Cataclysm

[Musashi]

I keep clicking on this thread for new infos and am slowly losing faith in mankind as a result.

[Rasix]

It's not our fault the horde is trying to kill your faith in humanity.   

[Kail]

Don't blame me, I didn't write it.

Nobody wrote it, that's the problem. Where you see a full scale invasion of whatever (Ashenvale?), I see a few wandering orcs doing not much of anything.  Which of us is right?  Who knows; it's not explicitly stated, and it's not like it's actually happening or anything so we can't head out and check.  I can point to some quest that says "Orcs Rule," you can go to page seventy four of the comic book where someone makes an offhand comment about Orcs raping babies, and we can run in circles all day.  But when you start saying "sure, they're both kind of ambiguous... but only one side is EVIL while claiming to be GOOD and wants to MURDER EVERYBODY" then it starts looking a bit weird.  Both sides are chock full of stories of the other side being bastards.  That's what the game is about.  You can try to say "Well, Horde has nine million and six points of evil, and the Alliance only has nine million and four, therefore the Alliance is justified in smacking the crap out of the Horde, and in fact doing so makes them less evil since it's a morally defensible act" and so on until you get to this weird extremist point where it's perfectly acceptable to slaughter them by the millions because they're evil and they deserve it (and in fact it would be morally remiss not to cleanse the world of such evil beings), but when they kill us by the millions it's another atrocity to point to when we're trying to prove how EVIL they are.

Sylvanas has the gall to develop an actual weapon for killing actual people, this makes her evil, and therefore we should murder her and anyone who follows her, before someone gets hurt.  Dwarves in Bael Modan are only defending their territory from the Tauren, and are therefore justified in using lethal force against anyone who comes close.  Some Apothecary goes dipshit and bombs both teams, and it's the Horde's fault, so they must die.  These are all things where you can easily view them from the other side and make the exact opposite arguments.  They're completely relative.  What puzzles me is why someone would claim one of these points of view to be "right" and another to be "wrong," given the fact that all of these factions are open to anyone (any player, I mean) who wants to join one of them.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Successful troll was successful.

[WindupAtheist]

Don't be That Guy. The guy who cares too much about the topic at hand to just go "lol nerds" like the cool kids, but doesn't like the conclusion being drawn and can't think of a handy rebuttal, so he just posts "WHO REALLY KNOWS ANYWAY" instead. Because I've seen it in a hundred nerd-debates of yore and it never has the intended effect.

Blizzard's writing suffers from having too many cooks in the kitchen, and they (quite rightly) have no compunctions about throwing in all sorts of strange retcons and unlikely circumstances in order to further their game design goals, but pretending it's all a total cipher is just bullshitting.

I can pull up everything from seven-year-old WC3 cutscenes, to five-year-old WoW quests and their related text, to brand-new Cataclysm spoilers to demonstrate that the Horde was/is/will continue to invade Ashenvale. If you don't like it, well, tough shit. That's the fucking story. Same with the rest of it.

[Kail]

Don't be That Guy. The guy who cares too much about the topic at hand to just go "lol nerds" like the cool kids, but doesn't like the conclusion being drawn and can't think of a handy rebuttal, so he just posts "WHO REALLY KNOWS ANYWAY" instead. Because I've seen it in a hundred nerd-debates of yore and it never has the intended effect.

Well, I don't know about having an "intended effect" besides killing a few hours.  I just find your position a bit curious.

I mean, maybe the Horde is "invading" Ashenvale very, very slowly.  I'm not claiming that they're paladins of peace and awesome.  But there are plenty of instances of the Alliance attacking Horde, too, and what gets me is the argument where those ones "don't count" or whatever.  There are a ton of Alliance mobs all over the Horde zones, just as there are Horde mobs all over the Alliance zones.  You've got marines in Durotar, Outriders in the Barrens, Night Elf Saboteurs in Quel'Thalas, Dwarves in Mulgore, and so on  Just about the only Horde zone I can think of that isn't host to some Alliance enemies is Silverpine, depending on if you count the Kirin Tor as Alliance or not.

