Bad Groups

[Sheepherder]

I think what Ironwood wants is more something designed to just kill the DPS at random, leaving him and the healer alive to finish the fight.  Trash pulls of mobs that can each cast Dark Simulacrum would probably fit his need.

[WoopeeTuralyon]

There's a different between not-faceroll easy and cockstabbingly difficult. I'd enjoy an instance somewhere in between, where I actually have to pay attention but a minute error won't always result in a complete wipe. I like having to actually cast healing spells when I heal rather than putting Earth Shield on the tank and LBing the entire time.

I liked BC heroics for this reason (though I wouldn't have minded places like Bot being a little shorter). I was challenged even in T6 gear unless the tank was similarly geared, in which case I *still* had to heal a great deal more than I do now, since BC heroic mobs hit exceptionally hard. The instances themselves were never absurdly difficult, they just required more coordination and attentiveness than the average faceroll today.

Except MgT, that place was rough with my favorite tank, who insisted upon not using CC at all.

On a completely different note, I apparently got very lucky in that I've never been turned down from a raid on the basis of my gearscore. In fact, after my first ICC10, I was frequently asked to heal things like ToGC25 even with my low GS. I declined because of my own lack of confidence in my ability to perform as required in my gear though. Really, the way people talk about GS I feel fortunate to have always had my gearscore looked over.

[Ingmar]

H MgT was easier for us than some of the other ones, frankly (fuck H Mechanar right in the ear, specifically the chick with the 2 fire elementals). The harder TBC heroics were just simply too hard for random dungeon finder type groups unless you could outgear them by a mile. HHoR is about as far as I think you can get away with for the randoms, and even that is iffy at times.

[Rendakor]

I think H HoR is past my pug hassle threshold. If all instances are that bad, heroics will be guild-group only.

[apocrypha]

BAD GROUP STORY ALERT!

Azjol Nerub with my 73 warrior tank yesterday. Before I even get to the first 2 spiders the elemental shaman Chain Lightning's them. I get them off him, they die, I say "could you let me get some agro before pulling mate". 2nd pack he Thunderstorms, knocking them into the watchers and starting the event. I manage to get off a "and please don't do knockbacks!" before a clusterfuck of all 3 packs of watchers descends on us and I have to pop every single cooldown I have to avoid a total wipe.

Healer's doing a sterling job throughout this and manages to keep us all up but only at the cost of his entire mana bar (holydin). The shaman had half of the agro during the whole bunfight, mostly because he kept thunderstorming whenever it was off cd. When the dust settles I say "Phew, good healing, and *please* shaman, take it easy and let me pull and don't knock mobs back!". Shaman replies "If you can't hold agro then you suck tank". Me: "Don't be a tard".

Ditch. I've got better things to do than get into arguments with retarded DPS. THOSE are the ones that, I agree totally with Ironwood, need to die repeatedly.

Oh, and pet names? My hunter had a cat called Dog, a wolf called Cat and a bear called Boar.

[Ingmar]

Oh, and pet names? My hunter had a cat called Dog, a wolf called Cat and a bear called Boar.

Farmer. 

[Ironwood]

Nah, you should have kicked that shaman.  If the healer was that good, it was just dps tardness.

[apocrypha]

Farmer. 

Lol. Nah farmers have cats called Cat, wolves called Wolf and bears called Bear!

Nah, you should have kicked that shaman.  If the healer was that good, it was just dps tardness.

Didn't fancy enduring the 10 mins required to kick him. I have alts. Ditch, play a different char, do daily on the warrior later.

[Ironwood]

Ah, Good Point.  I had forgotten about the timer.

[Azazel]

BAD GROUP STORY ALERT!
Ditch. I've got better things to do than get into arguments with retarded DPS. THOSE are the ones that, I agree totally with Ironwood, need to die repeatedly.

Those are the ones that need to die IRL in a car fire. Never mind their WoW characters. Might have been worth friendlisting the healer, though.

[Ratman_tf]

You and probably around 85% of manginas with owl pets.  

I thought I was being original.  

[Soulflame]

H Mech was one of the easier heroics, I thought.  Even with firebitch, waves of mobs, including that goddamn GIANT ROBOT, and of course, grenade throwing bastards.  Although, it was hilarious to have a warlock for those.  Enslave, grenade other mobs, profit.

Imagine Shadow Labs with a random dungeon finder group.  Or Shattered Halls.  Or INSERT_AUCH_DUNGEON_HERE.

[apocrypha]

Those are the ones that need to die IRL in a car fire.

