StarCraft II Beta

[Ironwood]

Sorry, my point was that it seems to me that if you make a strategy decision (Rax, Air, Tech, Whatever) it's much much MUCH harder to change it down the line.  The game is so fast paced, chances are you're FUCKED in 2 minutes.  The wrong type of unit fighting the right type of unit just goes DOWN like so much tissue paper.  Sure, those Thors look bigass and nasty, but wee men with blades CUT THEM THE FUCK UP.

I'm not complaining, as such, since I know that I suck, I'm just saying that the 'entry level' is SO MUCH HIGHER here.  I was a good SC player and a FANTASTIC WC3 player, but I'm getting regularly sodomised.

[Wolf]

Well I'm not sure that's true. The thing is, and you did mention it in your post, Starcraft is super fast. 2 minutes is an eternity. The real deal is that the hard to counter things are something like 2-3 for each match up, and once you get the timing down you know how/when to check if someone is going for one of those. Also there are a lot of tiny little clues early on - does he have 2 gas or 1 gas, does he have 2 gateways or one, when did he get his cyber core, did he get a reactor or a tech lab, did he expand or is he staying at one base. Scouting is probably the most important skill in this game. There are very little things in the game right now that are pretty tough to counter and of those I think only one is broken (void ray vs terran). But you have to be on your toes, and you need some experience to be able to "sense" when someone is going for something weird. The only way to know a strat is to lose to it :)

wee men with blades cut thors up, but put a couple of cheap buggies in the front and the wee men are fucked.

[Ironwood]

I get that.  It's kinda my point.  Very steep learning curve on the multiplayer.

[Tannhauser]

Is there an easy mode or can you slow the game down?  I've been away from RTS's for a long time and need to get back 'in shape'.

[Ironwood]

Not as far as I'm aware, but one of my opponants last night assured me that you can 'Lern2playnoob'.

So that's nice.

 

[Wolf]

the strange thing is I've had a pretty good experience as far as douchebags are concerned. Most people are being very nice, with the ocasional kid mixed in.

Bowder said the full game will have these "Challanges", a set of UMS maps that will show you counters, make you micro, etc. Get you back in shape if you will.

[Ironwood]

Me too.  It's entirely possible that this guy was merely jesting.  I'd just had around 4 HARD OWNINGS though, so maybe I was oversensitive.

[JWIV]

Just from my own  experiences in other RTS betas - the beta community tends to be pretty civil as these things go.  It's not until it hits the mouthbreathing masses that you get the fucktards. 

[fuser]

It's not until it hits the mouthbreathing masses that you get the fucktards. 

Well anyone with a preorder can access the beta.

[Mosesandstick]

It's a steep curve, but it seems as if it levels off quickly (or gets less steep...) once you've attained a certain level of competency.

I think I started off 10-17, gone for 6 wins in my last 7   
I play 2v2 so there's always that element of luck as well.

Btw, Immortals+Sentry Support goes really well against roaches and hydralisks. They just don't die.

[Wolf]

umm.. no, unless you have a siginficant food or positional advantage. A smart zerg won't engage in a choke and will have a good arc against your army destroying it with a significant number of units left. A smarter zerg will have at least a couple of infestors and mind control some of your immortals. You want colossus vs roach/hydra composition. And storm later on for the big battles.

[Mosesandstick]

Ugh sorry, I didn't mean as a whole army composition. I meant as damage absorbers.

[Ironwood]

It's a steep curve, but it seems as if it levels off quickly (or gets less steep...) once you've attained a certain level of competency.

You're a dipshit.

 

[Hoax]

Someone needs to make a website that renders those replay files into conveniently watchable videos.

Do we have our best minds working on this because it seems like somehow there could be moneyvisors involved at a minimum.

[Samwise]

Someone needs to make a website that renders those replay files into conveniently watchable videos.

Do we have our best minds working on this because it seems like somehow there could be moneyvisors involved at a minimum.

To have it done well and not run the risk of being shut down for copyright infringement it would probably need to be done by Blizzard. 

But if you ignore the copyright issues it could be done pretty easily with a GUI test harness to drive the game menus and fraps to record the video.  Does the replay thingy have an "auto director" mode that tries to follow the action?  If not it gets trickier to produce a useful video -- you'd either need to do some screen-scrubbing to try to implement that yourself, or make multiple recordings from multiple angles and composite them.

[Fordel]

You can set it to follow either players cam, but there isn't anything like an auto director that I know of that would cover everything.

[Vaiti]

I'd wager it would be impractical to even attempt to have a smart director type follow cam anyhow. You really seem to need someone like Day9 who knows StarCraft really well to follow the real action.

If they tried to make a cam to "follow the action" I'm sure what would end up happening is it would be flying to drones scouting taking a pot shot at each other while  something actually relevant was going on elsewhere. The replay feature for SC2 is fairly advanced however, so I guess it isn't entirely out of the question that someone could come up with at least a half decent replay culling mechanic.

