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Topic: Bad Groups (Read 577983 times)
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Sheepherder
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5192
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Use focus on yourself, then cast maul on the target of target of your focus, checking that it exists and can be harmed.
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Ironwood
Terracotta Army
Posts: 28240
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Well, it works great for bear raid tanks (dont see why it wouldnt work for Warrior Raid tanks either). Out in PvP / some heroics, it can lead to rage starvation however, since you are constantly using rage for maul and not doing many normal attacks to get it back.
For warriors, it is generally a bad idea for a couple reasons. - Because it can cause rage starvation occasionally, particularly early in pulls (warrior rage income is a little more spiky than bears largely because we don't have your crit-makes-rage feedback loop - a bear swiping a large pack of mobs with a decent crit rate is essentially doing it for free or actually gaining rage by hitting swipe, for example - the rage from shield spec makes up part of the difference but not all) - Because it interferes with when you need to hit cleave instead - Tanking warriors typically have a much faster attack speed than bears so in situations when your white swing time is faster than the 1.5 seconds of the GCD (not unusual with fast tanking weapons and raid haste buffs like windfury) you will miss possible heroic strike opportunities if you're only sending a HS macro every 1.5 seconds when you use one of your abilities that is on the GCD. This is not a problem for bears because their base attack speed is 2.5 seconds I think. One common solution for warriors is to bind HS to the mousewheel and just spin that sucker like crazy when rage allows, instead of macroing it.  Rubbish.
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"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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Ingmar
Terracotta Army
Posts: 19280
Auto Assault Affectionado
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One common solution for warriors is to bind HS to the mousewheel and just spin that sucker like crazy when rage allows, instead of macroing it.
Then how do you zoom out? I don't use it because I like to change my camera zoom all the time personally but it is what a lot of raiding warriors do. I personally just mash the button like crazy while doing everything else.
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The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT. Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
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Minvaren
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1676
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After a couple weeks and some experience under the belt with regs, I tried Heroic VH again on a whim. Insta-queue. Pop in instance, Healer (I think) notes "Hmmm, squishy tank." I shrug and reply, "gotta gear up somehow." First 3 pulls go ok, except some a hunter pet-tanks one of the 3 mobs that split coming down the ramp. Warning bells are going off. First boss pops. It's Xevozz, AGAIN. I laugh and say, "kite him along the balcony, check." 3 people reply "yep." Then the hunter's pet grabs him, so the hunter kites him up and across the balcony with me in hot pursuit, back down into the orbs (I think it was still the first set), enrage, party wipes. "Wow, what a crappy tank" emerges from the peanut gallery. Drop group, went and got blacksmithing to 450 instead.  Now I just need some Crusader Orbs to make the ICC patterns I bought...
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"There are many things of which a wise man might wish to remain ignorant." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Rasix
Moderator
Posts: 15024
I am the harbinger of your doom!
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Rankwatch is horrible. It just makes me angry but at the same time there's no going back. I just wish I didn't know that the underperforming, undergeared DPS hasn't updated his hotbars or in most cases hasn't bothered to buy his spells for the last few levels. "I can't afford it" "After I vote kick you, do some dailies." And vote kicking is becoming pretty routine, sadly. Shaming them out tends to work also. I should really just have rankwatch display to party. 
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-Rasix
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Sheepherder
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5192
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What?
Are they the sort that ignores empty gem slots too?
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Sjofn
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8286
Truckasaurus Hands
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I am ashamed to admit that very very occassionally, I plum forget to buy a new gem for my upgrade. I'm pretty sure I'm using the right rank of everything though. 
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God Save the Horn Players
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WindupAtheist
Army of One
Posts: 7028
Badicalthon
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I don't consider anything fit to wear until it's been gemmed and enchanted.
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"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig." -- Schild "Yeah, it's pretty awesome." -- Me
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Merusk
Terracotta Army
Posts: 27449
Badge Whore
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I got to be the bad tank yesterday. Old Kingdom popped up and I was thinking "Hey, not the easiest, but not bad." Right away I can tell it's a bad scene because they're already past the first few pulls.