A tad harsh, mostly the tards are just 12 years old, which is a condition that people eventually recover from unaided. 

[Lantyssa]

H Mech was one of the easier heroics, I thought.  Even with firebitch, waves of mobs, including that goddamn GIANT ROBOT, and of course, grenade throwing bastards.  Although, it was hilarious to have a warlock for those.  Enslave, grenade other mobs, profit.

You must understand the dynamics of their raids:  If it should be easy, they'll die horribly.  If they have no right getting past the fight, they'll sleep walk through it.

[Morat20]

I think H HoR is past my pug hassle threshold. If all instances are that bad, heroics will be guild-group only.

Goddamn clusterfuck of a dungeon. I haven't had a successful pug of the heroic since my first run. (Where I was DEAD the second fucking boss, and thus didn't get credit for it. I was dead because I yanked trash off the fucking healer, and apparently rezzing the DPS before the boss wasn't urgent in any way, despite the lack of...shit going on for a minute or two while the boss yacks).

I hate that fucking place. I hate fucking tanks there, I hate healers there, I hate the fucking fact that half the people in the world refuse to hide out of sight (but won't cc either). I hate the fucking 30k hp tanks "swearing" they're defense capped and have tanked ICC going down to back-to-back crits and blaming the healers, who apprarently should be able to heal backwards in time.

I hate healers, tanks, and other DPS who scream mutual contradictory focus-fire orders (priest then merc? Merc then priest? Mage then merc? Focus fire but AoE? MAKE UP YOUR GODDAMN MIND).

Goddamn that place is just like a kick in the balls, everytime a random zones me in. It's just a matter of HOW you're going to wipe, and what drama is going to accompany it.

[Paelos]

Gauntlets are a shitty mechanic that serve only to piss off tanks and healers.

[Soulflame]

HHOR was kind of touch and go the first time I ran it in a guild group, and afterwards it wasn't too bad.  I do recall PUGing my way through it a couple of times, at least, but I was never ever happy about it.

[SurfD]

The problem with HOR is that it's mechanics are ALL OVER THE PLACE.

The trash for the first two bosses is a rediculous exercise in "can your tank pick everything up before it gibbs someone", with a signifigant curve for how easy that is for different tanks (unless you can convince everyone to hump a LoS corner long enough for the tank to get everything).   Not to mention that there are also Poison and Curses and silences and stuns flying left and right, meaning that your kill order on mobs often depended on what shit your healer could NOT cleanse off you (no decurse? kill the hunter.  Priest healer with no poison removal? Kill the rogue first).

Then the first boss and his stacking effectiveness reducer made the fight a hard dps race.  Essentially, if you couldnt kill the first boss, you werent going to finish the instance, however, if you DID kill the first boss, the rest of the instance should be eaily doable.

Second boss was a joke.

Then you had the gauntlet, which, before they fixed it, could easily be spontaneously failed simply because the shadowcasters could kill sylvanas / jaina with their AoE shadowbolt spam since it was possible for Sylvanas / jaina to start the escape run with as little as 10k health left.

[Soulflame]

As a loladin healer, the worst part of one of the HHoR bosses was the damage you'd take after the fear.  I don't recall anyone dying to that, but I always lived in mortal fear that someone would.

[Rendakor]

Bubble > Divine Sacrifice fixes that rather well, provided you're specced correctly.

[Sjofn]

H Mech was one of the easier heroics, I thought.  Even with firebitch, waves of mobs, including that goddamn GIANT ROBOT, and of course, grenade throwing bastards.  Although, it was hilarious to have a warlock for those.  Enslave, grenade other mobs, profit.

You must understand the dynamics of their raids:  If it should be easy, they'll die horribly.  If they have no right getting past the fight, they'll sleep walk through it.

Pretty much! Although Sindragosa is shooting that all to hell.

But yeah, all through TBC we'd be told by Other People that heroic Mech was easy. I think I was on two successful completions of it. Two. I lost count of how many times we did heroic MgT.


EDIT: Also, I like gauntlets as a tank, nyah!

[Sjofn]

Anyone have use for a good rogue/DKtankcough/mage? My server is full of stupid-heads.

I realised no one answered you! How rude! If you want to play alliance, there's some of us on Doomhammer. We have a wiiiiiiiiiiiiiide skill-at-the-game range but we try to at least be pretty nice. If you're Horde, I suggest a server in Moon Guard's battlegroup. MOST of the people I've randomed with there have been nice and have not sucked. Moon Guard itself, Horde side, is mostly friendly and they have a good AH.

