World of Tanks

[Merusk]

There's a simple reason why TDs don't oneshot people and it's that none of them can do enough damage in one shot to kill a tank.  Tanks have ~1900 hps TDs do 500-1100 at tier x while Arty can do 1500-2200.   

So instead of fucking with accuracy, reload, movement, visibility, phases of the moon.  One stat could have brought Arty in line to where people weren't such winging pussies about them.  You can ask GW why they didn't take that one step.

[Nebu]

So instead of fucking with accuracy, reload, movement, visibility, phases of the moon.  One stat could have brought Arty in line to where people weren't such winging pussies about them.  You can ask GW why they didn't take that one step.

You're missing the obvious flaws with SPG mechanics.  1) There is too shallow a skill/performance curve and 2) the very nature of the overhead view allows a terrible player, in relative safety, to remove a great player from the map with a click of a button. 

Don't you wonder why the best players in the game hate SPG's?  It's because another player, that would stand no chance against them in a tank, can remove them from the game with the simple click of a mouse button.  That's why the term "clicker" was coined.

[Merusk]

And I care what they say, why?  How is caring what they say any better than caring about whining ubers in raid-centric MMOs?

You've fallen in to the trap.

[Nebu]

And I care what they say, why?  How is caring what they say any better than caring about whining ubers in raid-centric MMOs?

You've fallen in to the trap.

They understand the mechanics of the game better than the average player and as a result, see the flaw more glaringly.  SPG's are like stealth classes in a pvp game.  They are only fun for the people playing them and largely ruin the dynamics of the game for the better player. 

This is also VERY different than an MMO, so your analogy doesn't fit.  I can solo my way to the endgame in WoT without missing one bit of the game.  CW and TC's are a meta I don't have to play to get the best tanks in the game. 

[Merusk]

See, that's the trap. The same argument is used when ubers in MMOs complain about mechanics/ call for nerfs.  So now they're correct and we should listen, eh?

Saying it takes no skill is as big of a misstatement as saying TD sniping from half a map away takes no skill. That's why it's a bullshit argument.  There's skill in knowing where to place, knowing how to time a shot (esp. with travel times) in knowing how to aim the fucking reticle that's 3x the size of a tank. 

Saying it takes no skill is a debate tool to get the ignorant on your side.  It's the 'poor people with cadillacs' argument of game design.

There were too many arty in games, they did too much damage. Those were the flaws.  The rest is trying to turn things in to an arcade-type game with ability to camp in the open with no consequences.

[Sir T]

My heart bleeds for the so called elite of the game. Who don't know enough to randomly zigzag, an arty safety maneuver which ALSO protects your weakspots. Which are irrelevant with gold ammo which is probably why they don't bother, but hey. And they also know fuck all about arty shadows, despite knowing so much about the game.

And even if you are right you are tanking about something that MAYBE ONCE every 200 freaking games actually penetrates and does magna damage. And the rest of the time does fuck all and misses most of the time. Assuming you ignore the chance for every tank in the game to detonate one another with an ammo rack, which somehow isn't game braking at all. I'm sure you would trade your ability to hit for the chance to do an ignoreammorack one shot every 200 games.

And really, no skill in arty. Fuck off.

Seriously, every time I see an "elite PVPer" I see a nappywearing crybaby who always fucks up games when you listen to them.

Now if you don''t mind, I'm off to play my TOG. Which rarely gets hit by arty becasuse I have no skill and dont know what I'm going

[Merusk]

Also; why is it valid IN THIS GAME for the forums to control opinion but not in any other.  This is a noisy group of forum warriors kicking up dirt to get the game the way they want it played.  End of story. 

[Nebu]

Also; why is it valid IN THIS GAME for the forums to control opinion but not in any other.  This is a noisy group of forum warriors kicking up dirt to get the game the way they want it played.  End of story.  

Did you ever entertain the notion that, from a purely gameplay standpoint, they might be right?  We're talking about a group of people that play the game at a higher level than 99% of players can even comprehend.  Perhaps they see something that the rest don't?  Most of the self-proclaimed SPG haters on the forums (aka Garbad) have significant experience playing SPG's.  

