Ancient history - AC2

[aeiouy]

AC2 is a weird memory for me. I remember my experience extremely fondly, but for many odd reasons.  It was the first and perhaps only game that I ever rushed to the level cap.  It is also the only game where I actively and regularly exploited game mechanics.  There were so many issues in the game.  I remember initially having some kind of melee-based enchanter but morphing into an Archer with Enchanter buffs because it was so easy to exploit mobs in PVE.  There were known nests all over the world where you could kill higher level mobs with impunity with range.

I also remember one of the instances that you could run.  You could essentially put this books or glyphs or some object down on the ground and make a wall on the floor so the boss could not get within melee range.  He would just stay at range and you would just overpower him with range damage from the raid.

Part of me rates the game overall really highly, but I realize now it was more like at that time in my life and with the people I was playing with, I had a lot of fun with the game.  I actually think the game did do some interesting things, and I think the class that made walls (can't remember now), was pretty interesting, along with a couple of others...  but the thing was seriously a mess from a bug standpoint.

There was such an attitude of disinterest about rampant exploiting that most people ended up doing it.. and that is not something I have ever really taken part of on any regular or ongoing basis in any other game I have played.

it was also one of the dangers with a semi-skill based system.  Even though it had a class structure, it still was pretty skill dependent.  Moreso than Wow is now, I suspect.  There were so many paths to go down to exploit.  With all the bugs and such, the hard choices were which way were you going to choose to exploit.  I remember I used to camp dragons with a guildmate and we used to sit there all the time and catch these dragons on a rock and then just ping them for 10 minutes until they died, get the loot, and experience, repeat.  I am starting to think that so many other factors make the experiences of these games meaningful beyond the game itself, that even with a game that was as dysfunctional as AC2 apparently was, someone could still have a top notch and overall memorable experience.

[aeiouy]

Almost every skill in the game was broken in some way. Some skills literally did nothing; others were too costly or too powerful; some started out super strong and then got weaker as you leveled up the skill.

AHA! I knew the bounty hunters skill "lucky charm" did nothing. For literally years there was rumor and speculation that ranged from "improves hit or crit" to "increases drop rates" to "does nothing" and "is a developer joke".

Now we know... i think 

LOL.  I forgot about that.  I was a bounty hunter before I turned into an archer enchanter.

I used that Lucky charm skill.  I actually do think it did something.  I did testing at the time.  It made you get loot like 1 or 2 levels higher than you would.  So if you looted a level 43 mob, you would get loot from the table for a level 44 mob. That is my very fuzzy recollection of what it actually ended up doing.

[tkinnun0]

I remember a post from Citan near the end where he essentially defined soloing as duo gameplay. I wish I had saved that post.

[Slyfeind]

That whole experience convinced me that developers and QA need to work closer together and that while it does slow things down at first, the long term benefits are astounding once you get rolling.

I've been at companies where QA is in a little room way in the back, and others where QA is sitting in the same cubicle pit as the devs. Not suprisingly, the latter case tends to have higher productivity than the former. How much...I'd estimate at least times a hundred bazillion.

Another hump that desperately needs to get over is the weird idea that everything is some kind of secret, including tools used, vocabulary, user-to-developer relations and stuff that needs to be a little more standardized across the industry. Keep your design ideas secret, actual code, artwork, style, etc, but Gods, stop trying to reinvent the wheel because you're going to fail miserably. Post-mortem is always filled with "Look how this game did it, why didn't we try that?" It reminds me of two film companies that started in Alaska, one run by someone who used to work in Hollywood and another who made his own documentaries. The Hollywood guy is still making movies up there. The do-it-yourselfer never finished a single project on his own.

[dusematic]

That said, overall I do agree that forums are at their best when they are used as a means for players to communicate with each other rather than a way to scream for Dev Team attention.

Interesting.  One thing that comes to mind reading this is that the DAOC model of official communication (The Herald) is better than the Blizzard blue-post style.  The Blizzard style leads players to believe that their drama queening on certain official forums will get their favorite change made, where the DAOC model - blog-style - gives no such illusion.

I wonder what DAOC's official forums would be like if it had them.

They welcome the drama queening.  They want their hardcore fans to feel like the company is catering to them.  Of course, they're not, but it's a nice illusion.

[Arthur_Parker]

AC2 is a weird memory for me. I remember my experience extremely fondly, but for many odd reasons.  It was the first and perhaps only game that I ever rushed to the level cap.  It is also the only game where I actively and regularly exploited game mechanics. 

Every kid wants to be superman and break the laws of physics, it's natural.  Maybe not to the extent of ban worthy exploiting, but with a better game like AC1, trying to figure out a good build or grabbing a good item for a reroll was part of the fun, it's a pity everyone seems to concentrate on the negative aspects of FOTM builds and twinking.

