Cataclysm

[caladein]

And, right after Ghostcrawler's post of how heroics are exactly where Blizzard wants them, the full PTR patch notes went up. Full of nerfs to Heroics.

 

That's what happens when you don't actually read what he posted, which was much longer than the cherry-picked quote above, and included among other things that make it sound less unreasonable:

As always, we're keeping an eye on things. There are a few bosses that seem responsible for more wipes than the others: Commander Springvale, Beauty, Altairus, and Admiral Ripsnarl perhaps. By the time you read this, you might have seen us implement Restoration druid buffs intended to keep them competitive in raids. We also just tend to nerf content over time because the original players hitting that content have moved on, so we want to open it up to a wider audience.

Yes, there's definitely some changes to most (all?) the Heroics but a lot of them are quality-of-life changes and in the case of Halls of Origination, a few buffs.

[Khaldun]

Man, I just do not agree that the success rate has improved in heroic pugs. It's going down rapidly for me. If you got in some the early ones, you were with hardcores, catasses, etc. who at least tend to know content and be able to work their toons pretty well. Now lots of straight up failures have tweaked their gear such that they can queue and all you need in some cases is just one of them. Coupled with people who think they know what they're doing but don't.

I was in a SFK pug two days ago where two guys kept shouting orders about interrupts on the first boss that were actively contradictory and then complaining that me, the failrogue, wasn't interrupting the right thing. I'm like, look, you get a choice of which thing you want me to interrupt. I'm cool, I'll go with the plan, but don't freaking scream to interrupt something else, change your own behavior and then complain because I'm not sure any longer what the plan is when we're 25% in to the fight. Everybody has to do the right thing, guys, you know, *teamwork*. That's the basic problem: some of the heroics require coordinated action, not just "do your own thing in isolation from everyone else".

[Paelos]

Yeah but at least that's a boss fight. Wiping on boss fights is part of a pve game. Wasting untold hours on trash is not, and that's why tanks aren't queuing up anymore.

[kildorn]

Trash isn't as bad as we gear up. My main issue comes up with bosses where I know the mechanic of the fight means that X random player can make the fight unbeatable. Dragon/warlock dude in H-GB for example. If you have someone who sucks at the idea of kiting and he gets tagged for an elemental, you're screwed.

There are a lot of punishingly specific mechanics in the heroic fights, because without the ability to oneshot you if you fuck up, things will eventually turn back into Wrath's "just heal through it"  bullshit. But it still makes pugging a heroic a painful experience.

[Fordel]

Latest PTR Change:

Shapeshifitng no longer breaks roots.



 

[Rendakor]

Thank god. Wish it didn't get snares either tbh.

[Fordel]

It kills my Moonchicken entirely. Like, the Instant Root Glyph change was already going to do that too, but this buries the body 10 feet down now.

[Rendakor]

Well, ferals have been rigged in WSG and whatever the new one is for like, ever. So fuck them.

[Ingmar]

Wow, that's pretty much instant unviability for our arena team right there.

[proudft]

I guess my complaining that they took away heroism from our shaman/paladin team will not get many tears of sympathy from Fordel now.

[Ashamanchill]

I'm glad I've settled on my prot pally this xpac.

Edit: They are going to have to rework feral at this point if they put this through. Unless root=useless is where they want them to be.

[apocrypha]

Man, I just do not agree that the success rate has improved in heroic pugs.

Yeah I may have to revise that statement. I think I just had a really lucky week or so. Lastnight and this morning have been terrible. All my available gaming time has been wasted on failed groups.

Only thing I got out of it was enough time in the queues to get all the dailies done I could possibly want.

[kildorn]

The issue seems to be that it's a nerf aimed squarely at the crazy difficulty of removing a kitty from whatever they want to be attacking, but winds up beating the crap out of the other two specs, too.

[Merusk]

I'm glad I've settled on my prot pally this xpac.

Edit: They are going to have to rework feral at this point if they put this through. Unless root=useless is where they want them to be.

You mean like.. oh.. every other melee? 

My opinion mirrors Rendakor.  Fuck 'em.

[kaid]

They are still immune to poly and can break out of snares easy enough. Roots tend to break pretty fast anyway and this makes them no worse off than warriors.

Now they too get to experience the joy of blowing every escape they can muster to just try to touch a frost mage like I do as a warrior.

[jakonovski]

As a Frost Mage, Ferals are what kills me while Warriors just flail ineffectively. I have to blow every cooldown to even get the possibility of doing enough damage to kill a bearcat.

[K9]

Look at all you people with your killing.

I'm just happy not to die instantly on my disc priest. Killing people is something that happens to other people

\wrists

[Shrike]

Last night's PuG reminded me of another trend I've been seeing more of (which is to say, I"ve seen it about 5 times in two weeks so far), which is very heavily geared guild groups PuGging out a slot or two to dps. This in itself isn't remarkable (our guild does it some), but what it brings with it is worthy of comment.

