Guild Wars 2

[Draegan]

I'm expecting that the players will still drill it down to finding out which series of "dynamic" events gives the most bang for the buck reward and spend all their time gaming the system and ruining any sort of dynamic feel that may be intended. It sounds great but I can still see a lot of possible problems. Hopefully they are planning for these sorts of things and have some solutions in store.

That depends on how many iterations they have.  If each shift in the content has more than one possibility, then this scenario would be hard to achieve.  Also if you get more people involved its harder to get them all to cooperate for the a specific result.

This dynamic content will suck if it's just :

A->B->C->D->E->D->C->B->A

Where
A= Peace.  Enemy is at the fort and quiet and the village is going about it's daily activities
B= Enemy moving out.
C= Enemy attacking and taking over village.
D= Enemy securing village and moving outward

It's only going to work if after B you can see C-1, C-2... C-X depending on what happens.  Otherwise it'll just be a very long chain of static Public Quests.  The article specifically says it won't be that way, but that is yet to be seen.

[LK]

It's always going to be a fixed number of mechanics in some combination. They might be able to create more and more content but there WILL be repetition.

It will be nice if you can get back to character advancement from a fun activity with occasional special events rather than a guided tour, but there will be repetition.

I do want to try this game and see how it goes now that they appear to be doing more than just Guild Wars 2.0.

[Hawkbit]

At this point, I welcome any change to the quest/loot drudgery.  I think it sounds neat.

[Draegan]

It's always going to be a fixed number of mechanics in some combination. They might be able to create more and more content but there WILL be repetition.

It will be nice if you can get back to character advancement from a fun activity with occasional special events rather than a guided tour, but there will be repetition.

I do want to try this game and see how it goes now that they appear to be doing more than just Guild Wars 2.0.

Obviously things are repeated, but with scaling it should never been the same (hopefully).  Also, we knew it wasn't just Guild Wars 2.0 for a while now.

[Zzulo]

This game is really pretty for an MMO (more (big) screenshots):

[schild]

Everything Arena.net does is pretty, it's sort of the major certainty of everything they touch.

[DLRiley]

New info released today, with some neat screenshots:


Article on the Dynamic Event system:
http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/dynamic-events/dynamic-events-overview/

Screens:

Why does Guild Wars 2 have to come out. Fuck when my epic mmo comes out 10 years from now these ideas where suppose to be new and never seen before ever. Now these fuckers at arena net have managed to use their brains made a "real world" before I did. Fuck me!

[Ratman_tf]

New info released today, with some neat screenshots:


Article on the Dynamic Event system:
http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/dynamic-events/dynamic-events-overview/

Screens:

I  his description of the current questalot paradigm.

[Spiff]

Sooo dynamic content is the buzzword for 2011 MMO's now?  (only a matter of time before Alganon claims it I s'pose).
Love hearing about it, but the 'shared rewards' and all that scares me more than it excites me at this point.

When they're testing these marvellous new systems in house and creating magical moments in MMO-history they're missing one key-component of the average MMO experience I'd say: the propensity for asshats to appear.
People don't just see each other as adversaries because of the gameplay, it comes natural in any environment where one person can achieve an advantage over another (and if it doesn't allow for that, well wtf is the point?), so saying things like 'you'll love to see other players appear because the rewards scale!' aren't filling me with confidence.

Although hearing stuff like this is exactly why I got excited about Tabula Rasa (don't judge me!  ), I'm sure they'll do better 

[Kageru]

Was typing up that most of this has been seen before, but think I'll wait till they actually play their hand rather than talk about it. Certainly a world in which this is done really well and makes up the majority of the content will be an interesting one to explore. But making this content have sufficient variety, work and be fun in game is complex and expensive. This might well work well for them if they have the same fast levelling curve they had in GW1.

[UnSub]

Yeah, wait and see. The problem with ogres actually smashing houses is that at some point the house gets smashed and that's that. Either things reset themselves or that's the event done for good.

[ajax34i]

I see a few problems:

- Failing a quest, for whatever reason, does not give you the option to abandon and re-take it.  It's fine, except if the reason you fail is asshats, lag, disconnects, a mis-click, a bug, or anything not your fault, really.  And people never blame themselves.