WGN likes SPG's because they are good for the business model.  They even the footing between skill levels.  As far as gameplay balance goes they are terrible.  They have the lowest skill/success ratio of any vehicle in game by a large margin.

[angry.bob]

WGN likes SPG's because they are good for the business model.  They even the footing between skill levels.  As far as gameplay balance goes they are terrible.  They have the lowest skill/success ratio of any vehicle in game by a large margin.

Saying this a lot doesn't make it more true. It takes much, much more skill to play mediocre arty than it does to play a good tank or tank destroyer. Just adjusting the trajectory to have a chance to actually  hit something is orders of magnitude more difficult than putting crosshairs over something and firing. I understand why anti-arty people won't admit this since it invalidates the whole "Arty is easy mode for scrubs". A lot like how win rate is a bullshit measurement of player skill. It's not. If it was, at least one, single team sport anywhere on the planet would use it. According to win rate theory, Lebron James is one of the worst basketball players to ever play the game.

If arty is easy mode I would honestly, truly love to see the demo recordings of you leveling up an arty line of your choice to tier 5. As easy as it is, I expect to see at least three kills a game, one of which must be a one shot kill against an equal or higher tier tank. Frankly, until then you're talking out your ass and giving the same bullshit arguments that we've heard since Ultima Online, just substitute "arty" for "corp por" or whatever. I don't doubt that you believe what you're saying, but what you're saying is just plain wrong.

[Nebu]

If arty is easy mode I would honestly, truly love to see the demo recordings of you leveling up an arty line of your choice to tier 5. As easy as it is, I expect to see at least three kills a game, one of which must be a one shot kill against an equal or higher tier tank. Frankly, until then you're talking out your ass and giving the same bullshit arguments that we've heard since Ultima Online, just substitute "arty" for "corp por" or whatever. I don't doubt that you believe what you're saying, but what you're saying is just plain wrong.

What I'm saying is this:  The difference in impact of a great player vs a terrible player on a match is much smaller than if both of those players were on any other vehicle.  That's precisely what I mean when I said that the skill/performance level was the lowest.  

I never said that arty took no skill.  I just said that skill doesn't factor in enough when it comes to SPG performance.  

All you've said is that I'm wrong.  Perhaps you can offer up something more substantial yourself?   There's no shooting at a cupola, or machine gun port.  There's no angling or side-scraping.  No memorization of armor thickneses and weak spots.  Just point-and-click FTW.

Most of the best players in the game despise SPG's.  Why do you think this is the case?

[Tmon]

It may take more skill to play arty but it isn't apparent to most players that this is so.  To them arty just sits in a corner hidden from view and lobs shells at targets that can't hit back.  At least with hidden TDs you have a chance at a lucky blind shot.  What I recall from my brief time playing arty is that the biggest problem I had was with teams that didn't scout and/or didn't do a good job of protecting me from light tanks.  So long as they were moderately decent at those things life was pretty simple.

[Merusk]

Also; why is it valid IN THIS GAME for the forums to control opinion but not in any other.  This is a noisy group of forum warriors kicking up dirt to get the game the way they want it played.  End of story. 

Did you ever entertain the notion that, from a purely gameplay standpoint, they might be right?  We're talking about a group of people that play the game at a higher level than 99% of players can even comprehend.  Perhaps they see something that the rest don't?  Most of the self-proclaimed SPG haters on the forums (aka Garbad) have significant experience playing SPG's. 

WGN likes SPG's because they are good for the business model.  They even the footing between skill levels.  As far as gameplay balance goes they are terrible.  They have the lowest skill/success ratio of any vehicle in game by a large margin.

Same argument, again and again.  "Don't the players who play WoW for thousands of hours see something you don't about why we should nerf class X?"  The problem is there, but the motives are bullshit.  Top players get pissed because they can get wasted doing their playstyle and slow, lumbering alpha-damage beasts.

Heavies are weak to arty, lights are strong because they can get the fuck out of the way.  The top players didn't play lights because we didn't have top-tier lights until recently.

Most of the best players in the game despise SPG's.  Why do you think this is the case?

Because they're hyper-aggressive. Arty forces them to be aware of more than just the tank or two in front of them and forces a more conservative play style instead of Counter Strike: Tank. 

