Bad Groups

[Selby]

We had a DK in our Nexus run last night who insisted on taunting every mob he came across off the tank (Keristrasza was fun).  My tank friend and I figure one day he'll learn the hard way.

[Paelos]

We had a DK in our Nexus run last night who insisted on taunting every mob he came across off the tank (Keristrasza was fun).  My tank friend and I figure one day he'll learn the hard way.

No time like the present, when I'm the tank. I just take a sip of my drink and wait until I see the mob change targets.

[Shrike]

We had a DK in our Nexus run last night who insisted on taunting every mob he came across off the tank (Keristrasza was fun).  My tank friend and I figure one day he'll learn the hard way.

Probably in about 4-5 days. There's going to be a real winnowing when folks start hitting the Cataclysm dungeons. As primarily dps, I'm not sure I really want to hit the lfd tool for some time.

[Lantyssa]

I honestly don't see what else Blizzard could do to reduce loot rolling dickishness options any further. If they start spec-restricting all loot it fucks over dual-specced people. I think it's going to be the biggest impediment to a cross-realm raid finder tool.

Give everyone their own loot instead of making people fight over scraps like dogs.

[Rendakor]

Hard to do that Lantyssa without introducing some kind of randomness. If everyone got an item off every boss then you'd be done with dungeons very quickly; I'm thinking more of raids here than dungeons but the point stands. Maybe if you gave everyone a loot bag similar to what you get in Occulus, which has a chance to have an item, or just JP. Give the bags a 10% chance to have an item in them, and restrict items to something the character "could" use; don't check for spec, but check for appropriate armor type, etc.; keep loot tables how they are, so you can still only get Item_X off Boss_Y, and you'd have a pretty workable system. Oh, and make the items BoP.

I think that'd work as a loot option (don't get rid of Master Loot, just add "Personal Loot Bags" as a new loot system) that would make Cross Server Raiding possible.

[Sheepherder]

I honestly don't see what else Blizzard could do to reduce loot rolling dickishness options any further. If they start spec-restricting all loot it fucks over dual-specced people. I think it's going to be the biggest impediment to a cross-realm raid finder tool.

Main Spec / Off-Spec / Greed + Disenchant

The winner of a Greed/DE roll gets the shard, everyone else gets 130% the item's value in money.  If the item goes to an actual roll, all the people rolling get no money.  Lastly, to curb inflation trash mobs drop no money.

[K9]

Hard to do that Lantyssa without introducing some kind of randomness. If everyone got an item off every boss then you'd be done with dungeons very quickly; I'm thinking more of raids here than dungeons but the point stands. Maybe if you gave everyone a loot bag similar to what you get in Occulus, which has a chance to have an item, or just JP. Give the bags a 10% chance to have an item in them, and restrict items to something the character "could" use; don't check for spec, but check for appropriate armor type, etc.; keep loot tables how they are, so you can still only get Item_X off Boss_Y, and you'd have a pretty workable system. Oh, and make the items BoP.

I think that'd work as a loot option (don't get rid of Master Loot, just add "Personal Loot Bags" as a new loot system) that would make Cross Server Raiding possible.

Given that I have received a grand total of about one useful item from the random dungeon loot bags, I am slightly wary of your suggestion :p

[ezrast]

Hard to do that Lantyssa without introducing some kind of randomness. If everyone got an item off every boss then you'd be done with dungeons very quickly; I'm thinking more of raids here than dungeons but the point stands. Maybe if you gave everyone a loot bag similar to what you get in Occulus, which has a chance to have an item, or just JP. Give the bags a 10% chance to have an item in them, and restrict items to something the character "could" use; don't check for spec, but check for appropriate armor type, etc.; keep loot tables how they are, so you can still only get Item_X off Boss_Y, and you'd have a pretty workable system. Oh, and make the items BoP.

I think that'd work as a loot option (don't get rid of Master Loot, just add "Personal Loot Bags" as a new loot system) that would make Cross Server Raiding possible.

