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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Topic: World of Tanks 0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: World of Tanks  (Read 1092204 times)
jakonovski
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Reply #1015 on: May 12, 2011, 08:13:36 AM

Putting words in your mouth? I was under the impression that's what stacking means, putting multiples of something in a stack. Like for example in the handy vertical list of tanks arranged per type you have on the sides of your screen when you play WoT.
Engels
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inflicts shingles.


Reply #1016 on: May 12, 2011, 08:22:24 AM

That also makes no sense. Why is it not working as intended? Did they typo the German armor values and then their only keyboard broke? Or are they hell bent on creating some byzantine system instead of just giving the Germans an armor thickness coefficient?

Its not a byzantine system, its a cohesive modeling system that takes into account weight, mass, thickness, slope and the angle of a projectile's hit. When you start to mess about with one factor, it affects all the rest. If you were to increase the values for the german armor thickness to reflect the actual penetrative value as compared to the russian tank value, you'd end up with a way heavier tank.

You may think its just a matter of jimmying the numbers, but I don't think that's how their code is designed to work, or at least that's what the devs posts I've read lead me to think.

In any event, you seem to be doing altogether too much bitching, even by f13 standards, to be actually playing this game any more.

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something. -Signe

I LIKE being bounced around by Tonkors. - Lantyssa

Babies shooting themselves in the head is the state bird of West Virginia. - schild
Bandit
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Reply #1017 on: May 12, 2011, 08:32:58 AM

It's so OP that if there's even one in a match that side almost always wins regardless of what the other 29 tanks do? I doubt that, though I don't doubt it's OP.

Pretty much, I regularly take out 5-6 tanks with this tank before I die if I run alone, this might not win the game but it will win 75% of them. If I run in a platoon of them we nearly can't lose, I might not get as many kills every game but the platoon will share 9+ kills a game. It's this tank btw.

I can completely confirm this, like I said previously you can basically will your team to win with this tank.  I have a 75% (74 matches, 56 wins) win rate with this tank and I never platoon.

For the other discussion about favouritism towards Soviet tanks - on average yes, Soviet tanks are better.  However, I am not so sure its a conspiracy from a soviet company (Belarus) as apparently many Russian players are not happy about it either.  They don't want to play soviet tanks exclusively, just like NA players don't play American tanks exclusively.  It doesn't help when the newest patch appears to buff soviets while nerfing German tanks.  I hope it works it self-out in time as I do tire of seeing an overabundance of Soviet machines.  I don't need to see complete balancing as I like to see some "standouts".
Amarr HM
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Reply #1018 on: May 12, 2011, 08:43:20 AM

Putting words in your mouth? I was under the impression that's what stacking means, putting multiples of something in a stack. Like for example in the handy vertical list of tanks arranged per type you have on the sides of your screen when you play WoT.

I'm sorry but is English a second language to you? Cause at least then I can understand your lack of comprehension.

I'm going to escape, come back, wipe this place off the face of the Earth, obliterate it and you with it.
jakonovski
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Reply #1019 on: May 12, 2011, 08:48:51 AM

I actually do play still, I'm just so very disappointed after the heaven that was tiers 1-3.  

It could well be that they only have one thickness value that they reference for both penetration and mass, making the coefficient solution harder to implement. However, that kind of rules out the idea that they were prepared to add armor quality to the calculations.  
jakonovski
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Reply #1020 on: May 12, 2011, 08:49:45 AM

Putting words in your mouth? I was under the impression that's what stacking means, putting multiples of something in a stack. Like for example in the handy vertical list of tanks arranged per type you have on the sides of your screen when you play WoT.

I'm sorry but is English a second language to you? Cause at least then I can understand your lack of comprehension.

It is in fact. You could avoid a lot of trouble if you just explained the difference.
Amarr HM
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Reply #1021 on: May 12, 2011, 09:01:56 AM

No problem, I figured there must be a communication breakdown of some sort.

stack
1
a : to arrange in a stack : pile

Stacking doesn't imply things of same type, it's just piling objects on top of each other. In video game terms though it does refer to weighting one team heavier than the other by class or player skill, stacking the odds against another team. I'm not talking about stacking here.

I'm going to escape, come back, wipe this place off the face of the Earth, obliterate it and you with it.
Pendan
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Reply #1022 on: May 12, 2011, 09:03:34 AM

I want to also confirm with a good tank you really can influence the win/loss ratio. I have a M2 Light Tank at 70% win ratio. I started with only 50% crew training and still under 75%. In my 16th game I killed 8 tanks which made 13 wins and 3 loss or 81%. I am sure with a 100% crew I could influence the battles quite a bit more. Is funny how in teir 2 a german tank, PzKpfw 38H735 (f), is the best and I would say American has 2nd and possibly 3rd best.