A few posts up you note that the marines bear the same relationship (basically) to the Alliance that the Apothecaries do to the Horde, yet (as far as I can tell) you continue to hold that the Horde is at fault for the actions of the Apothecaries, while the Alliance isn't at fault for the marines.  I can see both being at fault, or neither, but saying one is and the other isn't seems inconsistent to me.  It's the kind of argument I see a lot in threads where someone is personally invested in one side but not the other, like a PS3 vs. Xbox argument, where one guy only owns one of the consoles and wants to believe he made the right choice.  But here, nothing's stopping you from rolling either side (or both), so it just strikes me as a bit odd to see this level of extremism on a topic which, to me, looks very gray.

I think originally I was going to say something about Warcraft, but I can't remember what it was... anyways, sorry for the derail.

[WindupAtheist]

I mean, maybe the Horde is "invading" Ashenvale very, very slowly.

Such is the nature of a mostly-static game, but they are, and we know they eventually do take it over.

There are a ton of Alliance mobs all over the Horde zones, just as there are Horde mobs all over the Alliance zones.  You've got marines in Durotar, Outriders in the Barrens, Night Elf Saboteurs in Quel'Thalas, Dwarves in Mulgore, and so on  Just about the only Horde zone I can think of that isn't host to some Alliance enemies is Silverpine, depending on if you count the Kirin Tor as Alliance or not.

Sure, and there are orcs in Redridge Mountains, Forsaken poisoning people in Hillsbrad, and... shit... at least three completely separate organizations on two different planets all calling themselves "the Horde" right down to having their own Warchiefs. There's a REASON we split hairs when it comes to shit like this. If we actually counted every pack of orcs yelling "For the Horde!" as they raped babies or whatever against Thrall's boys, the list of offenses would be about ten times longer.

A few posts up you note that the marines bear the same relationship (basically) to the Alliance that the Apothecaries do to the Horde, yet (as far as I can tell) you continue to hold that the Horde is at fault for the actions of the Apothecaries, while the Alliance isn't at fault for the marines.

Except the Apothecaries are an organization that was created by Sylvanas for the express purpose of genocide, and the only thing Putress really did wrong was move too soon at the command of the wrong master. That's why all that stuff about Apothecary questgivers wanting to "bring death to the world" even in five-year-old quest text gets brought up constantly. That's why I keep bringing up Sylvanas and her gloating in that Arthas novel about how she's going to wipe out the humans.

By comparison the marines are just the dead-end remnants of a force that was crushed with the help of an Alliance leader years ago. Dipshits operating outside of any known link to the actual Alliance, who think they're still fighting the Second War. In that regard they're more comparable to the orcs running around Redridge (who nobody cares about) than anything else.

And again, even the rest of the Horde doesn't buy this shit. While nobody seems to give a damn about this marine crap, the Forsaken are about to find themselves second-class citizens thanks to the Apothecaries shenanigans. I don't know how much you keep up on forthcoming patches, but in the next one supposedly all the abomination guards in Undercity are history. They're being replaced with orcish overseers scripted to basically say "Fuck you guys, we don't trust you!" to Forsaken players.

[Simond]

I keep clicking on this thread for new infos and am slowly losing faith in mankind as a result.

There is no new news yet, and almost certainly won't be until after Arthas dies and/or the F&F beta leaks start happening. Therefore we've moved on to "Well, Wrynn was the one who officially started this war, remember?" vs "but but but but apothecaries!" 

Well, unless this is a genuine leak of the Cata T11 mage sets:

 

[SurfD]

I'm pretty sure the shirt on that human model is painted on.   

[Fordel]

Technically, everything that isn't a shoulder pad or helm is just painted on in WoW.

[WindupAtheist]

TEAM HORDE IS BLASTING OFF AGAINNNN!