"Did the Tank go LD or just quit out?" Shaman Healer: "He was an dickwad" DPS1: "LolzI<3u urr hott" DPS2: "Thx u! lolol" Dps3 is silent.
Shit, I think. Twits, I can see why the tank left. Well let's see where this goes, it's only time and fake gold. "Well I have a sandy vag, but I'll try to work around it." DPS1: Lol can I see it DPS2: No!
Shaman was 245+ so I'm thinking, ok at least I won't die, right? Second thing he says is, "So which one of you undergeared people is the tank." Fuuuuuuck.
I've already written this one off as a loss. There's no way this is getting completed. I know this already and there's still 13 mins on my timer. "I am, and if you don't like it leave and requeue. Mine are instant, so I don't care." "So are mine as healer." Great, a dick and into oneupsmanship.
First few pulls, the guy gets some adds on him because he refuses to move his ass into my consecrates, as if his totem forest is some sort of protective barrier. I'm going OOM every pull, and come close to dying a few times. I figure he's used to not fucking healing at all. He inspects me and starts talking shit. "Wtf, really?" Linking to my trinket, which is still figurine of the colossus. "Yes, I don't spend all day in game. It'll get upgraded when I get badges or a drop."
First boss comes, we wipe. I'm not getting heals, dps is suckage and ALSO not getting heals and doesn't switch and once again, mr Shaman is too good to walk away from his totems. I know I could have gone and tossed a few concs. to pick them up, but I simply didn't care. Shaman starts talking more shit. "Hey tank, how about you start, y'know, tanking." My reply is simply "Oh noes, my purplez!" We finally down the boss because I decide to cater to the jerk and pull it over. Takes 3:00, but we down him. Timer comes up right after the next pull and they votekick me. I'm a bad tank! Oh noes.
I queue up after repairing. (My bill was 12g. I know the shaman had at least as much. It makes me giggle.) Instant pop, CoS. Goes without a hitch, I get a new shield.
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The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
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kildorn
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5014
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Rankwatch is horrible. It just makes me angry but at the same time there's no going back. I just wish I didn't know that the underperforming, undergeared DPS hasn't updated his hotbars or in most cases hasn't bothered to buy his spells for the last few levels. "I can't afford it" "After I vote kick you, do some dailies." And vote kicking is becoming pretty routine, sadly. Shaming them out tends to work also. I should really just have rankwatch display to party.  I was mortified in a pug the other day when shit went really badly (looooooow geared tank, high geared dps, so naturally things went clusterfuck the first real AE pull) I deathcoiled something on me because the tank looked like he was too busy to take it off me (and it was at 5%, DC and two nukes should do it) I got a rankwatch tell saying I'd used a low rank deathcoil and ohgod please don't do that. Yeah, this spec had put DC on a bar when I'd first picked it up, and never updated with the new ranks when I hit 80. I'd just never really had an excuse to use it where the damage it did was my primary concern before. edit: I will say, I had a lot of lower geared tanks yesterday (26-28k hp buffed), but with our guild low geared tank we did forge of souls relatively painlessly. On the DPS side, just expect a shit pull before they get their heads around exactly how to handle threat with you. In our case with the guild tank, we pretty much switched to assist train burning, because he could hold single target threat great, he just lacked enough gear to keep AE threat from two casters.
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« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 05:28:50 AM by kildorn »
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Selby
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2963
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Rankwatch is horrible. It just makes me angry but at the same time there's no going back. I just wish I didn't know that the underperforming, undergeared DPS hasn't updated his hotbars or in most cases hasn't bothered to buy his spells for the last few levels. "I can't afford it" "After I vote kick you, do some dailies." And vote kicking is becoming pretty routine, sadly. Shaming them out tends to work also. I should really just have rankwatch display to party.  My UI for some reason keeps putting lower ranks on my bars for my shaman, even though I've change them multiple times. Seems to happen after a patch for some reason or randomly after a talent switch. I have gotten into the habit of checking after logging on because I've been told to GTFO of multiple groups without them caring that my UI fucked up yet again. It's ALWAYS that I'm a shitty player who doesn't know how to play rather than a UI issue. edit: I will say, I had a lot of lower geared tanks yesterday (26-28k hp buffed), but with our guild low geared tank we did forge of souls relatively painlessly. On the DPS side, just expect a shit pull before they get their heads around exactly how to handle threat with you. In our case with the guild tank, we pretty much switched to assist train burning, because he could hold single target threat great, he just lacked enough gear to keep AE threat from two casters.