[Ratman_tf]

That whole experience convinced me that developers and QA need to work closer together and that while it does slow things down at first, the long term benefits are astounding once you get rolling.

I've been at companies where QA is in a little room way in the back, and others where QA is sitting in the same cubicle pit as the devs. Not suprisingly, the latter case tends to have higher productivity than the former. How much...I'd estimate at least times a hundred bazillion.

Another hump that desperately needs to get over is the weird idea that everything is some kind of secret, including tools used, vocabulary, user-to-developer relations and stuff that needs to be a little more standardized across the industry. Keep your design ideas secret, actual code, artwork, style, etc, but Gods, stop trying to reinvent the wheel because you're going to fail miserably. Post-mortem is always filled with "Look how this game did it, why didn't we try that?" It reminds me of two film companies that started in Alaska, one run by someone who used to work in Hollywood and another who made his own documentaries. The Hollywood guy is still making movies up there. The do-it-yourselfer never finished a single project on his own.

If your competitor has shitty QA, why give them any help? It's mean, but so is any kind of competition. You think Blizzard was going to give Flagship a few pointers when Diablo 3 is cooking on the burner?

The gaming industry in general, but especially Blizzard, are very quiet on the nuts 'n bolts of getting a game out the door. I often wonder what their project managers and designers are thinking over there when something like MxO folds.

[Margalis]

Every single aspect of AC2 was terrible - any sort of analysis or postmortem is pointless.

Lack of QA specs matters, sure, but so does lack of time to test, lack of time to do engineering work, the actual engineering that was done being awful, etc etc.

It's kind of like complaining that a literal shit-sandwhich is served without mustard.

[Slyfeind]

If your competitor has shitty QA, why give them any help?

Well for one reason, sooner or later, you're probably going to end up working for them. Unless they die out, in which case when your project ends you'll have nowhere to go. LOL but at least you didn't tell them SuperSecrets like "put your QA next to the devs!!!" For another reason, more esoterically and which I have no evidence of, but it might be interesting to see, is that it might let the whole industry mature in general so everybody's not saying for years "Holy crap every game is shit these days." After so many years of trial and error, there's a standard way of making movies so even if a movie has a crappy story and crappy acting, it still has a passable production value.

[UnSub]

The gaming industry in general, but especially Blizzard, are very quiet on the nuts 'n bolts of getting a game out the door. I often wonder what their project managers and designers are thinking over there when something like MxO folds.

These kind of post-mortems / design analyses are out there, but are usually not read by people who just play games.

I can't find an alleged TF2 write-up by the devs that is meant to have a fantastic "this title only became fun in the last 3 months prior to release"-style insight, but there was a good one on how Far Cry 2 ended up a long way from what was originally intended due to the impact of randomised gameplay elements like malaria and weapon jamming.

[Khaldun]

Lots of games get postmortems at Gamasutra and elsewhere, but not so much MMOs, about which people tend to be tight-lipped with a few notable exceptions.

[chargerrich]

I find it interesting that the Eric did not bring up the whole "forced grouping" aspect of AC2. Eric and many of the developers at Turbine were so hellbent on making AC2 (and later DnD... I believe, never played it) a group only game that it really hurt the longevity of the game. While one cannot blame this very myopic vision for the game as the sole reason AC2 failed, it certainly contributed.

I would love to hear from Eric on this and see if he is still so jaded against solo play (I suspect not since its all but proven that forced group can only limit your target audience).

[UnsGub]

The gaming industry in general, but especially Blizzard, are very quiet on the nuts 'n bolts of getting a game out the door. I often wonder what their project managers and designers are thinking over there when something like MxO folds.

I heard a Blizzard Test\QA Manager talk at GDC, at a roundtable, about testing.  It was standard software development testing stuff just not standard game development stuff.

They have career testers there rather than a building filled with +400 at minimum wage for one example of something they do that many game places do not.

[Ratman_tf]

The gaming industry in general, but especially Blizzard, are very quiet on the nuts 'n bolts of getting a game out the door. I often wonder what their project managers and designers are thinking over there when something like MxO folds.

I heard a Blizzard Test\QA Manager talk at GDC, at a roundtable, about testing.  It was standard software development testing stuff just not standard game development stuff.

They have career testers there rather than a building filled with +400 at minimum wage for one example of something they do that many game places do not.

Lord bless them.

[Murgos]

Learning to Balance the Human Equation

I found that the Feral Intendant class was 30% overpowered, and that’s why so many people were playing a Feral Intendant. Yet somehow, reducing the power of the Feral Intendant to the correct level did not suddenly make the game more fun… thousands of players were complaining and nobody was telling me they were happy about the change. Weird! I double checked my calculations. They were correct. So what had gone wrong?