Also, because SPGs just did too much fucking damage for as accurate as they were. WG nerfed accuracy instead of damage. It was the wrong move, but silenced the majority while fixing nothing on the oneshot side.

We've gone over some of the basics of skill but you've chosen to ignore them and buy the "point-click, hurf durf." 

[WayAbvPar]

Don't forget that arties have no armor. They move slower than almost every other tank (frenchies excepted). They have reload times of 40+ seconds. It takes 10 seconds or so (with a 100% crew + skills, GLD, etc) to shrink the reticule to a size where you might have a chance of hitting.

A TD sits in a bush and fires every 8-10 seconds, aims in a second or two, and is so heavily armored that even tier tanks have trouble penetrating them from the front without gold.


Which one is click button easy?

[Ginaz]

My heart bleeds for the so called elite of the game. Who don't know enough to randomly zigzag, an arty safety maneuver which ALSO protects your weakspots. Which are irrelevant with gold ammo which is probably why they don't bother, but hey. And they also know fuck all about arty shadows, despite knowing so much about the game.

And even if you are right you are tanking about something that MAYBE ONCE every 200 freaking games actually penetrates and does magna damage. And the rest of the time does fuck all and misses most of the time. Assuming you ignore the chance for every tank in the game to detonate one another with an ammo rack, which somehow isn't game braking at all. I'm sure you would trade your ability to hit for the chance to do an ignoreammorack one shot every 200 games.

And really, no skill in arty. Fuck off.

Seriously, every time I see an "elite PVPer" I see a nappywearing crybaby who always fucks up games when you listen to them.

Now if you don''t mind, I'm off to play my TOG. Which rarely gets hit by arty becasuse I have no skill and dont know what I'm going

Let me ask you this.  How credible would it be for me, who doesn't have the experience or isn't nearly as good with Magic like card games, to start telling Schild his strategies and card choices are all wrong when playing Magic?

[Ginaz]

Also; why is it valid IN THIS GAME for the forums to control opinion but not in any other.  This is a noisy group of forum warriors kicking up dirt to get the game the way they want it played.  End of story. 

Did you ever entertain the notion that, from a purely gameplay standpoint, they might be right?  We're talking about a group of people that play the game at a higher level than 99% of players can even comprehend.  Perhaps they see something that the rest don't?  Most of the self-proclaimed SPG haters on the forums (aka Garbad) have significant experience playing SPG's. 

WGN likes SPG's because they are good for the business model.  They even the footing between skill levels.  As far as gameplay balance goes they are terrible.  They have the lowest skill/success ratio of any vehicle in game by a large margin.

Same argument, again and again.  "Don't the players who play WoW for thousands of hours see something you don't about why we should nerf class X?"  The problem is there, but the motives are bullshit.  Top players get pissed because they can get wasted doing their playstyle and slow, lumbering alpha-damage beasts.

Heavies are weak to arty, lights are strong because they can get the fuck out of the way.  The top players didn't play lights because we didn't have top-tier lights until recently.

Most of the best players in the game despise SPG's.  Why do you think this is the case?

Because they're hyper-aggressive. Arty forces them to be aware of more than just the tank or two in front of them and forces a more conservative play style instead of Counter Strike: Tank. 

Also, because SPGs just did too much fucking damage for as accurate as they were. WG nerfed accuracy instead of damage. It was the wrong move, but silenced the majority while fixing nothing on the oneshot side.

We've gone over some of the basics of skill but you've chosen to ignore them and buy the "point-click, hurf durf." 

Unlike rpg MMO's like WoW, there are ways to measure how good you are compared to others.  Just because the hardcore raider in WoW is decked out in top tier gear, it's not an indication of their skill.  With WoT, there are many ways to measure skill and those that are better than the herd can offer some valuable insight, much more so than people who are average or below average performers.

[Nebu]

Let me guess... the next debate is going to be about how win rate is based on luck.  

I'm with Ginaz on this one.  I agree with both of his points.  

[Strazos]

Let me ask you this.  How credible would it be for me, who doesn't have the experience or isn't nearly as good with Magic like card games, to start telling Schild his strategies and card choices are all wrong when playing Magic?

I think it would depend on your actual criticism.