I've gotten into groups as a healer after the healer bailed (on like Nexus or CoS) because the tank only had 29k HP (they said the direct quote was "under 30k? No way you can tank this, you are undergeared" and left). I mean seriously, people had less than that when these were new, what's the big deal? The tank did just fine in those instances too, granted I had to work a little harder but sheesh, it beats being bored to death because no one takes any damage. I tanked Blood Furnace for the first time yesterday and it was loads of... fun? Things went mostly well, but some DPS went right over and face pulled on the last pull before the boss the group I was trying to avoid (I watched him walk right over and start attacking the mobs). Getting casters to line up and focus on me is a pain with 4 felguards charging the entire party (or me back to back).
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« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 06:36:59 AM by Selby »
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Zetor
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3269
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My best "lol 26k hp tank" experience was just 2 days ago... it was almost a full-guild H-HOR run with me (DK in 232/245 gear), a prot pally who is usually ret (29k hp with the 5% buff and sanc... mostly 200/219 gear), a resto shaman (232/245) and a mage (219/232 gear). The pug was a warrior with the astral walker title and crazy uber gear. When we entered the instance, he was all "oh hell no you aren't geared enough to tank this" to the pally. We finish the first 5 waves + boss with no problems, except both me and the shaman die on the last fear just when Falric keels over. Prot pally was all OOM too, so he only had enough time to res the healer, but not me (I was leading dps, too), and the next 5 waves start. I was watching the HP/mana bars as a ghost, the tank's hp bar / healer's mana bar were going yo-yo up and down like crazy. Long story short, they 4-manned the last 5 waves + Marwyn easily, rezzed me, and the pally did the obligatory "man, what a crappy tank" remark. Of course the next note from the warrior was "wtf pallies are so f'in overpowered". I'm not sure if this story has a moral, or anything. Buff prot pallies! 
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« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 06:57:49 AM by Zetor »
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El Gallo
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2213
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One common solution for warriors is to bind HS to the mousewheel and just spin that sucker like crazy when rage allows, instead of macroing it.
Then how do you zoom out? You rebind zoom out. I use shift+wheel.
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This post makes me want to squeeze into my badass red jeans.
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Draegan
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10043
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So I've been running with my 80 DK now and given up on my 74 Warrior because I don't feel like leveling again.
I've grinded out about 120 badges so far and I havn't had a bad group yet. The only bad groups I'm getting are ones that don't move fast (which isn't bad at all).
I've got about a 4000-4100 gear score and I don't think that's too bad but I'm still embarrassed about my green trinket. I think I'm going to start running ICC/TOC 5 mans for drops rather than the random dungeon finder for an extra 2 badges.
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Rasix
Moderator
Posts: 15024
I am the harbinger of your doom!