Turns out that the people who played the other classes available to that race had taken on an “underdog” mentality. The people who played Claw Bearers liked that they were woefully underpowered compared to Feral Intendants. It was like playing the game on Hard Mode. And the people playing Feral Intendants liked playing on Easy Mode. In balancing the game I had failed to understand the needs of the people playing it. I just ham-handedly fixed the equations, instead of solving the problem with the finesse it needed. It was one of my more serious missteps. (And it’s a great example because I think it’s pretty obvious in hindsight. Most mistakes were much more subtle.)

Brilliant.  I wish other MMO's would learn that.

[Cheddar]

I actually enjoyed AC2 near the end.  It was extremely different and creative.

I wish they would bring it back. 

[Nija]

Brilliant.  I wish other MMO's would learn that.

He's really on the money there. My "main" was actually a Claw Bearer. I liked the fact that I could kill people as a CB. I only knew of 2 other CBs on Darktide above level 40 when I quit. That character's name was Harakiri.

I started a Human, Magic/Defender for my twink character. I didn't twink him with items - I twinked him with game knowledge. I still have screenshots of me killing a level 42 FI and a level 29 FI at the same time. When I was level 29. That character, named Sgt Pepper, never got above level 44 but could fight any max level character in the game.

[Hutch]

I actually enjoyed AC2 near the end.  It was extremely different and creative.

I wish they would bring it back. 

I wish AC3 was plausible. They've still got a great IP there, IMO.

[Rake]

If they were ever going to do an AC3, they'd probably have to choose a different title.

AC2 is remembered more for being a failure, than as a flawed game that had some really great ideas and fucktons of fun.

I wonder if Turbine would ever want to take the risk.

[Hutch]

If they were ever going to do an AC3, they'd probably have to choose a different title.

AC2 is remembered more for being a failure, than as a flawed game that had some really great ideas and fucktons of fun.

I wonder if Turbine would ever want to take the risk.

This is why I think AC3 isn't plausible.

Plus, the fact that AC1 at it's peak, didn't have such great subsciber numbers.


AC3, in order to break out of the basement, would have to be called something else, like you said. Asheron's Return, Rise of the Virindi, something other than Asheron's Call 3.

They'd also have to figure out how to please the old vets, and at the same time bring in numbers that won't get them laughed out of the CFO's office. Hopefully without adding elves and dwarves.

And most importantly, they'd have to put at least as much care into building the game as they did with LotRO. Which at least we know someone at Turbine knows how to do now.


I think the negatives are too many. They'd have to be prepared to only attain the kind of subscriber numbers they got for LotRO at the high end, and AC1 at the low end. Do they want to make another game with that outlook?

[Stormwaltz]

I posted some musings about "AC3" back in January.

EDIT: Before it's mentioned, yes, when I wrote that, I blanked on the fact that UO was skill based...

[Lantyssa]

Some good ones there.  The Giant Monster scaling being one I wish a game would pick up and put to good use.  It would be great for a more explorer-based game.

[Khaldun]

The catering to explorers in AC1 hasn't been seen since in a MMO, which is really frustrating to me. Perhaps the most fun I've ever had in an MMO was taking off by myself from Danby's Outpost as a medium-level character and trying to make my way to Teth on foot.

[ahoythematey]

The catering to explorers in AC1 hasn't been seen since in a MMO, which is really frustrating to me. Perhaps the most fun I've ever had in an MMO was taking off by myself from Danby's Outpost as a medium-level character and trying to make my way to Teth on foot.

I know for a fact that that route provided some of the tensest moments I've ever had in a game.  "Can I kite this son of a bitch lugian?"  "Oh fuck a grievver RUN."  "Do I have enough blunt arrows to tear this golem a new asshole?"  "Oh god shadow ambush FUCKING RADAR NOT WORKING GAHHHHHHHHHH."

I would be there day one for an Asheron's Call 3, even if the launch was worse than AC2, just to show that I still have love for the ambitions of the franchise.

[Bstaz]

I loved AC1 and still think fondly on it.  I played on Darktide it was my first MMO.  The world was so big and there were enough outposts that you could "get by" without going into the more popular areas.  It really felt like you were scraping by and getting somewhere.  Our little "guild" of a handful of people join up with the Anti-PKs at the Plat.  I forget the full name but we bound to a portal way out in the middle of nowhere and it was our own private home that we defended from anyone trying to use the area. There was nothing out there so very few people were interested but it was enough that we could level, make money and explore.  Somewhere I have the old "I'm a PK song"   that was a classic.   "I'm a PK and I'm gonna own ya!"  The Arwic cow line is great.