Two things. One is they rarely use CC and just attempt to steamroll the heroic--usually successfully, but not always. If they do CC, it's invariably a guild hunter or mageling and they get pissy if I jump in with hex or shackle. The second is they'll amost invariably kick any other dps that's pulling less than 9k. It's definately a zerg mentality and the dps really does need to smoke.

Most interesting was a PALS FOR LIFE group (of Leroy Jenkins fame, I do believe) I joined. They ran like clockwork (no Leroy zergs, which was actually a bit disappointing), and the hunter was truly amazing. They didn't bother to ask me to hex or shackle and it was Grim Batol, where both are pretty handy. Probably the smoothest HGB I've ever been in, though. The other side of it was another group I had about a week and half ago that went through the third dps slot on about every boss. It was in SFK, and, yeah, I think we had about 8 dps total through the instance. The tank was pulling (no CC ) about 8k dps and it you weren't above that, they'd kick on every boss. Ironically, he died on the last boss at 5% and I had to tank him to finish the job.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Last night's PuG reminded me of another trend I've been seeing more of (which is to say, I"ve seen it about 5 times in two weeks so far), which is very heavily geared guild groups PuGging out a slot or two to dps. This in itself isn't remarkable (our guild does it some), but what it brings with it is worthy of comment.

Two things. One is they rarely use CC and just attempt to steamroll the heroic--usually successfully, but not always. If they do CC, it's invariably a guild hunter or mageling and they get pissy if I jump in with hex or shackle. The second is they'll amost invariably kick any other dps that's pulling less than 9k. It's definately a zerg mentality and the dps really does need to smoke.

Most interesting was a PALS FOR LIFE group (of Leroy Jenkins fame, I do believe) I joined. They ran like clockwork (no Leroy zergs, which was actually a bit disappointing), and the hunter was truly amazing. They didn't bother to ask me to hex or shackle and it was Grim Batol, where both are pretty handy. Probably the smoothest HGB I've ever been in, though. The other side of it was another group I had about a week and half ago that went through the third dps slot on about every boss. It was in SFK, and, yeah, I think we had about 8 dps total through the instance. The tank was pulling (no CC ) about 8k dps and it you weren't above that, they'd kick on every boss. Ironically, he died on the last boss at 5% and I had to tank him to finish the job.

8k dps while it seems high is not unreasonable to ask for and on the commander boss in sfk is pretty necessary. 

[Paelos]

I fully expect everyone in a heroic to be doing 7k minimum on the whole. As a tank you're going to be doing around 5k if you're paying attention and in 333+ gear. I've seen dps pulling 10k+ and those are pure gold. I've also seen dps in heroics all too often pulling 6k. That's where the problem really lies for me. That means those people are trying, and they either don't have the right gear or "just aren't getting it."

[Ironwood]

It bothers me that people don't take spec or role into account.  Asking someone to CC and still maintain high DPS is annoying.  Further, Affliction locks directly scale DPS with the amount of fucking enemies that you're taking on at the time.

My own personal rule when I'm tanking is that if shit is getting killed and no-one is dying, then everything's just peachy.  Those types that are scrutinising Recount can eat shit directly out my asshole.

[Shrike]

My own personal rule when I'm tanking is that if shit is getting killed and no-one is dying, then everything's just peachy. 

This is kind of my view of things. However, if the tank (or whomever) isn't marking for CC, and just zerging mobs down, then the dps MUST really turn it on. Some of it is just assholery, but that's why I assume these groups are kicking lowish dps.

Now when you pull a heroic (hello, Lady N...) where your plate dps is pulling 4k and dying in about every geyser, then, yeah, that's a problem that needs to be dealt with. When your plate dps is turning 7.5k and the tank--in partial T11--is turning 8k from the massive vengeance stacks--no CC, remember?--then gets an attitude and kicks the plate dps, not totally warranted in my opinion (the rest of the dps was 10k+, but still...).

And if the mageling is dying, well, that doesn't count. Or a rogue, for that matter. That makes the run even better.

[kildorn]

It bothers me that people don't take spec or role into account.  Asking someone to CC and still maintain high DPS is annoying.  Further, Affliction locks directly scale DPS with the amount of fucking enemies that you're taking on at the time.

My own personal rule when I'm tanking is that if shit is getting killed and no-one is dying, then everything's just peachy.  Those types that are scrutinising Recount can eat shit directly out my asshole.

I only stare at recount during bosses, when classes can settle into a pretty solid rotation and not gain or lose from burst damage. If you're not clearing 3k on a boss, you're doing something wrong (we had a 2.3k destro lock the other day, after the run he was crying about his damage, so I sat him down and gave him How U Destro 101)

As for how many mobs aren't CCed: is the tank dying, is the healer needing to drink every second pull. If either of those are true, CC more. Sure, it hurts my lock's dps, but enh. Everything being AE'd down in 10 seconds mauls my lock's ramp up time, too. Affliction just isn't a trash focused spec ;)

Affliction wise, I can do 10-12k on a boss depending on how many "fuck up your rotation by making you dodge shit or going immune to shit" phases there are, but probably around 6-7k on trash, where most things will die far before I can get full stacks of shadow embrace up, and BoA is still in it's tiny tic phase.