I would say is a little too much crying about Russian tanks being better however one way to balance that would be historically accurate is to give German crews a small percentage training increase. So they would start at something like 57% and reach 102%.

For tank balance they have stated they look at individual tank performance stats like damage done versus damage taken more than win/loss ratio. If you read the Developers Break Down Game Mechanics section you can see they keep a lot of stats not displayed to players by reading the Team-kill autosystem and The truth about Anti-bot system posts.
jakonovski
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Reply #1023 on: May 12, 2011, 09:09:31 AM

No problem, I figured there must be a communication breakdown of some sort.

stack
1
a : to arrange in a stack : pile

Stacking doesn't imply things of same type, it's just piling objects on top of each other. In video game terms though it does refer to weighting one team heavier than the other by class or player skill, stacking the odds against another team. I'm not talking about stacking here.

Well there we go, thanks. I certainly didn't mean it like that, apologies for the confusion.
jakonovski
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Reply #1024 on: May 12, 2011, 09:12:18 AM

For tank balance they have stated they look at individual tank performance stats like damage done versus damage taken more than win/loss ratio. If you read the Developers Break Down Game Mechanics section you can see they keep a lot of stats not displayed to players by reading the Team-kill autosystem and The truth about Anti-bot system posts.

That's nice, the only thing I'd heard about was the win ratio thing. 
Engels
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Reply #1025 on: May 12, 2011, 09:24:18 AM

Its also complicated by the human factor. People playing a KT are going to play an entirely different game than when in an IS3. The combat 'options' (I'm unable to think of a better term atm) for both tanks are radically different. The IS3 is an agile brawling tank that can come to the rescue and take out the mediums in a bar fight at the cap. The KT is a ponderous guardian, capable of making pin point accurate shots half way across the map. Yes, the IS3 can bounce more stuff than the KT, but the KT shouldn't be be in the bar fight to begin with. If you're driving your KT into medium brawls at the Windmill at Campinovka, you're doing it wrong.

So in light of that, it makes some sense that Russian heavies have a sloped armor advantage, as they are gonna get smacked about a bit more than your average German heavy.

Furthermore, players adapt to the shortcomings or strengths of the tank they are driving. I will always take a few cautious Pershing drivers over the average T-54 drivers. The stats play out so that the T-54 looks balanced, simply because the drivers get cocky and make more mistakes than a player trembling in his Panther II. It doesn't mean that the T-54 doesn't need to be nerfed a bit, it does, but it does obfuscate the realties of game play at the dev level, who are looking at spreadsheets.

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something. -Signe

I LIKE being bounced around by Tonkors. - Lantyssa

Babies shooting themselves in the head is the state bird of West Virginia. - schild
Amarr HM
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Reply #1026 on: May 12, 2011, 09:49:35 AM

Well there we go, thanks. I certainly didn't mean it like that, apologies for the confusion.

Apologies for my impatience.

I'm going to escape, come back, wipe this place off the face of the Earth, obliterate it and you with it.
Shrike
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Reply #1027 on: May 12, 2011, 09:52:59 AM

The KT is a ponderous guardian, capable of making pin point accurate shots half way across the map. Yes, the IS3 can bounce more stuff than the KT, but the KT shouldn't be be in the bar fight to begin with..


I'm going in inject an historical note where it probably doesn't really belong (this is a game, after all), but since they have a whitewash of realism over all this, well, get used to it. The fact is the PzkwVIb actually had very well shaped armor. Massive well-shaped armor. it also had a helluva gun, the optics to lay it, and shitty engines. That's the main reason the thing wasn't a knifefighter (an issue the Panther II would have fixed, by the way). The IS3 was an abject failure (despite whatever the russians fantisize about it) that performed very poorly and was rebuilt as a unit class at least once we know of in the West (and still didn't perform very well, though by this time it was pretty aged). It did have a very big influence on fundamental tank design, which is the only reason why it's more than a footnote in history.

You can argue why the Tiger I had the armor design it did (generally, hurry up and get it built covers it), but late war german tank designs had very well shaped armor. After all, it was a hard lesson they learned from the russians early on. Hell, even the US figured it out by 1945...
tmp
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Reply #1028 on: May 12, 2011, 10:32:46 AM

Some new patch feedback from russian forums

tl;dr: arties got bit worse, high tier german tanks and TDs got somewhat better.
Bandit
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Reply #1029 on: May 12, 2011, 11:36:55 AM

A hilarious Q&A session on the russian forums - no tact, but I think it's refreshing to be so blunt.  Happy Trails!