See you in a couple weeks when it's time for another round of the "Forsaken count as Lordaeron, unless I need Stormwind to count as Lordaeron today!" game.

[Sjofn]

I think the orc chick is the hottest in that picture. I am not sure what that means about myself.

[Sheepherder]

You like a little junk in the trunk?

[WindupAtheist]

Blood elf needs a sandwich, like always. And the night elf chick looks strangely like a drag queen in that picture.

[Simond]

Night elf females have always had suspiciously large hands.

[Kageru]

I still figure the horde was planning to use the forsaken as ablative shielding against an invasion from the plaguelands. So the development of any sort of weaponry they can come up with, when they can expect to face massively superior forces, would have made sense to both Thrall and Sylvanas. Besides, they're far enough away from Orgrimmar we'd probably escape the fall-out.

Of course now that Arthas is besieged in Northrend the forsaken are just a risk without any benefit.

[Tannhauser]

I'm very interested to see the results from the Forsaken being forsaken by the Horde.  For that matter will the trolls be too?  Since they might have a city of their own soon?  Will the Alliance fracture any?  I'm not seeing anything about this.  A BE/Forsaken alliance would be logical; they firmly hold Lordaeron and even take Southshore. But the Alliance will have a powerful new base in Gilneas as well as other smaller ones around I assume.

[Fordel]

The Alliance isn't a collective Government, it's more like NATO then anything.

The rumor is that the Alliance will fully retake Stromgarde in Arathi, but I haven't seen any 'official' details about that yet. Gilneas probably won't be a significant Alliance holding though, more of a general battle field. One of the key reasons the Gilneas Worgen are going back to the Alliance is because they can't hold out in Gilneas on their own.

[Ingmar]

Re: Ashenvale: Just play Warcraft 3.

[Delmania]

I can pull up everything from seven-year-old WC3 cutscenes, to five-year-old WoW quests and their related text, to brand-new Cataclysm spoilers to demonstrate that the Horde was/is/will continue to invade Ashenvale. If you don't like it, well, tough shit. That's the fucking story. Same with the rest of it.

Invasion would indicate that the orcs knew the night elves were there and were cutting down wood in support of an offensive against them.  Neither of those claims are remotely true.  Thrall asked Grom to build a base of operations, and the night elves in their typical display of arrogance attacked them without warrant.  The death of Cenarius lies solely on their shoulders.

As for Catalysm itself, there's been very little info.  I think most players are more concerned with 3.3 and the conclusion of Wrath.

[WindupAtheist]

How many years of military expansion and resource extraction is "Baww, they shot first and asked questions later when we turned up on their land!" supposed to be worth exactly, anyway? Because I guarantee if the Alliance reaction to some dwarf archaeologists getting wasted was "Okay fuck you guys, you're mean so we're gonna contest Mulgore for the next hundred years!" there would be Horde tears from here to infinity.

[LK]

IT'S NOT WORTH DISCUSSING. 

Seriously! Why are you putting more thought into it than Blizzard's game designers?

This isn't Bioware where they break down and analyze every single spoken word to maintain consistency to the universe and the story. They just write the most entertaining fluff that works for the moment and move on.

Everyone in Warcraft acts unrealistically and you can rightly claim that God, a.k.a. Blizzard, influences and enacts all their decisions. Personalities are created out of thin air to guide events towards the intended climaxes (Garrosh).

Cataclysm to me, while it will be real cool, reeks of Dragonlance: The Fifth Age, and because Metzen has such a strong love of Dragonlance, I keep thinking this is a stunt to have his own little Second Cataclysm. That he is huge into comics also explains a *lot* about how things are playing out with Blizzard lore.

[Delmania]

I like Cataclysm from the perspective that it's going to shake up the setting of the game from the fairly static settings it's been since launch.  I can only hope Blizzard continues along this path and makes the world to be dynamic as  players advance through the story, so that it feels like I am playing through something.   