- There is at least the perception that if you're not playing at release, you're missing out on the content, as it will be altered by players by the time you get there.

- They're expecting players to spontaneously organize themselves to respond to events (such as a dragon attacking the nearby town)?  They seem to forget how much work player-herding really is.

- Developments (like that dredge fort example) aren't easier to stop as time passes, but rather seem to have a point of no return: once the fort is built, that's it, might as well give up as it's now a 25-man raid area/zone.  The effects on the server are, IMO, similar to bacterial or viral infections of the body - they're letting the playerbase be the immune system.  They should make it the other way around:   players as the bacteria or virii, and NPC's as the immune system. 

- Also, "as time pases" creates timezone issues.

[Malakili]

I see a few problems:

- Failing a quest, for whatever reason, does not give you the option to abandon and re-take it.  It's fine, except if the reason you fail is asshats, lag, disconnects, a mis-click, a bug, or anything not your fault, really.  And people never blame themselves.

- There is at least the perception that if you're not playing at release, you're missing out on the content, as it will be altered by players by the time you get there.

- They're expecting players to spontaneously organize themselves to respond to events (such as a dragon attacking the nearby town)?  They seem to forget how much work player-herding really is.

- Developments (like that dredge fort example) aren't easier to stop as time passes, but rather seem to have a point of no return: once the fort is built, that's it, might as well give up as it's now a 25-man raid area/zone.  The effects on the server are, IMO, similar to bacterial or viral infections of the body - they're letting the playerbase be the immune system.  They should make it the other way around:   players as the bacteria or virii, and NPC's as the immune system. 

- Also, "as time pases" creates timezone issues.

Stop it, you're ruining my hopes and dreams.

[Ollie]

I hope ArenaNet really takes a critical look at the kind of choice and consequence system they marry these timed events to. While randomly triggered event chains that cascade according to player participation sure sound neat, they're a form of content presentation that risk turning a portion of the players from protagonists into spectators, as Ajax said. If I'm not needed to instigate an event, nor is it critically contingent on my participation, why am I supposed to care again? How is, for example, the ogre attacking the farmer subjectively meaningful to me, as opposed to yet another example of a world where random stuff just happens? And don't say loot, or I'll scream.

Oh well, wait and see. ArenaNet's next article will be focusing on "the personal story system", so it seems they are way ahead of me.

[Malakili]

I hope ArenaNet really takes a critical look at the kind of choice and consequence system they marry these timed events to. While randomly triggered event chains that cascade according to player participation sure sound neat, they're a form of content presentation that risk turning a portion of the players from protagonists into spectators, as Ajax said. If I'm not needed to instigate an event, nor is it critically contingent on my participation, why am I supposed to care again? How is, for example, the ogre attacking the farmer subjectively meaningful to me, as opposed to yet another example of a world where random stuff just happens? And don't say loot, or I'll scream.

Oh well, wait and see. ArenaNet's next article will be focusing on "the personal story system", so it seems they are way ahead of me.

Why does anyone ever care about a quest in an MMO?  This would at least give you more reason to care than normal because your action actually has some effect on the game world, as does you inaction (if what they say is true).    The ogre and the farmer should matter to you because you are playing a hero in a high fantasy setting.  If that isn't enough then I imagine you've never completed any task in any game for lack of meaning.

[Mrbloodworth]

This game is really pretty for an MMO (more (big) screenshots):

It is pretty, but the screens you posted look like another title that does it for less overhead.

[schild]

It is pretty, but the screens you posted look like another title that does it for less overhead.

What title? Because there really isn't one that looks like anything Arena produces. Not with the same level of polish and raw talent.

[jakonovski]

- Also, "as time pases" creates timezone issues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatch_Internet_Time   

[Mrbloodworth]

It is pretty, but the screens you posted look like another title that does it for less overhead.

What title? Because there really isn't one that looks like anything Arena produces. Not with the same level of polish and raw talent.

I fully expect some criticism in my comparison.




Granted, arena people clearly have a higher tech set, lots of Normal maps, HDR, soft particles, and perhaps a higher texture resolution. But the first thing I thought of was lotro when I looked at those screens.