People really overblow arty impact - am I the only person who doesn't get bent out of shape by them? I tend to not sit in the open.

[Nebu]

People really overblow arty impact - am I the only person who doesn't get bent out of shape by them? I tend to not sit in the open.

Did you play many tier 11-12 matches where there were 5 per side?  That's what 99% of the complaining was about.  Any more than 2 per team has a serious impact on the flow of play, particularly on those maps where there is little cover.

How do you push a flank without going in the open?  How do you hold a ridge in maps like Sand River, Malinovka, Redshire?  When matches have 3+ arty a side the game becomes more a game of "Avoid being spotted" than a tactical game of tanks.  This is particularly the case when you have terrible SPG's on your team that don't know what counter-battery means.

Because they're hyper-aggressive. Arty forces them to be aware of more than just the tank or two in front of them and forces a more conservative play style instead of Counter Strike: Tank. 

You're wrong.  The best players in the game come predominantly in two types: the aggressive (minority, i.e. Garbad) and the players of attrition (majority, i.e. Endo, Sela, etc).  Most of the elite players in this game adopt a passive playstyle where they hold defensive positions and only take shots when they have a strong advantage.  They don't push unless following a damage sponge and prefer to not exchange fire unless forced.  Don't believe me?  Watch replays of some of the best players in random matches.  They wait for others to take heat and collect tons of damage while the enemy focuses on other targets. 

[Ginaz]

Let me guess... the next debate is going to be about how win rate is based on luck.  

I'm with Ginaz on this one.  I agree with both of his points.  

Win % is not a good indicator on its own.  It's only when you add it to other stats that it can become relevant.

[Nebu]

Win % is not a good indicator on its own.  It's only when you add it to other stats that it can become relevant.

True.  In the era of the stat padder, this is particularly the case. 

[angry.bob]

There's a simple reason why TDs don't oneshot people and it's that none of them can do enough damage in one shot to kill a tank.  Tanks have ~1900 hps TDs do 500-1100 at tier x while Arty can do 1500-2200.   

I’ve gotten way more one shot kills with tank destroyers than artillery. With artillery you can try to hit a certain area, but if you actually hit it, let alone a desired critical or weak spot it’s all luck. With a tank destroyer I can put that shit right where I want it and have a much better chance of causing a crit. Take an ISU-152 with out with a Boy Lover, stay hidden, and every shot you hit with will be a one shot kill outside of heavies above your tier.

Let me ask you this.  How credible would it be for me, who doesn't have the experience or isn't nearly as good with Magic like card games, to start telling Schild his strategies and card choices are all wrong when playing Magic?

A lot depends on the criticism. In this case it would be the same as you saying blue cards are bullshit, claim they do things they don’t, and every time he played them or mentioned them you screech in his face that they’re bullshit, he’s bullshit, and their bullshit is ruining the game, they need taken out, and should never been in the game the first place. Plus, elite magic players don’t like the way blue cards conflict with their play style and they play magic on an inscrutable level. So fuck you and your blue cards. I say that’s not very credible at all.

Did you play many tier 11-12 matches where there were 5 per side?  That's what 99% of the complaining was about.  Any more than 2 per team has a serious impact on the flow of play, particularly on those maps where there is little cover.

Yeah, those matches turned into 2 arties per side or 5 on one side and none on the other really damn fast due to counter fire, especially at high levels where splash damage alone would kill another arty. That’s the one thing I like about the changes; no one counters anymore. Half the time when I’m spotted the other arty guy doesn’t shoot me, and vice versa. It reminds me of the old Shaman PvP rules in WoW.
 

How do you push a flank without going in the open?  How do you hold a ridge in maps like Sand River, Malinovka, Redshire?  When matches have 3+ arty a side the game becomes more a game of "Avoid being spotted" than a tactical game of tanks.  This is particularly the case when you have terrible SPG's on your team that don't know what counter-battery means.

Well, according to your “elite” players you let the suckers take all the damage and then come out of hiding at the last minute, put a round or two into the fucked up enemy tanks, and collect your “I’m Bitchin l33t!” prize. Not getting spotted is the most basic of tank tactics. Both in real life and in this game. Also, see above, No one counters anymore, even those of us who can. I’d rather eat a loss than kill another artillery player at this point.

