Bad Groups

[Sheepherder]

Tank spec and DPS gear is totally viable.  Threat sets are now deprecated, since defense is gone, and stamina has been normalized.  With DPS gear filling the need that expertise/defense or hit/defense gear once did.

[Selby]

I've been in serveral PUGs now where the ret dickhead (it's ALWAYS a ret paladin for me for some reason) queues as a tank or healer and then demands someone else change to that role because they can't REALLY do that job, they just wanted the faster queue.

I answered that once with "would you prefer the mage, rogue or priest start tanking?"  He didn't get it.

Once on my warrior who was mid 40's recently had the same issue where the tank just randomly drops Ulduman 3m after the instance starts: "dinner, didn't think it would take this long gotta go."  My warrior is arms with no shield or 1-H, and the healer says "give it a go, we'll just be careful" and the instance went fine for 10 minutes while we cleared it.  Even the last boss was fine.  Sure, a few mobs got out of control but they died quick enough and our healer was pretty good, so no real problems.

[Shrike]

In the sense of being able to tank a wide range of bosses, that's going to go for the most part. I suspect there will be a range of off-tanking scenarios where Enhancement Shamans will be able to work; it'll probably be very fight specific though.

I think you will see this again--and I'm kind of dreading it, though this is exactly what my fury warrior did in vanilla when we needed that sixth tank.

Enhance has a few new tools for offtanking. They have very high dodge ratings. Rockbiter has been revamped for mitigation. Enhance is now VERY mobile. Runspeed talents, instawolf, and frostshock (when it works) would make kiting certain mobs pretty easy. Throw in shackling elementals and hex, and you have a pretty flexible subclass with a variety of controls.

[K9]

Yeah, enhance is looking like a lot of fun. It's a complex class to play well though.

[Azazel]

I've been in serveral PUGs now where the ret dickhead (it's ALWAYS a ret paladin for me for some reason) queues as a tank or healer and then demands someone else change to that role because they can't REALLY do that job, they just wanted the faster queue.

I answered that once with "would you prefer the mage, rogue or priest start tanking?"  He didn't get it.

Once on my warrior who was mid 40's recently had the same issue where the tank just randomly drops Ulduman 3m after the instance starts: "dinner, didn't think it would take this long gotta go."  My warrior is arms with no shield or 1-H, and the healer says "give it a go, we'll just be careful" and the instance went fine for 10 minutes while we cleared it.  Even the last boss was fine.  Sure, a few mobs got out of control but they died quick enough and our healer was pretty good, so no real problems.

Get yourself a 5g dual spec, a shield and a 1h with stamina on it. Problem solved.

Actually, afre the past few days and despite enjoying the DPS role, I can't understand why anyone who can queue as a tank at lower levels doesn't.

[kildorn]

I've been in serveral PUGs now where the ret dickhead (it's ALWAYS a ret paladin for me for some reason) queues as a tank or healer and then demands someone else change to that role because they can't REALLY do that job, they just wanted the faster queue.

I answered that once with "would you prefer the mage, rogue or priest start tanking?"  He didn't get it.

Once on my warrior who was mid 40's recently had the same issue where the tank just randomly drops Ulduman 3m after the instance starts: "dinner, didn't think it would take this long gotta go."  My warrior is arms with no shield or 1-H, and the healer says "give it a go, we'll just be careful" and the instance went fine for 10 minutes while we cleared it.  Even the last boss was fine.  Sure, a few mobs got out of control but they died quick enough and our healer was pretty good, so no real problems.

Get yourself a 5g dual spec, a shield and a 1h with stamina on it. Problem solved.

Actually, afre the past few days and despite enjoying the DPS role, I can't understand why anyone who can queue as a tank at lower levels doesn't.

Responsibility, usually. I leveled my paladin using LFD instatank queues, and it was fine (plus prot is just lol when solo, too), but some days I just did not want to deal with what amounts to cat herding in some groups.

[Sjofn]

Yeah, people tend to default to "the tank leads" and a lot of people don't want to deal with that. I queue as a tank when ALL I want to do is a dungeon, of course, but when I have other stuff to do as well? I actually like the queue, it gives me time to putter around doing quests or whatever, with the dungeon popping to add some variety. Does that mean I'm weird? Probably! 

[Paelos]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/795945-What-Wrath-players-need-to-know-to-not-suck-at-Cata!

That thread makes the front page at MMO Champ explaining how you have to play in order to succeed in groups. The wheels are already turning for the people that know we're in for a bumpy ride.

[kildorn]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/795945-What-Wrath-players-need-to-know-to-not-suck-at-Cata!

That thread makes the front page at MMO Champ explaining how you have to play in order to succeed in groups. The wheels are already turning for the people that know we're in for a bumpy ride.

