Cataclysm

[Shrike]

Anyone else worried that significantly altered classes won't be "balanced" for another six months post-launch?

I play a shaman. Since we've never been balanced properly, I'm kinda used to it. Not so much worried as resigned. I don't much care for what I've been reading on the PTR either.

Things still seem very unsettled, especially if they're shooting for a Nov 2 release. 

[Dren]

I have 10 80's to lvl.  I've got time.  I'm hardly even reading about the Beta.  I really don't care, because I know none of it will be true come launch and then again months later.  I'll play until it stops being fun.  I guess I'm just not that anal to predict when, where, and how sucky it will be in the future.

[Rendakor]

I'm really not liking what I hear from the forums about ret paladins. Whenever I read anything about my class/spec they may as well be talking about another game. (This is like what, at least the third total redesign?) Then there's the video of one getting soloed by a hunter pet, and numerous reports of shit DPS. But don't worry I'm sure everything will be fixed by the time it comes out.

Could be worse, you could have a DK for a main. I suspect there's going to be quite a few DKs played up to about, oh, L83 or so and then abandoned for their old retadin/hunter/warlock main.

The DK tank changes aren't bad; we're getting a couple new toys that were hidden in other trees; my only real complaint is the Death Strike nerf. I haven't played DPS on my DK since the early Naxx days (aside from occasionally spec swapping for fights that didn't require 3 tanks) so I'm not sure if that's what your comment is aimed at.

[WindupAtheist]

I don't like this strategy of making the 4.0 test public without any attempt whatsoever to balance the numbers. All the reports turn into nothing but "T10 tanks dying to H-UK trash, death knights more worthless than the ret paladins getting soloed by hunter pets, game totally fucked!" and you just KNOW that while it won't be that bad by the time it goes live, the game is going to be a total fucking mess for months.

And seriously, will they ever have any idea of what the fuck to do with paladins, ret in particular? Every single time the version number increments left of the decimal point, my class/spec gets ripped out and replaced with a thematically similar but mechanically totally fucking different one. Like sure, whatever they've settled on now will be totally great, whatever. But I'm about 99% sure that if we could go into the future and look at a 5.0 paladin from the Lich King Strikes Back (or whatever) expansion, it would have NOTHING in common with anything on display right now.

[Ingmar]

For the non-holy paladins this is really more of an incremental change it feels like to me. Well for ret anyway, I've never really tried prot. The core 'mash the thing that is lit up' playstyle is still there more or less, there's just the extra choice to make of when/how to blow your holy power.

[WindupAtheist]

I don't recognize the names of 75% of the abilites that get thrown around on the paladin forum anymore, but I'm sure DPS will remain a matter of standing behind the boss and facerolling. Someone will want to come in here and dispute it, but the fact is that PVE DPS is the easiest task in the game that anyone has any use for, and the macro system is deliberately gimped just to keep it from all being done with one button.

In terms of PVP, I barely recognize what the hell is supposed to be going on. That shit with the long-range judgements giving a speed boost is game-changing in itself. Game. Changing. I'm going to have to learn things from the ground up again.

[Lakov_Sanite]

judgements giving a speed boost

Seriously, fuck this.

[Fordel]

That's how PvP is every expansion though, I'm not sure why this surprises you. One of the glaring holes in a Ret toolbox is catching/keeping up with a target that can kite. They've taken away a lot of the old "ret just heals through it" power so they had to compensate with something else.



Ing: Prot Paladins will actually play very differently from the looks of it, in terms of how they approach the actual tanking.

[Merusk]

Anyone else worried that significantly altered classes won't be "balanced" for another six months post-launch?

The same as it ever was.  This is nothing new. Hunters experienced the nerf cycle in BC, as did Feral Druids.  Retadins and DKs felt it in LK.  All started out "too powerful" and were nerfed down as the xp progressed.   You want a class that doesn't get nerfed to uselessness, play a healer.

So I'm weak and subbed again to check out the changes.  I don't understand the DK whining. I'm getting 10k+ howling blasts back-to-back-to-back as 2h frost.  (Seriously I got a 12k, 10k, 14k on the boss dummy in 3gcds while waiting on runes to refresh)That's going to get a cool-down again right quick as folks actually start figuring things out. Other than that I'm not sure how to work out the spec as I never used it before. 