You're wrong.  The best players in the game come predominantly in two types: the aggressive (minority, i.e. Garbad)

AKA known as players who probably have actual skill at the game.

and the players of attrition (majority, i.e. Endo, Sela, etc).  Most of the elite players in this game adopt a passive playstyle where they hold defensive positions and only take shots when they have a strong advantage.  They don't push unless following a damage sponge and prefer to not exchange fire unless forced.  Don't believe me?  Watch replays of some of the best players in random matches.  They wait for others to take heat and collect tons of damage while the enemy focuses on other targets. 

In other words, their skill is at being good parasites. Really, I’m absofuckinglutely shocked that “elite” players who fucking sit in hiding until their everyone else is too fucked up to pose a threat don’t like artillery, which is designed to shoot and mess up heavy tanks that sit still in one spot. Really? You really don’t pick up on the bias there?
And here’s the thing that’s happening now, that artillery kept from happening before. Everyone is adapting your “elite” play style. Every map is turning into a 15 minute long  campfest of 2 firing lines waiting for the other side to get bored enough to say fuck it and move.

I never said that arty took no skill. 

Yeah, yeah you did. You’ve said it plenty. You’re still saying it. You’re just couching it in different words and backhanded statements.

There's no shooting at a cupola, or machine gun port.  There's no angling or side-scraping.  No memorization of armor thickneses and weak spots.  Just point-and-click FTW. 

Well, that’s just wrong. You can memorize that stuff, you just can’t take advantage of any of it. But that’s not skill anyway, that’s just memorization, or in the case of “elite” players a fucking skin that looks like a clown car showing all the hitboxes and weak spots. The “just point and click” thing is just plain, flat out bullshit. Anyone doing that is going to hit fuckall nothing. The skill with arty is in adjusting the trajectory to hit the weakest part of the tank available to you. The skill with tanks and TDs is knowing how much to lead, when and where shots will bounce, etc.  Another problem with your “No memorization of blah blah” bullshit is that arty players play tanks too. It’s not like this shit is secret wizard knowledge or something.

[Abagadro]

Just stop. 

[angry.bob]

Never. This exact exchange has happened countless times before with Nebu's position turning out to be bullshit eventually without exception. It's just been so long it's fun doing it again. I did not realize how SirBrucey that was. That I will stop.

[Abagadro]

For me I think it boils down to game experience. Those on the receiving end of arty shells find them annoying and overpowered. Those that throw them a lot know how freaking frustrating it can be to play because of inaccuracy and load/aim time.    I play a lot of both and experience both feelings depending upon which I am in at any given time.  The "nerf" didn't really change all that much if you know what you are doing. I am having generally the same hit ratio in my arty from what I can tell.   The big change really is limiting them so you don't have 5 per game and that has changed the dynamic of the game, but I don't really think it is better or worse, just different. It is more strategic (when it used to be more tactical), so I think that when you have a bunch of noob pubs it just exacerbates it more because their lack of savvy is magnified as not only can't they play their tanks particularly well but they have no ability to think strategically.

[Sir T]

Let me ask you this.  How credible would it be for me, who doesn't have the experience or isn't nearly as good with Magic like card games, to start telling Schild his strategies and card choices are all wrong when playing Magic?

Is Shild saying "Blue cards wreck the game. Ban blue cards because theoretically once in every 200 games they can wreck the shit of an elite player whos strategies and knowledge are too vast for you to comprehend which is why they complain about blue cards with their knowledge and therefore they should be removed so everyone can play red like they want. Oh yeah and green cards are fair despite having thermonuclear warheads"

We're talking about a group of people that play the game at a higher level than 99% of players can even comprehend.

 

That reminds me of the old days at Eve Online where BOB players said that titans were fine because they played the game at a macro level that no-one else could understand due to their skillz. Being really loud at forum Pee Vee Pee means pretty much jack shit other than you can make shit up convincingly.

[Nebu]

Being really loud at forum Pee Vee Pee means pretty much jack shit other than you can make shit up convincingly.

It's quite easy to differentiate between forum white noise and constructive discussion from the better players in the game.  Wotlabs forums are a much better example of the latter.  I encourage you to take a look over there and judge for yourself.  I know that I've learned quite a lot about the game from wotlabs and my play has improved significantly.