Engels
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Reply #1030 on: May 12, 2011, 12:13:04 PM

Brad, is that you?

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something. -Signe

I LIKE being bounced around by Tonkors. - Lantyssa

Babies shooting themselves in the head is the state bird of West Virginia. - schild
FatuousTwat
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Reply #1031 on: May 12, 2011, 03:42:29 PM

The KT is a ponderous guardian, capable of making pin point accurate shots half way across the map. Yes, the IS3 can bounce more stuff than the KT, but the KT shouldn't be be in the bar fight to begin with. If you're driving your KT into medium brawls at the Windmill at Campinovka, you're doing it wrong.

So in light of that, it makes some sense that Russian heavies have a sloped armor advantage, as they are gonna get smacked about a bit more than your average German heavy.

Germans are sniper tanks, Russians are brawlers.

This is a problem.

Sure, if the IS-3 was going straight at a KT across a flat plain 500m across, the KT might win (if the IS-3 didn't bounce 3 or 4 shots). Unfortunately, this never happens. The IS-3 will probably make it to the KT alive, and the KT is fucked at close ranges.

The mechanics of the game favour the Russian tank playstyle, and that is the main problem with the balance in this game, IMO.

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
Engels
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Reply #1032 on: May 12, 2011, 04:56:01 PM

That's because you're trying to equate heavies of the same tier. Its more about different roles. Sure, a T-54 is deadly to a Panther II, but a Panther II hidden in a bush at range is more dangerous to an IS-7 than a scooty T-54 brawling with it.

The one possible exception is the T32, which is currently both an excellent brawler, on par if not superior to the IS-3, and has pretty good range accuracy, unlike the wobbly BL9.

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something. -Signe

I LIKE being bounced around by Tonkors. - Lantyssa

Babies shooting themselves in the head is the state bird of West Virginia. - schild
FatuousTwat
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Reply #1033 on: May 12, 2011, 05:08:20 PM

What I'm saying is, if you are in a sniping tank, and you get rushed, you are most likely fucked, and it's pretty easy at the moment for someone in a Russian tank to get within knife-fighting range due to their superior armour and speed (also, they are changing the tracking mechanics pretty soon to make it harder to track tanks).

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
veredus
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Reply #1034 on: May 12, 2011, 07:41:22 PM

KT is a very underrated tank. When I had a KT, T32 and IS3 in beta, to me the IS3 was by far the worst. If one on one a KT can easily out brawl an IS3, don't underestimate being able to turn on the spot.
Brolan
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Reply #1035 on: May 12, 2011, 08:23:23 PM

Luckily you aren't forced to play a side (like WWIIOL), so when 80% of the players are driving Russian tanks then maybe the devs can buy a clue.
jakonovski
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Reply #1036 on: May 12, 2011, 10:29:07 PM

The sniper versus brawler problem is made worse by the maps, many of which are built as two startup areas connected by multiple tubes. Where there is ample space to shoot in all directions, such as Prokhorovka, balance problems seem to be significantly smaller.
Amarr HM
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Reply #1037 on: May 13, 2011, 03:53:33 AM

KT is a very underrated tank. When I had a KT, T32 and IS3 in beta, to me the IS3 was by far the worst. If one on one a KT can easily out brawl an IS3, don't underestimate being able to turn on the spot.

I agree, the KT front armor is the best of all 3. It can standup to all but the highest pen guns. It's like the guy said people don't know how to use German tanks so they end up fodder.

I'm going to escape, come back, wipe this place off the face of the Earth, obliterate it and you with it.
Pendan
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Reply #1038 on: May 13, 2011, 08:08:05 AM

For tank balance they have stated they look at individual tank performance stats like damage done versus damage taken more than win/loss ratio. If you read the Developers Break Down Game Mechanics section you can see they keep a lot of stats not displayed to players by reading the Team-kill autosystem and The truth about Anti-bot system posts.

