Tank for Practically Everything.

I am pretty much assuming that they will make frost the Tank Tree since that's our Tank Presence. If they find a different way, cool, but that seems like the obvious solution to me. Would probably make balancing DKs a fuckton easier too. :P

[Paelos]

You tank all the time Sjofn, as you've said. You've also said you have all the tanking classes I believe.

Let me venture to guess that you tank mostly with your pally or DK?

[Ingmar]

I don't really understand why warriors feel threatened by DK tanks anymore. Yes, at release, their cooldowns and HP/armor scaling were stupidly overpowered. They're not any more, and I'd happily put my tanking ability up against any similarly geared DK.

You've got block... and stuns.  And.. um..

Block. .. oh and 2 "get back in range quick" skills.

But mostly shield and block.

Also silences, better raid protection skills in intervene and vigilance, a couple buffs and several debuffs that DK's don't offer, etc.

[Merusk]

Because warriors are unfun as shit to play.  I forced myself to level one to 60 years ago pre-BC when my guild needed an instance tank.  It's sat there ever since because they're just UN FUN.  Pally tank? Fun.  Druid tank? Fun.  DK Tank?  Fun.  Warrior? OMGWTFGODDAMNRAGE.   Being "the" tank was the bone they were thrown for suffering through the shit that is being a warrior.

[Ingmar]

Because warriors are unfun as shit to play.  I forced myself to level one to 60 years ago pre-BC when my guild needed an instance tank.  It's sat there ever since because they're just UN FUN.  Pally tank? Fun.  Druid tank? Fun.  DK Tank?  Fun.  Warrior? OMGWTFGODDAMNRAGE.   Being "the" tank was the bone they were thrown for suffering through the shit that is being a warrior.

If you haven't played it since vanilla/60, you should try it again. It is a lot more interesting than it was back then. Basically the only dumb thing left is heroic strike spam.

[Paelos]

It's still really not that fun. Shockwave was good, but it's on a 20s cooldown. The rest of the stuff is just shield slam cooldowns and thunderclaps with heroic strike spam. The evolution has made your TPS go up from being horribly annoying as it was back in the day, but not many of the basics have changed in the last two years.

[Ingmar]

Honest question: why do you still play this game? From your posts here you really seem to hate it.

[Paelos]

Honest question: why do you still play this game? From your posts here you really seem to hate it.

Oh I don't tank anymore. I switched to DPS about a year ago. Life is much simpler on this side as a warrior, and I have more utility in arms spec. At times, I'm forced to tank 5 mans due to lack of actual tanks, but that's about it.

[Merusk]

If you haven't played it since vanilla/60, you should try it again. It is a lot more interesting than it was back then. Basically the only dumb thing left is heroic strike spam.

I've run to hellfire a few times, taken some swipes at hellboars and wound-up dead before hearthing back to IF and my bank-alt duties.  Since I was a prot tank, all my gear was aimed at that.  I went back a week or so ago and did notice that prot is able to kill things now.. but found I really didn't want to do Hellfire a 6th time.    (I'm haivng a hard enough time getting the gumption to do  Northrend a 3rd.     )  The class just wasn't exciting and different enough from what I remember to make me go, "Yeah, NOW we're talking."   I just still found it generally unfun.

Maybe heirloom items would change my mind.. but I'm enjoying buying them for my rogue and noob hunter (2nd one, too) more.


And of course you and Pae posted since I started, so now I have to edit and quote.

[Fordel]

You tank all the time Sjofn, as you've said. You've also said you have all the tanking classes I believe.

Let me venture to guess that you tank mostly with your pally or DK?

Her Druid as of late. 

[Sjofn]

Because warriors are unfun as shit to play.  I forced myself to level one to 60 years ago pre-BC when my guild needed an instance tank.  It's sat there ever since because they're just UN FUN.  Pally tank? Fun.  Druid tank? Fun.  DK Tank?  Fun.  Warrior? OMGWTFGODDAMNRAGE.   Being "the" tank was the bone they were thrown for suffering through the shit that is being a warrior.

My warrior is merely level 75, but I'm leveling her as protection. While I do find her more whack-a-mole-esque than the other three, it's mostly "feels different" to me than anything else. I won't be able to make the Final Call until I'm level 80 of course, but I would say paladin tank was the least fun (especially if I was trying to solo one up these days from level 1). Yes, it's entertaining to kill 10 dudes at once for a while, but it's not really "fun." At least not for me.

HOWEVER, I can understand the "it just isn't as fun waaah" complaints, because that's a matter of taste. WE'RE USELESS WHIIIIIIIIINGE, on the other hand, can fuck off and die.

And in case you were wondering, I didn't level my warrior tank earlier because we already have two warriors that MT for us, and diversity of tanks seemed like it would be better than having a lot of duplicates. It wasn't a bad assumption to make as it turns out.