Lore wise, my hope is that Cataclysm gets us back the the core conflict that started this: the orcs versus humans.  Also, I hope the Burning Legion makes a comeback because they are supposed to be the source of all of this.

[Delmania]

The more I think about this, the more excited I get about Cataclysm if I am reading the signs right.  I always felt that in WoW 2.0, the content was aimed at telling us how the relations between the Horde and the Alliance were improving.  Essentially, that all of these external threats were uniting the 2 factions under a common banner.  In Wrath, however, it seems like they shifted modes and decided to make it more realistic in the sense that while they did have a common enemy, both sides do not trust one another, and in fact, in battling the Lich King, the situation only gets worse (Wrathgate).  With 3.3 and the placement of the Undercity under martial law, it seems the writers are trying to deal with the whole "death to the living thing".

I earnestly hope this means that these world enders, like Arthas and Deathwing will take a back seat to the more interesting and dynamic relationship between the Horde and the Alliance. I also hope to see a resurgence of the Burning Legion, because they are still present.

[Malakili]

I like Cataclysm from the perspective that it's going to shake up the setting of the game from the fairly static settings it's been since launch.  I can only hope Blizzard continues along this path and makes the world to be dynamic as  players advance through the story, so that it feels like I am playing through something.   

You can hardly say that Cataclysm is "dynamic" its just replacing one static world with another.

[Delmania]

Well it's changing the current static world, and they are making more usage of phasing to have the world change in response to the players' actions.  I am not expecting a Shadowbane type situation, but anything other than current situation is better in my book. 

[Soulflame]

Orcs vs Humans isn't even the core conflict.  It's Order vs Chaos.  Titans vs Burning Legion plus Old Gods scrapping over Azeroth for who knows whatever reason.

Pretty much everything that has fallen out from that has been the influence of the Old Gods, or invasions by the forces of the Burning Legion.

[Delmania]

Orcs vs Humans isn't even the core conflict.  It's Order vs Chaos.  Titans vs Burning Legion plus Old Gods scrapping over Azeroth for who knows whatever reason.

Pretty much everything that has fallen out from that has been the influence of the Old Gods, or invasions by the forces of the Burning Legion.

Touche, then again, I heard a rumor that the first Warcraft was originally a Warhammer game that GW pulled the plug on.  Rather then ditch the game, Blizzard re-branded it.   The reasons you for those fights are because the Old Gods were the rulers of Azeroth, the Titans came along and pushed them aside, and then the Burning Legion came along and has since failed 3 times in conquering Azeroth.  But all of that was added in WC3 and WoW.

The core conflict has always been the Horde vs. the Alliance.  Warcraft 1 & 2 were all about that, with the exception that Warcraft 2 added in the "orcs are alien space raiders!".

[Soulflame]

Orcs are alien space raiders that, I might remind you, were fodder in the army of the Burning Legion.

[LK]

It was so much easier when one side was defending their homelands from the other side that was being manipulated by a larger power bent on world domination. Now they're just kinda hatin' in general.

[Delmania]

It was so much easier when one side was defending their homelands from the other side

Even better!

[Simond]

It was so much easier when one side was defending their homelands from the other side that was being manipulated by a larger power bent on world domination.

You mean like when Deathwing's daughter was running the Alliance, and all the Horde wanted was peace? 

[Morfiend]

And I mean that with the most love possible. 

[Lantyssa]

You mean like when Deathwing's daughter was running the Alliance, and all the Horde wanted was peace? 

She was obviously less efficient at it than King McBigChinAndHair.

[Kail]

That he is huge into comics also explains a *lot* about how things are playing out with Blizzard lore.

I hadn't thought about that before.  Comics (in the Superhero sense) have a lot in common with MMO stories, in that they have to keep telling a story (or series of smaller stories) with the same characters forever and give the illusion of change without actually changing anything.

And you have to pay money every month to find out what's going on.