Unholy was tricky, since there's a lot more to juggle now but you have to understand they WANT you to use haste.  A lot of DK's simply don't have enough and are probably still using the old Frost/Blood pres for damage buff instead of using Improved Unholy.  The spec is lacking in that you don't have enough unholy runes and way, way, waaaaay too many frost.  Seriously I was spamming icy touch more than most of my unholy skills because now that Scourge strike is only 1 UH rune there's no other place to spend them.  Sudden Doom procs a lot. Like a lot a lot, so often I'd say I missed procs because I was hitting rune abilities and Death Coil was hitting for 6-8k.  With speed of the Vyrkul my Heroic Bryntoll was down to 2.0 speed.  Crazy!

The pet seemed to build his 5 stacks of "whupass" pretty slowly, so it's not like you'll be mashing Infusion every time it's available on boss fights.  However, one of my primary worries, a lack of Runic Power generation, was unfounded. I always seemed to have it when I needed it.

Really, the biggest change is it's a prioritization cycle now.. not a set cycle.  "If x is up then hit it, unless y or z is up."  Much more fun and interactive than "1,2,3,4,3,5,5,4,4,4,dc,dc,dc,HoW/Garg"   So yeah, because it's more difficult I totally see folks running back to their hunters, mages and rogues.  They're more than welcome to.

I need to get a beta-friendly DPS tool so I can see if it's just big numbers flashing or if I'm actually doing DPS.

[WindupAtheist]

Random, but how long do you guys think the shaman and druid knockbacks are going to survive once PVP is focus on rated battlegrounds? I can't imagine "I rode up in EOTS and blew half of the other team off the cliff lolol" is going to last very long when/if Blizz starts paying attention to BGs.

[Fordel]

Random, but how long do you guys think the shaman and druid knockbacks are going to survive once PVP is focus on rated battlegrounds? I can't imagine "I rode up in EOTS and blew half of the other team off the cliff lolol" is going to last very long when/if Blizz starts paying attention to BGs.

Well they added one to the Succubus pet too, so probably for a long, long time. Only the Shaman one is really capable of sending people flying, all the other knockbacks in game really need the other guy to be standing right on the edge. The Shaman one is also avoidable through positioning.

I still remember this one game of AV where I knocked this one guy out of the North bunker a dozen times because he kept standing inside the window. He would run in, cap the bunker, then 'hide' in the window. I would pop out of stealth, typhoon him out and recap the bunker and stealth up again.

Seriously, at least 7 or 8 times, it even topped off that 'defend the bunker' achievement for me. 

[WindupAtheist]

Nah, I give it a few months of "LF3M rated EOTS, shamans only" before they decide "just don't go near the flag" isn't a suitable remedy for having a one-shot multikill in the game, no matter how conditional.

[Fabricated]

I only pray they adjust the actual numbers for prot warriors before the expansion drops because on the PTR I am literally useless as a tank unless I'm given like 10+ seconds of headway to get aggro. The change to the playstyle is fine by me (ignoring how I nearly pop a blood vessel not hitting Heroic Strike every time it lights up after like 2 years of doing so), but my threat is in the shitter. I took nothing but threat talents and even after doing the ideal rotation for a group pull (rend, Thunderclap, tab-target devastate/revenge and hitting TC 2 more times, shockwave)  and having NO ONE dps until I was finished it was trivial to pull everything off me.

[Ingmar]

Prot warrior dps numbers are all kinds of messed up right now, yeah. Even shield slam, which supposedly gets ridiculously high as you get towards 85, was critting for about what I normally *hit* with it for me. Devastate was ugly too.

[Fordel]

Nah, I give it a few months of "LF3M rated EOTS, shamans only" before they decide "just don't go near the flag" isn't a suitable remedy for having a one-shot multikill in the game, no matter how conditional.

In EoTS, you can (and often should) ignore the flag entirely and win the game. Three Nodes is actually faster then 2 nodes + Flag caps.


Not that I think any number of shamans would really make the flag unassailable to begin with. Punting keyboard turning retards is different then trying to take out semi-organized players.