In 10-person raids, it's not uncommon for certain classes to auto-win any main spec armor that drops (caster mail and leather mostly). For those, you wouldn't need to change the drop rates or check for proper armor type, just give them one random drop off the boss for every kill and they'd gear up at pretty much the same speed (plus a lot more vendor trash). I don't know if, e.g., cloth drop rates are higher to account for the fact that there is always more competition for cloth than for int mail, but if not than this would also add parity in gearing speed across specs.

Given that I have received a grand total of about one useful item from the random dungeon loot bags, I am slightly wary of your suggestion :p

Ha, yeah, those loot tables are whack. My resto shaman only ever got agi mail, and my feral only ever gets caster leather.

Back on topic: was tanking mana tombs and the healer decided to help us move faster by running ahead and pulling spawns back to me. He even pulled a boss this way. When I told him to cut that out, he called me grumpy and acted like a general asswipe until his 15 minutes were up and we kicked him. I try to have a "just let them die" policy when people pull like this, but it never works because the other DPS always joins in and takes aggro from the douchebag in question. Up til now I've been trying not to let them die, but fuck it. DPS shouldn't be hitting something I haven't even touched, so I'm considering just letting the whole rest of the group wipe next time.

[Rendakor]

In 10-person raids, it's not uncommon for certain classes to auto-win any main spec armor that drops (caster mail and leather mostly). For those, you wouldn't need to change the drop rates or check for proper armor type, just give them one random drop off the boss for every kill and they'd gear up at pretty much the same speed (plus a lot more vendor trash). I don't know if, e.g., cloth drop rates are higher to account for the fact that there is always more competition for cloth than for int mail, but if not than this would also add parity in gearing speed across specs.

Yea, I suppose you could just have the bags contain random loot from the boss's loot table so sometimes you get an upgrade, sometimes something offspec, and sometimes vendor trash. You still can't always give out an item though; you need to keep the droprate comparable to what it is now. 10% is too low now that I think about it, 25% (for 10 man raids; 2-3 items per boss) is about accurate.

[ezrast]

But in the current system, if a piece of caster mail drops, I get it on my resto shaman 90% of the time. Under your system, if caster mail drops, I get it 10% of the time. The boss needs to drop more items per kill if the game isn't going to let players decide who ends up with them. Though, now that I think about it your original idea (only drop the proper armor type) was better than my suggestion anyway.

[Lantyssa]

You still can't always give out an item though

Why not?

[Ingmar]

Because that's not how their raid model works? Give out an item to every single person for every single kill and you not only invalidate content far faster than it can be created, you also probably destroy the economy in the process.

[Paelos]

Because that's not how their raid model works? Give out an item to every single person for every single kill and you not only invalidate content far faster than it can be created, you also probably destroy the economy in the process.

I'd like an option to trade raid points for gold on the AH. Imagine the possibilities!

[Azazel]

I honestly don't see what else Blizzard could do to reduce loot rolling dickishness options any further. If they start spec-restricting all loot it fucks over dual-specced people. I think it's going to be the biggest impediment to a cross-realm raid finder tool.

Give everyone their own loot instead of making people fight over scraps like dogs.

This happens as well, now. When levelling via the RDF you get a "bag of useful goods" which always has a nice blue in it, for your class. There's a few small variations (one neck might have sta/agi/str, one might have sta/str/dodge, etc) But yes, what you suggested is in the game for the levelling dungeons. I've gotten rings, shoulders, belts, etc that have been nice upgrades.

[Simond]

You still can't always give out an item though

Why not?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement

tl;dr - Randomised loot gives a bigger psychological boost than fixed rewards at reliable intervals.
It's just how the mind works. If you want to 'fix' it, you don't need to redesign the game, you need to redesign how every animal brain works. Good luck!

[Lantyssa]

If random loot is the answer, then they should move to a Diablo-like loot system where the item is truly random.

[Ingmar]

Why would it have to be all or nothing like that?

[Lantyssa]

Because according to what's being said, awarding the same item every time doesn't work, so they'd rather have people get no items at all.  Since I believe getting nothing for your effort is poor design, that's my suggestion.

