Star Wars Episodes 1, 2, & 3

[Cyrrex]

1 had some great parts to it (and how none of you mention Darth Maul is beyond me), and a lot of terrible parts.

2...you had to dig a little deeper for the good stuff.  It was sort of a necessary filler movie that could certainly have been made better.  If ever there was proof that George needed someone else doing his directing and screenplay, this was it.  

3 had parts in it that were horribly acted and directed, but overall I thought it was a pretty good movie.  Some parts were really quite good.

What sinks the series as a whole for most people is, as most have stated already, nostalgia leading to unreasonable expectations.  And George Lucas not knowing when to step back and let more talented people execute his vision.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I didn't watch the original trilogy until I was at least 15-16 and even then I thought they were ok movies and a bit dated looking, not fantastic.

That said, EP1-3 were steaming piles of shit.  One thing above all else though, beyond acting or racist aliens or whatever lore bashing took place....was lucas' hardon for greenscreen and CGI.

"oh look, this is cutting edge tech, let's use it for everything!" the movies just looked plastic and fake and so did nearly all the creatures as well.  People need to realize that sometimes still having people in costumes and the occasional muppet looks better than doing everything on your pc.(ironman is a good example of blending)

[K9]

Thanks for clearing that up. Didn't want to derail the thread, but its something Schild got agitated more than once about, and I didn't get where it comes from.

In all fairness the english language is replete with words that are essentially synonyms, but can be taken to mean slightly different things depending on context; or words that can be used interchangably despite having slightly different meanings. I can't think of many off the top of my head, 'dinner' and 'supper' might come close as another example.

[HaemishM]

And the third film is actually a pretty good film.

So when watching it I was wondering about all those die hard Star Wars fans who really hated these movies and wondering why. As someone who only watched the originla ones once or twice (likely under duress) when I was younger I can't really see what makes 1-3 bad and 4-6 good. They all have silly characters, bad acting, and unbelievable plots and they all have moments where they're fun and entertaining too.

You're dead to me.

[K9]

lamaros' taste in films is a bit unpredictable based on what I have read.

[HaemishM]

"oh look, this is cutting edge tech, let's use it for everything!" the movies just looked plastic and fake and so did nearly all the creatures as well.  People need to realize that sometimes still having people in costumes and the occasional muppet looks better than doing everything on your pc.(ironman is a good example of blending)

This. This times fifty.

Ok, so 4-6 were space opera pulp, essentially war movies mixed with dimestore philosophy. Luke was a whiny twat, and there were Ewoks. But the effects had a solidity, a weight to them that no one else matched. They were for lack of a better term, immersive. Eps 1 and 2 were AWFUL, SHITTASTIC examples of the worst use of CGI, not because they were particularly terrible (though some scenes were so badly shot and lit they WERE that bad). There was just no excuse for a special effects director like Lucas with the massive budget he had to have scenes that looked on the level of a Sci-Fi original movie. As a technical exercise, 2 and 3 were abject failures of overreach and under execution and a guy with the history that Lucas has should have NO FUCKING EXCUSES for some of those scenes. And unfortunately, he's infected the Indiana Jones trilogy with the same plastic-looking bullshit in Crystal Skull.

Empire stands out as the only thing close to a FILM in the whole series. It has an artistry to the direction, a completeness and a vibe that none of the other movies matched. It even ends on a cliffhanger, yet it feels complete. It's a closed circle. Meanwhile, even after watching all 3 goddamn original movies, none of them feels complete either on their own or as part of a larger narrative. Watching Ep 3 by itself is impossible because it doesn't even tell its particular part of the story well enough to give you all you need to enjoy it. It's just BAD. Anakin's transformation to evil makes no sense because it hasn't been set up at all - he just comes off as a whiny twat. His movement from hero in Ep1 to ultimate bad guy in Ep 3 feels like it has about as much basis as Luke's whining about having to wait a year to go to the Academy in Ep 4.

I could write all day on just how fucking bad 1-3 were, by themselves and in comparison to 4-6 and none of the criticisms would need to have anything to do with nostalgia. That's because 1-3 aren't shitty movies because of rose-colored nostalgia glasses, they are JUST SHITTY MOVIES.

[Tebonas]

In all fairness the english language is replete with words that are essentially synonyms, but can be taken to mean slightly different things depending on context; or words that can be used interchangably despite having slightly different meanings. I can't think of many off the top of my head, 'dinner' and 'supper' might come close as another example.

True, but the more commonplace words you learn when you learn the language. Jargon is usually not known by teachers, but by the professional group using the Jargon. Maybe a German film buff could have told me, but I went straight for the source instead. 

[Ironwood]

1 had some great parts to it (and how none of you mention Darth Maul is beyond me), and a lot of terrible parts.

Reading.  Not just a place in England.