Reminds me of CoH replay tools. Where you can follow every action and click and even display statistics like how many actions a player took in the entire match.

[Fordel]

For some of the really high level replays, you need a Picture in Picture box to really follow everything. It's pretty crazy at how much stuff goes on in some of those games.

[Mosesandstick]

You're a dipshit.

 

 

I think it's just most people at our level tend to have one plan (mass something) and stick with it. They also tend to not scout thoroughly, often giving time for a transition to a counter unit.

[Samwise]

You can set it to follow either players cam, but there isn't anything like an auto director that I know of that would cover everything.

Following either player's camera would be adequate.  Do one recording from each perspective and combine them into one side-by-side view.  Or store each video separately and have the website give you a checklist of perspectives that you can have on screen when you watch the replay (you could also include spectators, I assume).

Nightmare mode: do a recording from each chunk of the map and composite them all together into one giant video that you can scroll around.  

[Rasix]

I think it's just most people at our level tend to have one plan (mass something) and stick with it. They also tend to not scout thoroughly, often giving time for a transition to a counter unit.

My level is defined as:

1.  If someone counters, I'm likely dead.
2.  If someone does something crazy, I'm dead.
3.  If the game goes beyond the initial push/counter push, I'm dead.  Although, this is kind of unproven.  I've only recently had two "long" games.  One TvT and one TvZ.  First one went 25 minutes and he finally just wiped me out with a huge marauder swarm backed by vikings to take out my banshees.  Guy had a really tough turtle.  Second one (21 minutes) was a bit better for me with a guy that managed to mass so many roaches that he overwhelmed my marauder/marine force.  He did some crazy crap like overlord dropping a ton of roaches behind my line.  So I just picked up my buildings, moved out my army, and traded bases.  When retried to rebuild, I landed a barracks right outside his base and actually managed to get up a techlab and a bunch of marauders out while playing hide and go seek with my base avoiding a band of traveling roaches.  Guy was kicking my ass ecnomically, I'm just glad he didn't seem to know anything other than MOAR ROACHZ.
4.  If you tech intelligently and have varried army comp, I'm dead.

I'm just now starting to actually counter.  Problem is I still don't know what a lot of shit actually does.  I still have problems with the tech trees.  

[Fordel]

You can set it to follow either players cam, but there isn't anything like an auto director that I know of that would cover everything.

Following either player's camera would be adequate.  Do one recording from each perspective and combine them into one side-by-side view.  Or store each video separately and have the website give you a checklist of perspectives that you can have on screen when you watch the replay (you could also include spectators, I assume).

Nightmare mode: do a recording from each chunk of the map and composite them all together into one giant video that you can scroll around.  

Yea, you can follow the cam of anyone who was in the actual game, player, spectator, ref, whoever.

[LK]

This is a game where it's difficult to actually improve in skill since it requires peak mental and physical faculty at *all times* to be able to be good.

You don't launch a game and expect it to be a casual affair or have any moment where there's downtime.

[Ratadm]

Kiting zealots with reavers is hilarious.  I killed like 8-10 zealots and half the dudes drones before he was finally got out ranged stuff to deal with them.

[Malakili]

This is a game where it's difficult to actually improve in skill since it requires peak mental and physical faculty at *all times* to be able to be good.

I'm not sure how that follows from your premise.  Example "Basketball is a game where it's difficult to actually improve in skill since it requires peak mental and physical faculty at all times to be able to be good" doesn't make much sense to me, and either does this.  Of course you can improve by playing more, practicing, and watching replays (aka  "film") just like any other 'sport'

[Ironwood]

I spent the entire night last night watching high level replays.

I don't think I'm ever going to have a chance in this game.   

Some of the shit they pull off is utterly mental and it's SO fast paced it makes my head spin.

[trias_e]

I spent the entire night last night watching high level replays.

I don't think I'm ever going to have a chance in this game.   

Some of the shit they pull off is utterly mental and it's SO fast paced it makes my head spin.

This is why I think SC2 really does have a solid chance at becoming an e-sport in the U.S., if Blizzard pushes it that route.  The game is fun to play for us mortals, sure.  But it also gives us the knowledge necessary to appreciate just how good some people can be at this game, and how absurd it is.  At this point it can be more fun to watch these freaks of gaming nature play.  I know I get more enjoyment from watching than playing in many situations in my life.  Basically any time I'm stressed, any time my attention can't be fully on the game, anytime I just need a break.  As a poker player and a student I'm already mentally taxed enough in practically everything I do so playing SC2 on top of that can just be too much sometimes.

[Wolf]

On that note, Razer 3rd 4th and Finals tomorrow evening:

Nazgul - Strelok: 20:30 CEST
Dimaga - DeMuslim: 22:30 CEST

bo5 both, live on glhf.tv; hope gunrunn's computer stoped exploding or I'll have to watch the russian stream again.

HDH ro8 live this weekend, on youtube some time later:

Friday, May 7th @ 1PM PST.
Saturday, May 8th @ 1PM PST.