AC1 also made you feel like you were a hero many fights it would be you on 10+ mobs and you'd win something about the game really just made you feel way above just a "person". Drudges, lol.  My wife actually Demo'd AC2 in one of the first Demos with Intel when she was working there trying to highlight Intel processors at an Intel Developer conference.  At that time games were just starting to get interest and she got a lot of smirks in the office about why she wasn't showing something professional like Oracle Server or SAP.

AC1 fun game.  AC2, not so fun.  I remember a big thing was the builds textures would change as the world progressed.  And that music system.  I think most people just sat around and tried to Jam to music.

[Count Nerfedalot]

I posted some musings about "AC3" back in January.

EDIT: Before it's mentioned, yes, when I wrote that, I blanked on the fact that UO was skill based...

You also overlooked early SWG in claiming there's never been a crafted equipment economy.

I did love AC1 as an explorer.  Although that love was severely challenged when the Dires were redone and the mob density was increased to the point where it was no longer possible to make your way across by carefully slipping through the cracks between the mobs.  The effective world area shrank drastically at that point, and became far less fun.

The one thing no player-decision based character development system (be it classes with skill trees or raw skill points or whatever) should ever ship without is a reasonable repec ability.  Screw realism issues and stop worrying about FOTMs.  Concerns about realism are invalidated by the fact that the basic laws of the universe are altered with every nerf/balance/patch/expansion.  How realistic is that?  Allow players to keep their character and their progress while still adapting and redesigning it as they learn the game and as the game changes on them.  That would dramatically reduce the pain of balancing as well as eliminate the frustration of a "ruined" character due to poor/uninformed choices made early in life.  Player decisions that matter?  Pish!  The only player decision that matters, in the end, is am I having fun and do I want to keep my subscription alive another month?  Every time I'm punished for not doing enough web research before playing the game is another reason for me to choose NOT to keep my subscription going!

[Sophismata]

It's funny, I remember AC2. I still have the box in my room.

I remember that Microsoft didn't want my money because I lived in Australia, and I never got the chance to subscribe until after my month had ended and I'd been forced to play other games.

[Rake]

I had no problem subscribing from Japan with AC2, but Horizon's wouldn't let me. Almost makes you think there could be a God somewhere 

[Numtini]

I had no problem subscribing from Japan with AC2, but Horizon's wouldn't let me. Almost makes you think there could be a God somewhere 

Horizons was using a subscription service mainly intended for porn sites. The service probably had more filters than average to stop fraud.

[Rake]

What worries me most, is that I really wanted to sub to Horizons.

How can I trust my own instincts anymore? Was crafting things in a virtual world that much fun for me?

Anyway, it turned out to be a good thing, and I suppose I should be glad that porn is just as hard to subscribe to too 

[Soukyan]

Since I am the only fanboy for it, I figured I should weigh in.

I miss AC2.

There, I said it. Carry on.

[tar]

Nah, not quite the only one. I had some fun in AC2 also.

[Lietgardis]

Lots of games get postmortems at Gamasutra and elsewhere, but not so much MMOs, about which people tend to be tight-lipped with a few notable exceptions.

Usually, the game's still operating and your former coworkers are still working on it.  If you write a postmortem talking about how badly Feature A turned out, players will go to the boards and raise hell and your old friends will have to clean it up.  And then you're a dick.

[OcellotJenkins]

Oh man, I have some great memories of AC2 as well despite the game's numerous problems.  Granted it was my first MMO so that was part of it, but I think some posters above nailed the appeal.  Learning how the broken, undocumented game worked was fun.  Figuring out new ways to exploit monsters to minimize leveling time was a blast in that game even if there was nothing to do at the level cap.  Also, some of the classes in the game were really unique and I still think about them often when playing games like WoW.

I've not seen a class like the Tactician implemented in a game since and I really miss it.  This was the engineering type class that could build walls to keep monsters away while they killed them with ranged wrenches.  A group could find a dense spawn point out in the wilderness and set up a little fort, pulling, killing, and looting for hours.  There were other interesting classes too that I miss.

One fond exploit memory that I have was the one where you could roll a new character and join a group with a high level character to gain xp.  The high level character could run easy quests over and over while the lowbie was parked afk somewhere, resulting in like 30 levels in a few hours.  My guild mates and I did this often just to have other characters to experiment with weird specs.

I do sort of miss AC2 and would definitely love to see another game developed with that IP.

Edit:  Turrets.  I said ranged wrench attacks when I meant to say Turrets (although they threw wrenches too).

[LC]

I'll share one of the few fun moments I had in AC2.

Link

Of course it was ruined by the fact that those dead guys could keep coming back over and over with no significant penalty.