[Ingmar]

I think they're still getting badges/points and money, so that's not really nothing, though?

[Rendakor]

You're not getting "nothing", you're still getting JP. The system I suggested maintains the feel of bosses having specific loot (ideally themed to the boss in question), while removing the reliance on a raid leader or the current NBG roll; both of those systems are ripe for abuse by the dickheads who comprise a significant portion of WoW's playerbase. I wouldn't suggest using such a system to replace all others (such as loot council, guild ML /rolling, DKP, etc.), but it would be the option that makes cross server /lookingforraid viable..

[Paelos]

You know how you improve the game? Stop putting random armor on raid bosses. We can get random armor through points, thanks. Random weapons, cloaks, rings, necks, trinkets, etc. That's fine for RUG loot.

[Sheepherder]

Or just move all that shit to rep vendors, so that you only have to grind the ever loving fuck out of a raid once to potentially fill out all of your spec's sets.

[Rendakor]

The sooner you get all the gear you want from a zone, the quicker you get bored with the game. If Blizz put out expansions in half the time that they do, I could see your argument. But to have a single raid tier of content for a WHOLE YEAR, you have to keep the rate of gear acquisition slow. Gearing up offspecs gave people another reason to raid in the time before Cata hit. If that shit was all buyable with Ashen Verdict exalted (or whatever), a lot of people would have gotten bored and quit (sooner than they did already), and people who quit aren't always guaranteed to come back for the next patch/expansion.

[Sheepherder]

Except your argument doesn't hold if you're a mage, rogue, hunter or warlock.  Who apparently have all unsubbed by now.

[apocrypha]

a lot of people

Sheepherder, why do you often turn things people say into absolute binary statements? It's reductionist and absurd and contributes nothing to an exchange of ideas.

I actually did stop playing my mage earlier than some of my other classes precisely because there was nothing within reasonable reach for me to gear up on any more. My shaman, paladin, druid, warrior etc. all had offsets they could collect and so they got played for longer.

[Sheepherder]

Sheepherder, why do you often turn things people say into absolute binary statements? It's reductionist and absurd and contributes nothing to an exchange of ideas.

It's not an idea that needs a complete and full rebuttal, when the logical extension of the argument is triple the grind, triple the pleasure.  We all know that grind is shitty, and only gets done because the shiny is deemed worthwhile, and fun might be had along the way.  I would bet most players don't give a ratfuck about their hybrid classes third set aside from whatever low-hanging offspec fruit they can grab.  Hell, there's players that don't give a shit about a second set, don't give a shit about a second spec, or just dual-spec DPS/DPS when they have the option to be a tank or healer because they would rather pound nails through their dick than grind up another set.

On the other hand, how many raids have you seen canceled because people couldn't scrounge up a geared healer or tank because the guild's tanks / healers are too burned out?  Do you think maybe that has an impact on retention too?

EDIT: Just for the sake of completeness.

I'm enjoying them for the moment. I haven't tanked before in WoW, so it's a bit of a learning experience, though it's not exactly hard, but it's still something new and shiny for me.

[apocrypha]

Putting all the loot on rep vendors and having all the loot drop in raids are two opposite ends of the gearing up spectrum. Either way, taken to extreme, will be less effective at pleasing as many people as possible as having a mixture between the two extremes.

Funnily enough, the middle path that we currently have seems to be rather good at keeping people subbed.

Whatever though, there's just no need to be so obnoxious about your opinions is my main point.

[Lantyssa]

I also never said the full desired item has to drop from the boss.  I just said everyone gets something.  Then you're competing with the RNG and not the RNG and other players.  You'd still be free to trade, too.

[Sheepherder]

Putting all the loot on rep vendors and having all the loot drop in raids are two opposite ends of the gearing up spectrum. Either way, taken to extreme, will be less effective at pleasing as many people as possible as having a mixture between the two extremes.

Funnily enough, the middle path that we currently have seems to be rather good at keeping people subbed.

Whatever though, there's just no need to be so obnoxious about your opinions is my main point.