[Ingmar]

It should be noted we tend towards the stuffy and politically correct if that is a problem (or a plus!) for you.

[proudft]

It should also be noted that Moon Guard's battlegroup is absolutely horrible at pvp, if you care about that.  For me, it's a plus.   Horde usually wins their share of battles, but the one-on-one pvp that goes on within the battlegrounds.... hoo boy.  It makes me feel like a star, though!   

[Sjofn]

Oh man, how could I forget how bad everyone is at PvP there. When I look like some sort of hardened veteran of the PvP wars, you know something is fucked up.

[Setanta]

H-HoR is one of the few challenging instances left in the game. Tanking it is fun if you are def capped - otherwise you shouldn't be in there. It also requires DPS to not do shit until the tank has aggro. For my pally it's conc, shield, hammer now go all out, for my druid it's target anything and swipe like hell until you have it all - never tanked it on my DK because I'm not a fan of DK tanking. As long as everyone tucks in to LoS the trash you're set.

Of course, there's always a retarded hunter or warlock that just has to peep out and then wonders why a mage or rifleman is aggro'd on them... fuck em.

For me, I have the kill order macro'd into party chat: Mercenary -> Priest -> Soldiers -> Mage -> Rifleman. Merc is the most dangerous and needs to go down fast - always. Mage is always second last so that you take the copy down before the next wave/boss. Rifleman fire's everywhere at random so leave him to last.

I miss H-Mech/Bot/Arcatraz in fact fuck it - at least the BC instances were fun and required CC/thought. God I hope Cata goes backk to that formula.

BTW: Ban fucking recount - I'm so sick of e-peening DPS wondering why they faceplant before the tank even got a hit on a mob.

[Chimpy]

I have been against real-time "DPS meters" since vanilla as it makes people act like tards and worry about their position on the list instead of the important thing: killing the mob.

I give a little bit of leeway to stuff like WWS because it could be useful in seeing what numbers were after the fact, but none of those tools ever look at context. Our guild in BC was so anti-hunter because "I don't know why our hunters don't do DPS like we see on other guilds' WWS" and I said to the leaders one day: "Well, those guilds with the 2 hunters at the top on every boss fight? They actually stacked a group for their hunters, unlike you who put them in with the "off" caster group with a spriest and a mage instead of having a feral druid and a shaman dropping grace of air like they should."

[Selby]

I have been against real-time "DPS meters" since vanilla as it makes people act like tards and worry about their position on the list instead of the important thing: killing the mob.

They do have their purpose though, they allow you to see who is doing what kind of numbers and whether you even stand a chance on an encounter.  Take any raid where you are reaching the boss enrage timer.  This is a bad situation and you need to find out why.  If some dumbass is being an idiot and faceplanting himself 30s in to the fight, it's obvious.  If someone's rotation, gear, or spec is bad and their DPS is sitting in the 1000-1500 window, well you can at least try and address it in real time rather than "okay guys, let's give it a little more this next time!" for 5-6 tries until people get tired and quit.

I did ToC-10 the other night with that same failtank I described earlier (I was healing).  He kept taunting the Magnataur off of the other tank and made him taunt immune, allowing our other tank to get 7 stacks of impale before doofy could steal the boss back.  And then during the worms, he taunts and yanks aggro off of the other tank and changes positions to move the worm RIGHT to the center of the room for instant spew on half the raid (aka 3-4 people die).  Not even going to get into the yeti and his aggro yanking.  Apparently this dude has a complete hard-on for the aggro meter and HAS to be #1 otherwise he isn't doing his job and doesn't understand why we are pissed about it.  That may work in a heroic, but that shit doesn't fly in a raid.  I told the guild leader if he joins a raid I am in, I leave said raid from now on.

[SurfD]

I did ToC-10 the other night with that same failtank I described earlier (I was healing).  He kept taunting the Magnataur off of the other tank and made him taunt immune, allowing our other tank to get 7 stacks of impale before doofy could steal the boss back.  And then during the worms, he taunts and yanks aggro off of the other tank and changes positions to move the worm RIGHT to the center of the room for instant spew on half the raid (aka 3-4 people die).  Not even going to get into the yeti and his aggro yanking.  Apparently this dude has a complete hard-on for the aggro meter and HAS to be #1 otherwise he isn't doing his job and doesn't understand why we are pissed about it.  That may work in a heroic, but that shit doesn't fly in a raid.  I told the guild leader if he joins a raid I am in, I leave said raid from now on.