 

[WindupAtheist]

I can at least respect an opinion like Schild's for being consistent. If you tell me you think they were all pretty much childish and shitty from 1977 onwards, then I know you're not inventing distinctions between them that don't exist. On the other hand I don't pretend they're universally of precisely the same quality, so if someone downrates a particular movie in relation to the others because of ewoks or Jar Jar or lolsand then fair enough. Personally I rate them thusly, based on nothing but how much enjoyment I derive from them:

1) Sith
2) Empire
3) Jedi
4) New Hope
5) Phantom Menace
6) Clones

Hey look, the bottom two slots are occupied by prequels. Thing is, I don't view the differences between 3 through 6 as being particularly huge. I love Sith and Empire, the other four are all various shades of a good fun time. But pretending the old three were all masterworks and the new three are all vastly horribly different? Bullshit. When the Rotten Tomatoes guys went out a few years ago and looked up quarter-century old print reviews of the original trilogy, they found the same bunch of negative reviews and "WOODEN ACTING HAHA" criticisms you'd see for the prequels. Hell, the original trilogy actually got slagged worse when they crunched the numbers.

And I have to tell you, I've really had enough of overly-opinionated thirtysomething fanboys and their constant teary-eyed bleating in general. OH NOES MY CHILDHOOD HAS BEEN RAPED. Fuck off, crybaby. Phantom Menace sold almost a billion dollars worth of tickets worldwide, somebody liked it. I'm tired of their screaming about "respect for the source material" everytime some bullshit movie comes out. If some guy in a beret wants to tell me the Transformers movie is bullshit, fine. If some manchild with an action-figure collection wants to tell me the Transformers movie was a desecration of a classic, they can fuck right off.

[HaemishM]

Just what in the holy monkey fuck was there to like about Sith? Seriously, tell me what was so ZOMGAWESOMECOOL. Because frankly, I'd rather watch 12 hours of Ewoks fucking than 2 hours of Revenge of the Sith.

[WindupAtheist]

Hey look, it's the guy I was thinking of as I typed that last paragraph.

[HaemishM]

So that's an "I won't answer the question then?" Or "My last 2 posts were just trolls because LOLZNERDRAGE?"

[Ingmar]

The first two prequels were bad enough that I didn't see the third. I just didn't want to give the guy anymore money. This isn't the first place I've seen a general sentiment that it was better than Jedi, though, so maybe I'll get around to it eventually.

To me the worst element in the first movie was not Jar-Jar or Anakin's mom or even the weak dialogue, it was Anakin himself and all the stupid DERP DERP DERP I AM FLYING A FIGHTER LOL stuff, combined with the fact that they failed to really set up anything in his character to lead to his face/douche turn in the 2nd movie.

[Brogarn]

While it's Star Trek (I know! verboten in a Star Wars thread! I'm a rebel!) I can't get this song out of my head while reading the comments in this thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyhhFzE5O5U

And Star Wars Episode III sucked and especially for these two reasons:

"NOOOOOOOOoOoOOoOoOooOoOOO!"

 And emo Anakin one day trying to be Mr. Good Guy, the next killing children to possibly maybe kinda sorta he's not real sure save his own. That leap from good guy to murderer of children overnight is some of the shittiest writing in the history of cinema. Seriously. I was insulted.

[AutomaticZen]

I generally just fast forward through the talking and whining in the prequels until I get to the lightsaber duels.  That's where the good shit is at.

Otherwise, the prequels didn't offend me much and Empire is still the best of them.  

[WindupAtheist]

So that's an "I won't answer the question then?" Or "My last 2 posts were just trolls because LOLZNERDRAGE?"

It's more "Why would I possibly care to have any sort of debate or exchange of ideas with a walking caricature of 'NOTHING IS AS GOOD AS IT WAS WHEN I WAS SIX! NO IT'S NOT ME!!!' fanboy rage?" Sit around all you want, howling at the moon about a three-second shot of some groundhogs in Indy 4, or whatever the latest inconceivable travesty is.

[Lakov_Sanite]

WUA is why you never go full retard.

[WindupAtheist]

Epic burn. Really.

[Lakov_Sanite]

You're trying to defend revenge of the sith, anything wittier would be a waste.

[HaemishM]

So that's an "I won't answer the question then?" Or "My last 2 posts were just trolls because LOLZNERDRAGE?"

It's more "Why would I possibly care to have any sort of debate or exchange of ideas with a walking caricature of 'NOTHING IS AS GOOD AS IT WAS WHEN I WAS SIX! NO IT'S NOT ME!!!' fanboy rage?" Sit around all you want, howling at the moon about a three-second shot of some groundhogs in Indy 4, or whatever the latest inconceivable travesty is.

'
So you really don't want to actually discuss and debate the movies then? Right-o. You'll notice that I did mention in my post above yours that I could debate the shittiness of Sith without ever reverting to nostalgia, purely on the merits or lack thereof for that one movie. The prequels don't suck because they can't hold a candle to the first 3 movies, they suck because they are poorly written, poorly acted, poorly directed and poorly conceived on their own.

But you don't actually want to discuss the merits of the movies, you want to troll with LOLZNERDRAGESTARWARSSHEETS!

[WindupAtheist]

I just don't find your whole "I AM OUTRAGED OVER POP CULTURE! INSERT CLUMSILY-CONSTRUCTED COMPOUND OBSCENITY HERE!" schtick particularly amusing or worth engaging. Sorry. I don't really care whether you think the Star Wars prequels were awesome or total bullshit, but pretending the originals were something vastly different is just plain Not Correct.