Bringing up the Ashen Verdict like it's relevant is also pretty obnoxious, because Blizzard obviously intends that to be freebies and builds accordingly.

Which would be entirely different from rewarding rep only from boss kills, and with the bosses ceasing to give rep after a certain point determined by their difficulty.  Or tracking your rep in Naxx from the start, but only enabling the associated T7 vendors after Ulduar has launched.

[Rendakor]

I also never said the full desired item has to drop from the boss.  I just said everyone gets something.  Then you're competing with the RNG and not the RNG and other players.  You'd still be free to trade, too.

All you've done now is given guilds 10 pieces of loot per boss (in 10m of course).

"Ok Player1, open trade with the raid leader. Ok Player2, open..."
"Starting Bids on Player1'sItem, PST"

It'd be the clusterfuck that happens when the Loot Master DCs, except every time and with the added bonus of completing your gearing from the zone 5x faster. This would absolutely not work in anything resembling the current raiding game, and if you've played it that is obvious.


Sheep, you've just taken your suggestion from bad to worse. In rep fantasy land, if I'm exalted with the GearVendors in Naxx, then Ulduar comes out and I can already buy all the gear, why do I bother raiding Ulduar? You could make a case for putting all gear on JP vendors and only having bosses drop points, but a single rep that you grind in one tier of raid content but gives you access to all raid gear ever is fucking retarded.

[Sheepherder]

Sheep, you've just taken your suggestion from bad to worse. In rep fantasy land, if I'm exalted with the GearVendors in Naxx, then Ulduar comes out and I can already buy all the gear, why do I bother raiding Ulduar? You could make a case for putting all gear on JP vendors and only having bosses drop points, but a single rep that you grind in one tier of raid content but gives you access to all raid gear ever is fucking retarded.

Or tracking your rep in Naxx from the start, but only enabling the associated T7 vendors after Ulduar has launched.

your rep in Naxx from the start, associated T7 vendors after Ulduar

rep in Naxx T7 vendors

T7

[Rendakor]

Shit, Naxx was T7 wasn't it? My bad.

[Lantyssa]

It'd be the clusterfuck that happens when the Loot Master DCs, except every time and with the added bonus of completing your gearing from the zone 5x faster. This would absolutely not work in anything resembling the current raiding game, and if you've played it that is obvious.

As if I care about the raiding game.  That's a tiny fraction of the player base.  But if you insist, you could have different rules for raids.

Though I seem to recall something about 25 man raids giving more of the same as 10 man now, but it's eluding me.  Like something about rewarding a higher ratio or something.  That couldn't be it though.  I mean, if what you want is the way it should be, then 25 man raids should give even less, to encourage more raiding.

[Sjofn]

The way it is now, with points + drops, is a lot more appealing to me than any of the alternatives so far suggested. I get points, so I am still getting something. In fact, I'm still being rewarded for doing content my personal character might be done with drop-wise, which is extra tasty. So I still get the "Yes! My shiny finally dropped!" part, but without the "ffffffffuuuuuuuuuck this entire night was a waste of time because my shiny didn't drop." I can focus on "fffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuck this entire night was a waste of time because people keep standing in fire."

[Merusk]

As if I care about the raiding game.  That's a tiny fraction of the player base.  But if you insist, you could have different rules for raids.

It's not the tiny fraction you think it is.  Old numbers, but Damion Schubert mentions that back in BC more than half of the level 70s had at least one piece of raid loot. Source  That was in the hard times of crappy lockouts and keying reqs, when Pugs happened for Kara and not much else.  It was easier to get epics via PvP than PvE, with the "lose 10 arenas for loot" mechanics.  Since every single tier of WLK was PUGable within a few weeks of opening, that number is more likely to have grown than shrunk.

So yes, endgame and raiding very much matters.

25's give more loot than 10s so as to not wipe out large-group raiding entirely.  If they gave equal percentages of loot it would make more sense to only raid 10s so that's all that would be done.  There would be fewer of your type and class in the raid to roll against, giving you a much greater chance of winning an item.