Sounds like that tank is in DIRE need of a good Verbal Ass Kicking.  If the dumbfuck is too stupid to even attempt to understand how raid mechanics work, they need to bitch him the hell out, and then bench his ass untill his team play improves.

Unfortunately, It seems that those guys need tanks or something, so chances are you are stuck with captain clusterfuck.

[Sheepherder]

EDIT: Also, I like gauntlets as a tank, nyah!

They would be a lot better if every new spawn inherited some threat from the last mob killed, or they were scripted to start at a few thousand threat on the tank, or if other tanks had the same ability to pull as Paladins, or if you could recruit your plate DPS as viable off-tanks, or if kiting or stunlocking could be utilized.

[Sjofn]

I have a paladin tank, but I don't play her ever. Most of my tanking this time around was as a DK (who can handle HoR type events fine) and a druid (who sucks at casters but is otherwise fine).

Honestly I'm mostly tired of the "groups of three to five standing around waiting for you to pull them" thing. I prefer waves and gauntlets to that by about a billion. I also thought the Ulduar trash was awesome (well, not really the Hodir or Freya trash but go with me here, since my issue with that stuff was just the amount of it) because they had stuff to vaguely challenge you instead of being another goddamn boring AE-fest like Naxx.

[Selby]

Unfortunately, It seems that those guys need tanks or something, so chances are you are stuck with captain clusterfuck.

We have like 5 tanks in the guild, but apparently this guy wants gear or something so every time I end up in a raid he's one of the tanks despite my misgivings.  Since one raid leader is all about "fun 1st, progression 2nd, gear 3rd" they won't say anything to him about his ass sucking skills.  And the other raid leader was just too mad and then took it out on me and another guy for voicing our concerns about why we wiped 6 times without a change of strategy.

[FatuousTwat]

You and probably around 85% of manginas with owl pets. 

I thought I was being original. 

I named mine Woodsy!

[Lastwolf]

H-HoR is one of the few challenging instances left in the game. Tanking it is fun if you are def capped - otherwise you shouldn't be in there. It also requires DPS to not do shit until the tank has aggro. For my pally it's conc, shield, hammer now go all out, for my druid it's target anything and swipe like hell until you have it all - never tanked it on my DK because I'm not a fan of DK tanking. As long as everyone tucks in to LoS the trash you're set.

Of course, there's always a retarded hunter or warlock that just has to peep out and then wonders why a mage or rifleman is aggro'd on them... fuck em.

For me, I have the kill order macro'd into party chat: Mercenary -> Priest -> Soldiers -> Mage -> Rifleman. Merc is the most dangerous and needs to go down fast - always. Mage is always second last so that you take the copy down before the next wave/boss. Rifleman fire's everywhere at random so leave him to last.

I miss H-Mech/Bot/Arcatraz in fact fuck it - at least the BC instances were fun and required CC/thought. God I hope Cata goes backk to that formula.

BTW: Ban fucking recount - I'm so sick of e-peening DPS wondering why they faceplant before the tank even got a hit on a mob.

I haven't got up to Heroic Level instances yet but I had to crowd control in normals(it was doable without but, hard to heal), so there's a good chance that heroics will require that CC.

I find recount to be an invaluable tool as a raid leader, especially in tight enrage timer fights, If I know that we need to get a net dps of 100k (example pulled out of my ass) to kill the boss before he starts one shotting shit and we're pulling 98k then we need to just turn it up a notch, blow some CD's at right time etc, if we're only doing 50k, I need to pack it up for the night, cause we either severally under gear the fight or you know, suck. Recount is just a tool, it's up to the user what they do with it, I've had my fair share of slobbering DPS-junkies that refuse to fucking move from fire because it will mess up their 'rotations' and it's the healers job to keep them alive. But, for now at least, mana is a finite resource, the time of spam 1 turbo efficient heal forever is certainly gone and I can't afford to be bailing them out all the time, so hopefully we will see a culture adjustment.

[Ironwood]

Unfortunately, It seems that those guys need tanks or something, so chances are you are stuck with captain clusterfuck.

We have like 5 tanks in the guild, but apparently this guy wants gear or something so every time I end up in a raid he's one of the tanks despite my misgivings.  Since one raid leader is all about "fun 1st, progression 2nd, gear 3rd" they won't say anything to him about his ass sucking skills.  And the other raid leader was just too mad and then took it out on me and another guy for voicing our concerns about why we wiped 6 times without a change of strategy.

That makes no sense;  Getting FUCKED and watching an ASSHOLE is fun for precisely no-one save perhaps a porn star.  And he's getting paid.

Man the Fuck Up and have a word with him yourself.