Angry.bob: We'll just have to agree to disagree.  I honestly think that we're playing completely different meta games.

[angry.bob]

Angry.bob: We'll just have to agree to disagree.  I honestly think that we're playing completely different meta games.

Probably, since I'm not interested in the metagame at all. I log in play whatever tanks I feel like at that time in random pub matches. The parts of the game and the players you seem to be enamored with, I consider a pointless waste of time. Especially when a player who hides until his team is dead and he has a bunch of beat up targets is considered "elite". Their "valuable input" is so blatantly biased to enable their play style that frankly I'm stunned that you don't see it and disregard it entirely. Come on man, the shit they're peddling isn't unfathomable. It's hucksters selling escharotics as universal cancer cures and telling people to not bother thinking about it.

The only thing worth considering is what effects individual random battles, since that is what I play and what makes up the vast majority of what the player base experiences.  I've seen way too many good games killed off because developers focused on what their "elite" clan and hypercompetitive players felt was good and wound up making the game completely unenjoyable for everyone else. Natural Selection being a pretty good example.

[Sir T]

Star Trek Online's PVP is another example. Cannons are so off the charts in terms of damage that its not even funny, yet you have the loud forum corps screaming if the devs so much as breath about nerfing any tac ability, and Fainting with indignation at the mere suggestion that Klingons might be in any way superior to the federation, despite the fact that in the real game beams dont to half the damage cannons do and Klingons win nearly every single PVP battle. (disclaimer this was before the rommies came in because I havent been back since) The amount of crying because the feds were so superiour, and yet the Klingon won because they were such superiour, skilled gamers who won despite the Devs hating everything Klingon. Klingon's saw the big picture you see.

Result hardly anyone plays Star Trek PVP because its so ridiculously biased in favour of cannons and Klingons, and unless you are in a fleet defiant don't bother showing up if you are a fed. Thankfully the NPC parts of the game are pretty damn solid and enjoyable.

Actually Starcraft was another example. Blizzard listened to the "elite players" and as a result the game became stupidly unbalanced in favour of the Terran because that's all the elite players wanted to play. Zerg were nerfed to uselessness and Protoss were basically targets that needed to research all their important abilities. But the forums were still filled with how terrans were totally useless because the other races had ability X y and Z. Eventually Blizzard decided to just ignore player input at all becasue they realised 90% of it was BS. Their top player bieng caught using hacks in an in house tourney probably didn't help either.

[Nebu]

The parts of the game and the players you seem to be enamored with, I consider a pointless waste of time. Especially when a player who hides until his team is dead and he has a bunch of beat up targets is considered "elite". Their "valuable input" is so blatantly biased to enable their play style that frankly I'm stunned that you don't see it and disregard it entirely. Come on man, the shit they're peddling isn't unfathomable. It's hucksters selling escharotics as universal cancer cures and telling people to not bother thinking about it.

People find their fun in different ways.  This shouldn't surprise you.  What I'm enamored with is how the better players analyze the field like a chess match.  They know the strengths and weaknesses of the pieces on the board, the best ways to exploit terrain and position, and how best to utilize the strengths that their individual vehicle brings to bear.  I fully admit that I find this dissection fascinating and have since the days that I played Third Reich or Panzer Blitz as a board game.  It's the mental game and decision making process under pressure that intrigues me.  This is what makes the game 'fun' in my mind.

My meta game is to look at the board the 30secs during countdown.  I examine the vehicles on the other team, the quality of the players, and the team I've been dealt.  I try to predict where people will go and how to maximize my own position and effectiveness early on.  As the game wears on, I try to anticipate where the fight will be and how to best position to maximize my own firing angles.  I'm a terrible twitch player, so the game becomes very much a calculated game of chess.  The only difference is that my team is often more willing to flip the king over than I am.  There are many metrics to measure my success at this (WR, WN7, K/D ratio, Efficiency, etc.).  It took me over 8000 battles to realize that one person can and does have an effect on the outcome of a 15 vs 15 match.  This fascinates me.  

The regular WoT forum (much like any MMO forum) is full of white noise, but there are gems to be found.  I think I learn the most from the game platooning with good players, watching replays, and reading Wotlabs forums.  