And TLi 2 (US servers edition) on Saturday - 7PM CEST/2PM EST more info and participants: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=123634

MLG did their showmatch thingie yesterday, it should be popping up on youtube shortly.

Also gosucouching's showmatch is scheduled for some time this weekend. It's DeMuslim vs Slush; Demu will probably destroy him but... well EURO SUPERIOR.

YAY STARCRAFT WEEKEND.

[Hoax]

This is a game where it's difficult to actually improve in skill since it requires peak mental and physical faculty at *all times* to be able to be good.

I'm not sure how that follows from your premise.  Example "Basketball is a game where it's difficult to actually improve in skill since it requires peak mental and physical faculty at all times to be able to be good" doesn't make much sense to me, and either does this.  Of course you can improve by playing more, practicing, and watching replays (aka  "film") just like any other 'sport'

You have never played sports have you.  No major sport requires that you have to take time off during a basketball game (while on the court not to mention off it) same goes for all the other major sports and most minor ones.  Sprinting is another example of what he's rightly talking about.  Starcraft, and really all RTS's are like sprints.  You can't casually get good at sprinting you can casually improve your jump shot by just taking a bunch of balls and firing up lazy jumpers by yourself.

[Malakili]

This is a game where it's difficult to actually improve in skill since it requires peak mental and physical faculty at *all times* to be able to be good.

I'm not sure how that follows from your premise.  Example "Basketball is a game where it's difficult to actually improve in skill since it requires peak mental and physical faculty at all times to be able to be good" doesn't make much sense to me, and either does this.  Of course you can improve by playing more, practicing, and watching replays (aka  "film") just like any other 'sport'

You have never played sports have you.  No major sport requires that you have to take time off during a basketball game (while on the court not to mention off it) same goes for all the other major sports and most minor ones.  Sprinting is another example of what he's rightly talking about.  Starcraft, and really all RTS's are like sprints.  You can't casually get good at sprinting you can casually improve your jump shot by just taking a bunch of balls and firing up lazy jumpers by yourself.

Actually, yes I did play sports, at least until the end of high school.   You can EASILY get better at sprinting  "castually" if by casually you mean not doing it all the time.  Practice a little bit a few times a week and you'll be better at sprinting at the end of the month.  You won't be AS BETTER as if you had practiced every day and you might not be "good" at it, but there is still plenty of room to improve.   Or are you just saying you can't get better at sprinting if you don't sprint? Yeah, you're not going to get better at sprinting by jogging, or at least not much better, but thats a statement basically devoid of content to begin with.

[LK]

I find it hard to constantly focus and account for an entire battlefield's worth of data for 20 - 60 minutes. It's very stressful. I imagine it would be similar to any non-hardcore gamer. I can find fault with your basketball example (downtime exists after a shot is made; the encounter is reset; encounters last only a couple minutes at a time) but I know what you meant. Yes, I know it says something about me.

[Malakili]

I find it hard to constantly focus and account for an entire battlefield's worth of data for 20 - 60 minutes. It's very stressful. I imagine it would be similar to any non-hardcore gamer. I can find fault with your basketball example (downtime exists after a shot is made; the encounter is reset; encounters last only a couple minutes at a time) but I know what you meant. Yes, I know it says something about me.

Of course its difficult, I have a lot of problems with it as well.  In fact, I'd go as far as to say that I'm pretty bad at it.  But that doesn't mean its going to be impossible to get better.   If you want to use the sprinting example, you just go as fast as you can for the distance, where fast = play with the best APM you can muster + dealing with the information and distance = length of the game.   You'll get better the more you do it, even if at the beginning you have to walk the last 20 meters.

[Ginaz]

I was able to pre-order the collector's edition yesterday (no beta keys left though).  I'll probably get my ass handed to me online but I enjoyed the original SC a lot so I'm not too concerned about it.

[Megrim]

On that note, Razer 3rd 4th and Finals tomorrow evening:

Nazgul - Strelok: 20:30 CEST
Dimaga - DeMuslim: 22:30 CEST

bo5 both, live on glhf.tv; hope gunrunn's computer stoped exploding or I'll have to watch the russian stream again.

HDH ro8 live this weekend, on youtube some time later:

Friday, May 7th @ 1PM PST.
Saturday, May 8th @ 1PM PST.

And TLi 2 (US servers edition) on Saturday - 7PM CEST/2PM EST more info and participants: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=123634

MLG did their showmatch thingie yesterday, it should be popping up on youtube shortly.

Also gosucouching's showmatch is scheduled for some time this weekend. It's DeMuslim vs Slush; Demu will probably destroy him but... well EURO SUPERIOR.

YAY STARCRAFT WEEKEND.

Awesome, thanks for that mate.

(although watching Strelok play is about as fun as watching paint dry)

[trias_e]

The new patch is interesting.  Toss going phoenix makes me cry as zerg.  You just have to bring all your overlords back to your base and have a few spore crawlers at every base.  Mutas are utterly useless against phoenixes now : /