Not to say arena net isn't exactly what you say they are, because it is a beautiful game and body of work so far. I guess it struck me more than turbine artists have done more with less and come out with comparable art with out the reliance and overhead of such systems. My post was not a knock, or flame in anyway, simply an observation.

[Malakili]

It is pretty, but the screens you posted look like another title that does it for less overhead.

What title? Because there really isn't one that looks like anything Arena produces. Not with the same level of polish and raw talent.

I fully expect some criticism in my comparison.




Granted, arena people clearly have a higher tech set, lots of Normal maps, HDR, soft particles, and perhaps a higher texture resolution. But the first thing I thought of was lotro when I looked at those screens.

Not to say arena net isn't exactly what you say they are, because it is a beautiful game and body of work so far. I guess it struck me more than turbine artists have done more with less and come out with comparable art with out the reliance and overhead of such systems. My post was not a knock, or flame in anyway, simply an observation.

You're insanely more knowledgeable about this sort of thing than me, but off the cuff, I never would have said that looks like lotro.  Maybe to someone who does stuff like that there are more obvious similarities, but it looks way better than lotro (even maxed out).  Lotro is very pretty, don't get me wrong, but it just doesn't compare in terms of detail, at least to my untrained eyes.

[Mrbloodworth]

No, you are right, the detail is much higher for guild wars, but its a trade off, always is. My comparison was more about finial composition of the shots than the individual techniques used. Looking at more guild wars screen shots it does diverge a good deal from LOTRO, mostly in style used, and graphics budgets, but I still feel, even with its old techniques, lower graphics budgets there is a comparison. I guess my observations was less about them looking the same, and more about turbine artists ability to use older techniques and achieving, while lesser, comparable results. In motion, with all the normals, spec-maps, much more advanced shadow system and high resolution textures and all those post process pixel filters guild wars looks amazing. I just always tend to give more credit to houses that are able to fully utilize older techniques, to the point of refinement.

[Falconeer]

I just fired up LotRO yesterday after being away for a couple of years. I have a new lcd monitor and a new computer, and with the DX10 client and everything maxed out in 1920x1080 the game is freaking impressive. In the area just outside Moria, I couldn't believe it is a three years old game.

[Mrbloodworth]

I couldn't believe it is a three years old game.

Exactly, especially since the techniques and graphic standards are even older and were set well before launch, so perhaps tack on another year or so, maybe two. Makes you wonder, if turbine still has the same stable of artists, what the next game would like like if they were unleashed to use more modern techniques. the only one i am aware of that LOTRO uses is normal maps, and thats only for the distant terrain, nothing else.
(other than the drunk post process or dread, maybe a few others, but nowhere near as much as guild wars.)

Anyway, guild wars one and two are some of the most brilliant art and techniques used in modern mmo's.

Is GW2 still instanced? Guess I need to read up.

[Draegan]

According to articles and interviews, GW2 is fully open where the only instances are dungeons and such.  I don't know if they're going to have zone maps instance themselves like Aion or EQ2.  Wouldn't really make sense if they did though.

[Mrbloodworth]

I am reading that its a mix, and that increased the poly limit's and texture sizes over the original, as well as added a bunch of post stuff. Including DX10 support. (LOTRO is moving to DX11)

[jakonovski]

Do those screenshots exist in a format not mangled by the good folks at IGN?

[ajax34i]

Stop it, you're ruining my hopes and dreams.

Well, hopefully they consider / have considered all this already.  I don't imagine that my complaints are anything new.

Actually it sounds like they may not even have quests at all.  Dragon attacks village, your guild's scouts report it, your guild mobilizes and deals with the dragon in an organized and amazing way, and then it's time for let's see how much gold and rewards we can bilk out of the villagers we just saved. 

No exclamation marks anywhere, no quests given, just the expectation that any action you take will be rewarded by someone, and it's just a matter of finding them and milking them for all it's worth.

They should put the !'s on the quest reward givers, once they're ready to give the rewards.  Click, read about how great you were and why saving the village mattered, and receive the gold and your item.  It can be pretty cool if you walk into the village and everyone has a ! on their head, ready to give you some gold, praise, items, cyber, whatever.