Plus clearly, the solution is all priest counter teams to MC the shamans.

[Fabricated]

Prot warrior dps numbers are all kinds of messed up right now, yeah. Even shield slam, which supposedly gets ridiculously high as you get towards 85, was critting for about what I normally *hit* with it for me. Devastate was ugly too.

If you have a very patient group, you can let mobs beat on you for like 20 seconds and max out your vengeance buff and start critting for like 25k with shield slam. Ironically even if you had 20 seconds to build aggro you'd still lose control of the mobs the instant the DPS opened up hard.

[WindupAtheist]

In EoTS, you can (and often should) ignore the flag entirely and win the game. Three Nodes is actually faster then 2 nodes + Flag caps.


Not that I think any number of shamans would really make the flag unassailable to begin with. Punting keyboard turning retards is different then trying to take out semi-organized players.


Plus clearly, the solution is all priest counter teams to MC the shamans.

I know you don't mean mind control. That spell has a casting time, can be trinketed out of, requires the priest to waste precious seconds steering the enemy, and above all is single target. There must be some other spell abbreviated MC which functions differently, and makes the analogy something other than an insult to the reader's intelligence.

Battlegrounds are poised to become the primary PVP focus of the game for the first time since Vanilla. I can't conceive of them carefully nerfing this stun by 1 second and that nuke by 5% damage, only to leave a potential one-shot multikill just sitting there indefinitely.

If they do, well then I want a big blue X painted on the ground next to... say... the blacksmith flag in Arathi Basin. Then when anyone comes near me while I'm standing on the X, my divine storm can hit them for a million damage instantly. Fuck you, go cap stables or something. Or get someone to mind control me.

[apocrypha]

Part 2 of 4.0 is background downloading here now. Part 1 was 1.74Gb (EU). Part 2 is 4.5Gb 

[Ashamanchill]

Random, but how long do you guys think the shaman and druid knockbacks are going to survive once PVP is focus on rated battlegrounds? I can't imagine "I rode up in EOTS and blew half of the other team off the cliff lolol" is going to last very long when/if Blizz starts paying attention to BGs.

Tor Annroc is back bitches!!!!

I don't like this strategy of making the 4.0 test public without any attempt whatsoever to balance the numbers. All the reports turn into nothing but "T10 tanks dying to H-UK trash, death knights more worthless than the ret paladins getting soloed by hunter pets, game totally fucked!" and you just KNOW that while it won't be that bad by the time it goes live, the game is going to be a total fucking mess for months.

Yeah I'm with WuA on this. 'Oh it'll be fine, so your getting one shot by some classes now while your class feels like it's duel wielding wiffle bats, everything will be fine once cata comes out and we're all 85' is a rather weak response. So for that length of time, we have to play the game with pvp removed, or in some cases (based on what I'm hearing about tank threat across the board), pve removed? Fuck that.

[Lantyssa]

Tor Annroc is back bitches!!!!

I loved Tor Annroc!  I used the skills gained there in Tier 4 ORvR to knock two Witch Elves into the lava who thought they could jump me.

[Merusk]

Part 2 of 4.0 is background downloading here now. Part 1 was 1.74Gb (EU). Part 2 is 4.5Gb 

It's going to be a huge, huge patch.  Remember they're having to replace ALL of the vanilla zones, plus the new textures. That's a lot of artwork.

[Ashamanchill]

I loved Tor Annroc!

I actually did too, being a swordmaster with a 360 degree knockback did have it's advantages. I only meant, that I have never encountered a more reviled BG in any game.

[Arrrgh]

Random beta thoughts.

I've given up tanking instances in beta. It's too annoying. Keeping agro is far harder, and if you lose agro the mobs insta kill the healer.

PUGs will be CC nightmares. Those random low DPS idiots who just slow things down a bit now? Wait till you're dependent on their CC skills. They either fail CC altogether, do the same mob, spend so much time applying the CC that the mob is already to the group and in AE range, or actual get the CC right and then forget to change target and break it themselves.

My comments earlier about how easy it is to solo multiple mobs as a DK tank? They heard me and nerfed the hell out of death strike.