I read that list. It's sad, but useful for some people. It basically sums up as "stop being dicks to your healer, don't stand in fire damnit, and dear tanks: your ae threat was nerfed and some of you have been really bitchy in pugs. Stop it. Also, DPS: seriously, stop being terrible and actually use your non damage abilities sometime.

[kildorn]

Yeah, people tend to default to "the tank leads" and a lot of people don't want to deal with that. I queue as a tank when ALL I want to do is a dungeon, of course, but when I have other stuff to do as well? I actually like the queue, it gives me time to putter around doing quests or whatever, with the dungeon popping to add some variety. Does that mean I'm weird? Probably! 

The queue for DPS is pretty much proven to pop the minute you see a rare named wandering around, or are three pulls from a quest mob.

Personally, I've used the DPS queue to work on trade skills/gathering, or just to break up the quest day to make sure I won't go batty in 15-20 minutes. healer queues are near instant and have the advantage that you don't have to talk to anyone or run anything. Just occasionally make sarcastic comments at your monitor because groups look so dysfunctional from 20 yards back. "Really? Is your imp REALLY on aggressive?"

[Ivanneth]

Yeah, people tend to default to "the tank leads" and a lot of people don't want to deal with that. I queue as a tank when ALL I want to do is a dungeon, of course, but when I have other stuff to do as well? I actually like the queue, it gives me time to putter around doing quests or whatever, with the dungeon popping to add some variety. Does that mean I'm weird? Probably! 

You're not alone - I like having 15 mins for dailies/chatting/crafting/whatever in between instances. It's mildly frustrating when I'm in Badge farming mode and inexplicably the queue takes over 30 minutes to pop, but when I queue as healer and get <5 minute queue times I feel like I can't do anything but stand in a major city and wait for the queue.  

[Paelos]

Yeah as a tank you just queue and click accept. There's no questing or doing anything else.

[Simond]

Just had a fun Shadowfang Keep group. Apart from the general idiocy expected (no, rogue, you can't sap the bosses), Commander Springvale was the apex of the hilarity. For those who haven't run SFK post-Shattering, the good Commander is now a DK of sorts and has two new abilities - Desecrate (as per player DKs but with a dot effect) and a rather interesting little number called Shield of the Perfidious. The desecrate was bad enough (another group that didn't seem to grasp the "don't stand in the whatever" concept). but that second ability?

Despite it being a highly visible channelled cone spell with advance warming and the Commander being stationary and on a fixed facing when he casts it, the tank and both other dps stood right in front of him for the full duration, then bitched at the healer when they died.

[apocrypha]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/795945-What-Wrath-players-need-to-know-to-not-suck-at-Cata!

That thread makes the front page at MMO Champ explaining how you have to play in order to succeed in groups. The wheels are already turning for the people that know we're in for a bumpy ride.

Shit I just posted the same link in the Cata thread. Sorry for the cross-post!

[Azazel]

Yeah, people tend to default to "the tank leads" and a lot of people don't want to deal with that. I queue as a tank when ALL I want to do is a dungeon, of course, but when I have other stuff to do as well? I actually like the queue, it gives me time to putter around doing quests or whatever, with the dungeon popping to add some variety. Does that mean I'm weird? Probably! 

No, I get you there actually.

[Azazel]

Yeah as a tank you just queue and click accept. There's no questing or doing anything else.

Though this also means you can run around, finish that quest, hand in, sell, go train, repair your boots, then do the dungeon (any dungeon you select) *now*. Rather than at the whim of the LFG (Sorry, you missed the queue because you foolishly went to the toilet - another 20 min wait for you!)

[Sjofn]

So I can understand being peeved someone rolled on something that wasn't really FOR them in a dungeon (it happened to me a couple months ago and I totally made an annoyed face in real life! And I think I even posted here about it!) but the people who harp and harp and harp and harp on it for the remainder of the instance baffle and delight me when it's a level 40-ish dungeon.

[kildorn]

So I can understand being peeved someone rolled on something that wasn't really FOR them in a dungeon (it happened to me a couple months ago and I totally made an annoyed face in real life! And I think I even posted here about it!) but the people who harp and harp and harp and harp on it for the remainder of the instance baffle and delight me when it's a level 40-ish dungeon.

This. I got bitched out by a warrior in a strath group for rolling on a 2.6 speed fist weapon on my enhance shaman. He won it, but kept bitching and bitching even when the entire group takes the time to point out that yes, it's something I can use and would want.

People who bitch in leveling instances about loot are just odd to me. You won't be using it in 15 minutes anyways. Unless you're like me and suddenly notice you have level 15 bracers on at level 45.