[Nebu]

Actually Starcraft was another example. Blizzard listened to the "elite players" and as a result the game became stupidly unbalanced in favour of the Terran because that's all the elite players wanted to play. Zerg were nerfed to uselessness and Protoss were basically targets that needed to research all their important abilities. But the forums were still filled with how terrans were totally useless because the other races had ability X y and Z. Eventually Blizzard decided to just ignore player input at all becasue they realised 90% of it was BS. Their top player bieng caught using hacks in an in house tourney probably didn't help either.

I think of the elite players as I would ex-athletes commentating on a football game.  They all have a deep knowledge of the game, but they view it from very different perspectives.  Ray Lewis will have a very different view of what is happening than say Troy Aikman.  The difficulty for anyone attempting to balance a game is to find the wisdom in both perspectives, combine it with their inside knowledge of the mechanics, and apply it as it would apply to the paying customer (average player).  This is a monumental task... and likely the reason why it's so tough to make a balanced PvP game with progression.

[Merusk]

Insight is one thing, rule changes are another.  Is the NFL better for listening to the QBs bitch about getting tackled?

You've staked a position and are defending it because you don't want to lose face.  Face has been lost already, regroup and rethink.

[Nebu]

You've staked a position and are defending it because you don't want to lose face.  Face has been lost already, regroup and rethink.

Lost face?  Is this a playground?

I disagree with the three of you about SPG's. It's not the first time we've disagreed about a game and I'm certain it's not the last.   It's my own mistake for entering into the discussion in the first place.  It's not my place to convince someone else what they find fun or not.

[Amarr HM]

People find their fun in different ways.  This shouldn't surprise you.  What I'm enamored with is how the better players analyze the field like a chess match.  They know the strengths and weaknesses of the pieces on the board, the best ways to exploit terrain and position, and how best to utilize the strengths that their individual vehicle brings to bear.  I fully admit that I find this dissection fascinating and have since the days that I played Third Reich or Panzer Blitz as a board game.  It's the mental game and decision making process under pressure that intrigues me.  This is what makes the game 'fun' in my mind.

This is pretty much it, these are the parts of the game that bad players disregard. With experience you realise that decisions you make on the field can decide the outcome of the closer matches. There's been many times I have scrutinised my actions after a defeat and admitted if I had played it differently I could have helped sway the match. I've learned from this and used this information to eke out wins where maybe I shouldn't have.

I remember asking a guy during a close match why he didn't shoot the guy who was shooting him in the ass. He was all like 'f**k you I play fullscreen mode so I can enjoy the awesome graphics'. I guess seeing all the pretty colours was his fun, but as it's a team game and he was part of my team, I felt a little let down that he wasn't using every tool available to him to help us win the match. Which he probably could have. I guess that's why I platoon with people when I get the chance it eliminates the chance of at least 20% of the team being retarded.

[Ginaz]

You've staked a position and are defending it because you don't want to lose face.  Face has been lost already, regroup and rethink.

Lost face?  Is this a playground?

I disagree with the three of you about SPG's. It's not the first time we've disagreed about a game and I'm certain it's not the last.   It's my own mistake for entering into the discussion in the first place.  It's not my place to convince someone else what they find fun or not.

I know I'm having more fun with less arty.  Having invisable TDs killing people is no different than it was before.  If the TD wasn't spotted in a game played before the arty nerf, they were still going to hurt you if they weren't being spotted and lit up.  Nothing has changed in that respect.  I think it's more of a case that arty players rage quit and had to start playing real tanks, which could account for the worse than normal pug players I've come across since the nerf.  

Edit: Removed last few sentences because it sounded a little dickish.

[Tmon]

According to this translated Q&A http://ftr.wot-news.com/2013/09/10/10-9-2013/#more-3008 arty population is lower than Storm likes, and if you dig down through other posts they are mentioning a buff to some arty.  So it looks like in future releases they'll be easing up some on arty.  I'm fine with a little loosening so long as I don't start running into 3+ arty per side matches in the high tiers again.  Oh and if you go to the main FTR page they have a post detailing the new WoT rating system.  Maybe it's a precursor to skill based match making some day in the future.