That's nice, the only thing I'd heard about was the win ratio thing. 
I was wrong. Overlord posted today "The most important parameters taken into account are win ratio and avg experience per battle". Disappointing when I know they keep other stats for players.
jakonovski
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Reply #1039 on: May 13, 2011, 09:13:30 AM

I've now started to wonder how much armed bushes and tracking affect balance. Right now the two most common causes for death for any player are probably those two.

edit: this post was brought to you by an immobilized T1 being pounded by a formerly visible Hetzer 380 metres away, in the open.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 09:18:35 AM by jakonovski »
Rendakor
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Reply #1040 on: May 13, 2011, 09:35:42 AM

Didn't see it on this page and no desire to go re-read the whole thread, so: is this still in beta, or did it ever release? If it's out, how much is it? F2P + cash shop?

"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
jakonovski
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Reply #1041 on: May 13, 2011, 10:01:30 AM

It's out. F2P, paying gets you 50% more exp and credits for 10 bucks a month. There's other options for spending money too, but it gets prohibitively expensive fast if you go beyond the odd premium tank every now and then.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 10:04:10 AM by jakonovski »
kildorn
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Reply #1042 on: May 13, 2011, 06:01:24 PM

The PzIII is absolutely hilarious in tier-appropriate fights. I have a little one just for laughs, and it takes ages to kill anything, but I'm pulling steel wall every fight. I had to put 9 rounds into an A-32 though <3
snowwy
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Reply #1043 on: May 13, 2011, 07:52:15 PM

As a now T-54 driver, i can not undertstand what all the whining myself and others produced earlie was aboutr.Is it a good tank? Yes. Will it blow up up if shot at? Yes x 1000.
If you have read any of the last 20 pages , you will know i'm not the hottest med-driver in town, but damn. This thing is aa easy to light up as the T-44 ever was.
Still missing the top gun though, maybe that will change everything. And while we are on nerfs...fuck the Object 704 gun-traverse nerf brutally in the ass
It's not longer THE ultimate death-machine, just a normal death-machine, and this will not be good enough! I demand my death-machine back!!....on a seious note, objects are now consideably easier to kill since they removed
all options to tilt the gun sideways for bouncy angles on armor /sadface
FatuousTwat
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Reply #1044 on: May 13, 2011, 09:37:12 PM

Are you saying it gets ammo racked a lot? I've heard that on the T-44 and T-54 the wet ammo rack was pretty much required equipment.

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
snowwy
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Reply #1045 on: May 14, 2011, 06:18:16 AM

Are you saying it gets ammo racked a lot? I've heard that on the T-44 and T-54 the wet ammo rack was pretty much required equipment.
I think it's more the "KILL THAT T_54 SUPERFAST!!"-thing, you know when it feels like everyone is out to get you, except they really are? The turret-ring seems rather weak. Get a stuck turret quite a lot
tmp
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POW! Right in the Kisser!


Reply #1046 on: May 14, 2011, 10:05:44 AM

As a now T-54 driver, i can not undertstand what all the whining myself and others produced earlie was aboutr.Is it a good tank? Yes. Will it blow up up if shot at? Yes x 1000.
If you have read any of the last 20 pages , you will know i'm not the hottest med-driver in town, but damn. This thing is aa easy to light up as the T-44 ever was.
Well, what's your experience with T54's when you happen to play against them, rather than driving one? Do you light them and blow them up as easily as you now believe it to be?
jakonovski
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Reply #1047 on: May 14, 2011, 10:15:27 AM

How long does it take to get to a T-54? I've probably sunk 40+ hours into the game by now and I'm rocking one Tier 5, one Tier 4 and three Tier 3's.

Engels
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Reply #1048 on: May 14, 2011, 10:37:46 AM

A long long time. The reason there was a chance to play them in beta to any significant degree was due to a small period of time where XP gain was multiplied by five or ten, can't remember which. Those people you see with Tier 9 med and Tier 10 heavies are doing little else with their lives. They are also using gold to convert hoarded XP on other tanks (mainly the M6 gold tank) towards advancing past the grind.

Don't worry about it too much tho. Tier 9 and Tier 10 battles are more often than not filled with angsty catasses, and the whole thing can go Un-Fun right quick. I personally am enjoying the M4 Sherman tier 5 tank more than I've enjoyed playing my Panther II in beta.

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something. -Signe

I LIKE being bounced around by Tonkors. - Lantyssa

Babies shooting themselves in the head is the state bird of West Virginia. - schild
jakonovski
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Posts: 4388


Reply #1049 on: May 14, 2011, 10:56:09 AM

Oh, I don't think I'll ever reach top level in any grind game ever again. Vanilla WoW beat that out of me. I was just wondering about it, because I would be willing to pay a bit of money to be able to reach a level where the tanks are all equal.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2011, 10:57:57 AM by jakonovski »
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