No, I don't want to have some giant boring nerd debate over it. That shit is more tired than Trammel threads. Adios.

[DraconianOne]

Sorry. I don't really care whether you think the Star Wars prequels were awesome or total bullshit, but pretending the originals were something vastly different is just plain Not Correct.

Bollocks.

[Arthur_Parker]

The original Star Wars was different, right from the opening sequence, I felt the later efforts mostly failed at recapturing some of that magic.  1977 was a pretty good year overall, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, Cross of Iron, Demon Seed, The Duellists & Slap Shot.

[Velorath]

What sinks the series as a whole for most people is, as most have stated already, nostalgia leading to unreasonable expectations.  

Bullshit.  What sinks the prequels are some of the worst CG special effects ever done, Jar Jar, the Trade Federation aliens' Chinese accents, horrible pacing, and all around worse acting and dialogue than the originals.  I don't think the originals are amazing classics (in fact I could go the rest of my life without ever watching them again), but as a whole, the prequels are worse on every level.

[HaemishM]

No, I don't want to have some giant boring nerd debate over it. That shit is more tired than Trammel threads. Adios.

There's links all over this page to other threads that could have used instead of being subjecting to a "boring nerd debate" that is "more tired than Trammel threads." Since you knew exactly what kind of thread you'd be entering when you posted, you were being a trolling turd burglar. So fuck right off.

[Rasix]

I haven't watched any of the prequels in a few years (my one viewing of Sith was my only, despite not totally hating it). I haven't even had a slightest desire to.  Velorath touched upon most of the reasons for this.  They're just bad.

[Ironwood]

Guys, can we not do this ?

[Rasix]

Guys, can we not do this ?

Maybe Margalis can post about how much he hates the LOTRO triology or someone could post a negative BIIF of Portal.  That would distract people.

[IainC]

Wasn't there an MMO based on Star Wars a few years ago? Does anyone here know how that went?

[Trippy]

My favorite scene in the whole movie is in the cantina where Ford says that the Falcon can "make the Kessel run in 12 parsecs" and Guinness smirks at him because he actually fucked up the line.  He was supposed to say something besides "parsecs" but it stuck throughout the series.  

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kessel_Run

[WindupAtheist]

There's links all over this page to other threads that could have used instead of being subjecting to a "boring nerd debate" that is "more tired than Trammel threads."

wat

[Merusk]

My favorite scene in the whole movie is in the cantina where Ford says that the Falcon can "make the Kessel run in 12 parsecs" and Guinness smirks at him because he actually fucked up the line.  He was supposed to say something besides "parsecs" but it stuck throughout the series.  

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kessel_Run

Yeah, it's all retconning 15-20 years later. I'm more inclined to believe Lucas used "parsecs" without knowing wtf it was, only that it sounded 'spacy.'

Yes, guys, 4-6 are on the same quality as 1-3 and target the same audience.  The biggest saving grace of the originals was that Lucas didn't have enough money to do way too much shit, as shown by the results of his fiddling in '97.  His original "it's the story not the effects" mantra obviously was just the sour grapes rationalization of a guy who DIDN'T have money, given his work after he had a shitload of it.   

As for the "but my dad/ uncle/ grandpa like the originals" arguments.  Yeah, same for the prequels.. some 3 year old's dad/ uncle/ grandpa enjoyed them as well.. so in 20 years when YOUR kids are bitching about Lucas Jr. raping their childhood with the film adaptation of that Dark Horse Comic series with the stripper Twilek this whole debate can happen again. Glee.

[Selby]

The first two prequels were bad enough that I didn't see the third. I just didn't want to give the guy anymore money.

My stance as well.  I saw the first prequel in the theatre, and while I didn't outright hate it, I sure had some issues with questionable script, over the top obvious special effects and just wasn't impressed.  I saw the 2nd one a few months after it came out... and I just wanted to smack the hell out of the 2 lead actors for being so whiny and crazy.  I almost turned it off right in the middle of it, that was how annoyed I was.  I refused to see the 3rd one because of the first 2.  I figure Lucas had his chance to win me over and hadn't done so.  And this is from someone who wasn't around for the first trilogy and was only relatively amused by them.

[K9]

None of them are great films, but I find the old ones more humorous than the new ones. I agree with the sentiments about too much CGI actually detracting from the newer movies.

[Trippy]

My favorite scene in the whole movie is in the cantina where Ford says that the Falcon can "make the Kessel run in 12 parsecs" and Guinness smirks at him because he actually fucked up the line.  He was supposed to say something besides "parsecs" but it stuck throughout the series.  

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kessel_Run

Yeah, it's all retconning 15-20 years later. I'm more inclined to believe Lucas used "parsecs" without knowing wtf it was, only that it sounded 'spacy.'

Yes that stuff was likely a retconn. However what I was really responding to was ghost's incorrect statement that Harrison Ford made a mistake in his line. The novelization does use different wording but in the script it was always "12 parsecs". Guinness' reaction is cause he knew Han was bullshitting, as was written in the script.