[Paelos]

It bothers me that people don't take spec or role into account.  Asking someone to CC and still maintain high DPS is annoying.  Further, Affliction locks directly scale DPS with the amount of fucking enemies that you're taking on at the time.

My own personal rule when I'm tanking is that if shit is getting killed and no-one is dying, then everything's just peachy.  Those types that are scrutinising Recount can eat shit directly out my asshole.

My personal rule is have you picked up your backpack at the door, or are you expecting someone else to carry it for you? I don't care if things are fine when we have 2 great dps and one suckass pulling 4k not CCing. I'm harder on dps for a reason: they are legion. They can be replaced in a nano-second, so why put up with someone who just plain sucks? Remember that they are doing the job that everyone else is more than happy to do. Either be situationally functional or be high output. Pick one of those and you'll never have a problem from me. If you're both, you rule. If you're neither, you're gone.

[Ironwood]

Indeed.  Which is why I'm one of the tanks that's fun to be with and you have the option of gobbling shit out my asshole.

[Paelos]

Indeed.  Which is why I'm one of the tanks that's fun to be with and you have the option of gobbling shit out my asshole.

You disagree that dps are more than just glorified NPCs?  

But seriously, I don't care if removing a person who's obviously not trying ruins their fun. If the bad dps out there who don't CC or know how to get out of fire don't like that, let them fucking unionize. The Local Morons #102

[Azuredream]

Indeed.  Which is why I'm one of the tanks that's fun to be with and you have the option of gobbling shit out my asshole.

You disagree that dps are more than just glorified NPCs?   

But seriously, I don't care if removing a person who's obviously not trying ruins their fun. If the bad dps out there who don't CC or know how to get out of fire don't like that, let them fucking unionize.

What if they are trying, but they just suck? How do you tell the difference?

[Paelos]

What if they are trying, but they just suck? How do you tell the difference?

People that are trying do some of the following: CC, interrupt, don't go afk, keep up, stay on the skull, stay out of fire most of the time, etc. Their dps is irrelevent because they are situationally aware.

If they can't handle that they aren't trying. If they are really trying and they can't handle that, quit the game.

[K9]

You can get hints from recount. You should be able to tell after 1-2 trash pulls if someone is hitcapped or not. As a healer I can usually see what people are doing and the DPS who is pulling aggro by trying to solo an elite or who stands around for 5-10s after combat has started always stand out.

Mainly it's an attitude thing. If I ask them if they could do more DPS and they are contrite or apologetic, I'll keep them and try to help them. If they get pissy they can fuck right off. Then again, I run with 3-4 guildmates most of the time so I don't really get to see the worst of PuGs all the time.

People that are trying do some of the following: CC, interrupt, don't go afk, keep up, stay on the skull, stay out of fire most of the time, etc. Their dps is irrelevent because they are situationally aware.

If they can't handle that they aren't trying. If they are really trying and they can't handle that, quit the game.

This pretty much.

[Threash]

We booted a lock from a SFK run yesterday because he was pulling around 4-5k dps and wouldn't respond at all when we tried talking to him.  Replaced him immediately with a hunter who did great.  I'm not playing for other peoples fun, I'm playing for mine.

[apocrypha]

My mage has just started heroics, having hit 333 iLvl average, and when I'm interrupting, moving, CCing and re-CCing he sometimes pulls 4-5k on a fight. With a clear run he hits 9-10k on a boss fight with all cooldowns up but most heroic runs aren't like that.

People kicking just on DPS numbers are wankstains. It's just not that simple.

[Lakov_Sanite]

There is no excuse for spec anymore.  Affl lock not doing well? You should have dual spec, go destro.  If you wanna be a frost mage or subtlety rogue or whatever lower dps spec you better pull your weight and if not, switch. It's not lilke asking someone to go from tank to healer here. Every class have a good dps spec for heroic, no reason not to use it.

[Paelos]

There is no excuse for spec anymore.  Affl lock not doing well? You should have dual spec, go destro.  If you wanna be a frost mage or subtlety rogue or whatever lower dps spec you better pull your weight and if not, switch. It's not lilke asking someone to go from tank to healer here. Every class have a good dps spec for heroic, no reason not to use it.

But what if that lock wants to PeeVeePee?!?!  

If you're a dps you should at the worst have a pve and pvp spec. At best, you have a trash spec and a boss spec.

[Ironwood]

 

There's a lot of Polishing of Armor going on in here.

So very Un-Christian.

[K9]

At best, you have a trash spec and a boss spec.

That's a bit over the top for heroics really. I frankly cannot be arsed to wait for a minute before and after each boss so some mage or lock can switch specs, rebuff and drink to full. It's hardly like the disparity between trash and bosses is insurmountable.