[Typhon]

Don't worry too much about it being fun, they'll just tweak some numbers (TM)

[Fordel]

WUA, were you that Paladin I knocked out of the Bunker a dozen times?   

[Sjofn]

Tor Annroc is back bitches!!!!

I loved Tor Annroc!  I used the skills gained there in Tier 4 ORvR to knock two Witch Elves into the lava who thought they could jump me.

Atta girl. <3

[Lt.Dan]

Part 2 of 4.0 is background downloading here now. Part 1 was 1.74Gb (EU). Part 2 is 4.5Gb 

I think the 4.5Gb includes part one.  When it started for me the first 1.6 Gb zoomed by... then the rest started downloading at 32kb/s :P

[Merusk]

So I installed recount and hit-up the boss dummy on the DK and reports of  Dks sucking are highly exaggerated.  The gameplay is MUCH different, yes, but I was still hitting 6.6 - 6.8k DPS unbuffed on the dummy just spamming things as they lit-up with no sense of what should be a priority over another. 

Blood tanking, however, is going to be an exercise in pain.  Just trying a few rotations on the dummy meant a lot of rune starvation and sitting around being unable to hit anything at all for aggro. You're going to be relying on Death Grip and Dark Command a LOT it seems.

[SurfD]

Blood tanking, however, is going to be an exercise in pain.  Just trying a few rotations on the dummy meant a lot of rune starvation and sitting around being unable to hit anything at all for aggro. You're going to be relying on Death Grip and Dark Command a LOT it seems.

Not really up on the DK tank Rotations for Cata, but don't DK tanks require a target that hits back to proc a lot of their "anti-rune-starvation" abilities?  Test dummies are bad for tank testing on, since they dont hit back, meaning things that proc off of blocks / dodges / parries never light up.

[Simond]

Everybody's tanking is screwed up, to a greater or lesser extent. Expect a whole bunch of changes (read: nerf reversions) post 4.0, and then even more a few months after Cataclysm goes live and Joe Bloggs still can't tank heroics reliably enough.

[Selby]

Not really up on the DK tank Rotations for Cata, but don't DK tanks require a target that hits back to proc a lot of their "anti-rune-starvation" abilities?

Yes, Rune Strike requires you either parry or dodge an attack.  It's one of those things I *always* hit when it's up as it generates pretty decent threat and occupies time waiting for runes to come back.

[Azazel]

Random beta thoughts.
I've given up tanking instances in beta. It's too annoying. Keeping agro is far harder, and if you lose agro the mobs insta kill the healer.
PUGs will be CC nightmares. Those random low DPS idiots who just slow things down a bit now? Wait till you're dependent on their CC skills. They either fail CC altogether, do the same mob, spend so much time applying the CC that the mob is already to the group and in AE range, or actual get the CC right and then forget to change target and break it themselves.

Looks like I've got my Cata game plan worked out then:
In no particular order:

Level mages to 85. do dailies till bored. avoid instances.
Level solo alts as far as I can through TBC/WOTLK till bored.
Level lowbie Blood Elves/Druids/Worgen/Goblins as far through the content as possible until bored.
Quit for 6months-2 years.
Return for newish content and old stuff that's been rererebalanced to no longer cockstabbingly painful.
 

[Lantyssa]

Not really up on the DK tank Rotations for Cata, but don't DK tanks require a target that hits back to proc a lot of their "anti-rune-starvation" abilities?

Yes, Rune Strike requires you either parry or dodge an attack.  It's one of those things I *always* hit when it's up as it generates pretty decent threat and occupies time waiting for runes to come back.

Rune Strike is the only reactive ability I can think of off-hand, and that just uses rune power.  (Amazing how fast one forgets.)  My anti-starvation was making sure I had several of the X Rune becomes Death Rune upon refresh abilities.  Once I was through my first rotation, I either had enough rune power or runes off cool down that I could do something.

I do believe I expressed concern about the new rune mechanics though.  For some builds it might not be a problem, but the way it was described it would have completely messed up my Blood Tank.  I wouldn't be surprised if that is causing problems, too.

[Fordel]

Did we see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWI5XTmGrmo ?

[Rendakor]

Yea, it's being discussed in the God: I Love Blizzard thread.