[Tmon]

Why does anyone ever care about a quest in an MMO?  This would at least give you more reason to care than normal because your action actually has some effect on the game world, as does you inaction (if what they say is true).    The ogre and the farmer should matter to you because you are playing a hero in a high fantasy setting.  If that isn't enough then I imagine you've never completed any task in any game for lack of meaning.

I've been playing MMOs since UO came out and I doubt if I could tell you much of anything about back story or the story lines lines of the quests in any of the games I've played since.  But I have stories from all of them about stuff that mattered to me.  I like the idea that they will use the character's story line quest to guide you through the game but use the dynamic events thing to give you stuff to do.  At least with dynamic content instead of assigned quests I won't be forced to do stuff I don't want to just because the guy with the exclamation point over his head has offered me magical pants.  Also, not having a virtual to do list staring me in the face every time I log in would be a refreshing change.  

[Draegan]

I had an arm-chair forum discussion years ago about the subject of dynamic content and quest progression that's very much like this.  Basically the gist (did I spell that right?) is the world is always moving.  If some event is happening you see it happening regardless of what you did.  You either ignore or participate.  If there is an invasion going on you see it's effects from far off.  Supply trains moving towards the event or people fleeing from it.  You hear and see things that might tip you off that something is wrong.  The more you investigate the more you figure out what's going on and you make decisions as you go on.  You can also get rewarded as you go with either XP, Skillups or loot.  Figuring out what's going on and seeing your actions affect the whole zone is also a reward in itself.

I think they're going to attempt to create the Civilization's motto of "One more turn".  You just want to find out what happens next.

[Lantyssa]

Why does anyone ever care about a quest in an MMO?  This would at least give you more reason to care than normal because your action actually has some effect on the game world, as does you inaction (if what they say is true).    The ogre and the farmer should matter to you because you are playing a hero in a high fantasy setting.  If that isn't enough then I imagine you've never completed any task in any game for lack of meaning.

Spot on.  Seriously, because kill ten rats for five copper and a crap sword wasn't motivation enough already?  They're offing players a chance to shape the world based on their own actions, and y'all think that will make them feel disconnected?  What MMOs have y'all been playing?

Assuming it all works, of course.

[Draegan]

I think we should now assume that each post about dynamic content in this thread has the caveat of "If what they are talking about works."  This way we don't have to keep typing it.   

[UnSub]

- They're expecting players to spontaneously organize themselves to respond to events (such as a dragon attacking the nearby town)?  They seem to forget how much work player-herding really is.

Day 1: "Hey, there's a dragon attacking the village! EVERYONE DEFEND IT!"

Day 50: "Hey, that dragon's attacking the village. Anyone want to team up, take it out?"

Day 350: "Drag atack vill agin. 5% rare loot drop. PST. Need healer."

[HaemishM]

I think it would be entertaining if in the process of discovering the dynamic event, you could make a choice that was more than binary. As in, you see an orc army massing for an attack on a village. You could 1) choose to attack the orcs and try to save the village, 2) you could ignore it completely and let the orc chips fall where they may or 3) you could choose to fight WITH the orcs to destroy the village. Players who chose #1 would be pitted against an NPC army AND the players who chose #3.

Then I wake up. 

[Lantyssa]

Not to say arena net isn't exactly what you say they are, because it is a beautiful game and body of work so far. I guess it struck me more than turbine artists have done more with less and come out with comparable art with out the reliance and overhead of such systems. My post was not a knock, or flame in anyway, simply an observation.

I'm playing LotR right now since I got the $10 digital deal.  The game is pretty, and you picked carefully chosen screenshots for examples, but if you compare GW1 and LotR in action, Guild Wars is already way ahead of them.  If you take the few vids we have have GW2, then LotR is completely blown away.

(Caveat:  I have not seen their new zones, and the LotR artists are really talented, however seeing both games in play makes a huge difference over screenshots.)

[Mrbloodworth]

Picking like scenes for comparison was intentional on my part. I already addressed the in motion part. I guess I didn't explain myself very well. Thats fine though, this is more of a derail anyway. GW1 had much more confined camera perspectives and .... there is a lot to consider, would take an entire thread by itself.