[Azazel]

Had a trinket drop with 10sta on it just now. The fucking healer rolled on it against me (tank) and won it. I didn't bother to say anything, but what a shitbag. I'll farm that instance now till I get it or outlevel it, I guess.

[Ironwood]

Was that all it had on it ?

[Reg]

I can't see getting all bent out of shape over equipment that goes obsolete in a couple of levels.

[Rendakor]

It's the principle of the thing, really. Rolling need on something that isn't for your class/spec/whatever is a dick move, period. Just because I'd replace Item_X in an hour of questing doesn't make you any less of a douchebag for rolling on it.

[Reg]

Oh sure, it was a douchie move but it's sure not worth farming the dungeon to get one of his own like he says he plans to.

[Azazel]

Was that all it had on it ?

And a clicky of some sort. Self-remove disease if I recall right. Or poison. Thing is, this is at level 35, so 10sta for an untwinked tank is actually a pretty big/significant bump, especially when I have no other trinkets - my first trinket was almost always the carrot on a stick at around 45.

Farming = choose it from the RDF 2 or 3 times with instant queues before I outlevel it. Kinda like I farmed SM-Armoury and ran it about 4-6 times in total to get the shoulders (got the legs and axe as well on previous runthroughs).

[Reg]

Fair enough. I'm just not much into doing the same dungeon over and over for any reason. That's why I never last long into the end game.

[Azazel]

I'm enjoying them for the moment. I haven't tanked before in WoW, so it's a bit of a learning experience, though it's not exactly hard, but it's still something new and shiny for me. instant queues are after having typically had 9-17min wait on my mage, though.

[Lantyssa]

10 stamina is also a huge boost to a caster who has to survive after their untwinked tank dies because he has crappy health.

[Ironwood]

Personally, as someone who owns 3 tanks, I think this one is a big who cares.  But hey, that's just me.

Bear in mind that others have to level too - they get hit doing that.

[Ingmar]

If you want ~10 stamina trinkets you'll get two completing all the quests in searing gorge.

EDIT: Or maybe it was badlands. One of those two, anyway.

[Sjofn]

And a clicky of some sort. Self-remove disease if I recall right. Or poison. Thing is, this is at level 35, so 10sta for an untwinked tank is actually a pretty big/significant bump, especially when I have no other trinkets - my first trinket was almost always the carrot on a stick at around 45.

There are trinket quest rewards in the Plaguelands now. Real trinkets. I'm not sure about the other zones that are that level.

[Azazel]

Personally, as someone who owns 3 tanks, I think this one is a big who cares.  But hey, that's just me.

Bear in mind that others have to level too - they get hit doing that.

Yeah, as Rendakor said, it's a douche move.

I didn't say anything to the guy, but it pissed me off. If I'd rolled on an item that was loaded with int but also had good stamina, I'm sure the casters would have had a fissy hit. Because I've seen it happen with other items. Like I said, I thought "prick", didn't say anything, and went on with the dungeon until we had to kick him for being afk for 10mins, which coincidently was right after he won the trinket.

You're right though. I should just roll on anyeverything that's a slight upgrade to me in any way. 

[apocrypha]

Some people are dicks in dungeons sometimes. This doesn't change at level 60/70/80. This will never change. If you get bent out of shape about it every single time you're gonna start hating dungeons pretty quickly. Wait til you tank heroics at the end of an expansion cycle. The dick quotient is through the roof.

I honestly don't see what else Blizzard could do to reduce loot rolling dickishness options any further. If they start spec-restricting all loot it fucks over dual-specced people. I think it's going to be the biggest impediment to a cross-realm raid finder tool.

[Rendakor]

You replace "Need" with Mainspec and Offspec; mainspec being spec-locked to what you are in the dungeon as, offspec given the same restrictions as the current Need. Mainspec > Offspec > Greed/DE.

[Azazel]

If I got bent out of shape, I'd have told him he was a cunt, etc, and bitched him out. Instead I thought "you wanker" and decided to go back in there and get one using the power of instant queues. Which I did this evening, right after that last post, by the way. Not lore, I'll have to go in again and get another one. apoc, I've done what I think is safe to say a couple hundred dungeons via the RDF on my main. I'm well aware of dicks and cunts.

Honestly, you guys are making a bigger deal about it than I did. I just said the guy was a tosser and that it pissed me off.

I had a healer tonight in the run I got the trinket from, who was just an offensive dickhead. I think it's safe to say that it was him and not me, since 2 others in the group spoke up about him being a rude dickwad. We kicked him and had a good run. it works out alright, sometimes. 

[apocrypha]

Fair enough. I think I've come to expect people to get angry about these things! I'm really interested to see how this thread develops once we all start doing Cata randoms.