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Rankwatch is horrible. It just makes me angry but at the same time there's no going back. I just wish I didn't know that the underperforming, undergeared DPS hasn't updated his hotbars or in most cases hasn't bothered to buy his spells for the last few levels. "I can't afford it" "After I vote kick you, do some dailies." And vote kicking is becoming pretty routine, sadly. Shaming them out tends to work also. I should really just have rankwatch display to party.  My UI for some reason keeps putting lower ranks on my bars for my shaman, even though I've change them multiple times. Seems to happen after a patch for some reason or randomly after a talent switch. I have gotten into the habit of checking after logging on because I've been told to GTFO of multiple groups without them caring that my UI fucked up yet again. It's ALWAYS that I'm a shitty player who doesn't know how to play rather than a UI issue. Heh, your UI isn't your party's responsibility. I'm sure you're a fine player but the chucklefucks I'm referring to ALSO tend to be joining the heroics with terrible gear and are pulling auto-attack level DPS. It's an easy to use bad player radar, because now it seems about 50% of the crap DPS set off rankwatch with just about ever ability they use. Most people, it's only one spell and usually a buff at that. I told a warlock yesterday that their fel armor was downlevel, because if I was on my warlock, I'd want to know. Heh, one frustrating case was a hunter that was somewhat poorly geared/used volley and managed 1800 dps for the instance but every single goddamn ability was downlevel. 1800 in a heroic isn't enough remotely low enough to get me grumbling, but goddamn. I had a surprisingly good group in HHOS yesterday. I go in (healing nowadays) and the tank is fine, there's a high DPS rogue, and 2 really low gear scored dps (hunter/warrior). I look at their gear and it's a lot of heirlooms, quest gear, and boe blues. So, not that bad considering. Rogue drops before we start pulling and we get an OK geared warlock. Well, it went off without a hitch and we manage to breeze through without only a single death on Maiden. DPS pulls 3K (lol volley), 2.5K and 2K for the hunter, lock and warrior respectively. They all did what they needed to do fine and I even got a "nice healing" comment (probably because everyone of them got the black orb debuff on the event). What?
Are they the sort that ignores empty gem slots too?
It's mostly the quest greens/spell plate DK/"DPS like I'm soloing" crowd. You'd be lucky to see gem slots on the gear. No one ever fesses up to it being a mistake they're using downlevel abilities, and if they do it's just an "I'm too poor". What the hell do these people do with the money they get from leveling?
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-Rasix
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proudft
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1228
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So I've been running with my 80 DK now and given up on my 74 Warrior because I don't feel like leveling again.
I've grinded out about 120 badges so far and I havn't had a bad group yet. The only bad groups I'm getting are ones that don't move fast (which isn't bad at all).
Well, part of it is as that since you're queuing as a DK, you get fewer DKs. 
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Rasix
Moderator
Posts: 15024
I am the harbinger of your doom!
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Heh, we tend to call our Pally tank, shaman healer, DK/druid dps guild group "escort a warlock". All we ever seem to get are warlocks with the odd hunter or mage thrown in. But it's a warlock 75% of the time.
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-Rasix
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Jayce
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2647
Diluted Fool
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No one ever fesses up to it being a mistake they're using downlevel abilities, and if they do it's just an "I'm too poor". What the hell do these people do with the money they get from leveling?
Seriously, this. I made 400g from Sholazar quests on my 80 in one night. And I think that was before selling the greens and leather I skinned. I dropped 4k for epic flying and I'm about halfway back already with light questing and having to gem/enchant the occasional piece of new gear.
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Witty banter not included.
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Draegan
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10043
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I don't see how DK's do badly though in groups. I watch tv and spam things out of rotation and still hit 2500-3200 dps depending on the fight.
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brellium
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1296
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I've run into my share of horribad group, but it seems to be a rare circumstance (more common however on my tree).
My worst thusfar would be on my tree with a decently geared protpally, a mage, dk, and hunter.
The pally and myself spent the whole run amazed at the fact that the hunter and dk would alternate between not being able to pull 500 dps.
The guild's experiance so far has been mixed, some random amusment by lfging as dps and then equiping level 20 gear in a heroic which is always worth some laughs.
The best however was a run where the guild picked up 2 dps, runing the tank, healer and dps as mains. One of the pugs mentioned that the healer would probably do better with healbot, not knowing the group was in rocking about 5600 gs and could three man the instance.
WoW has been amusing for the last three/four months I've been back.
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"One must see in every human being only that which is worthy of praise. When this is done, one can be a friend to the whole human race. If, however, we look at people from the standpoint of their faults, then being a friend to them is a formidable task." —‘Abdu’l-Bahá
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Soulflame
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6487
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Here's how do DK wrong!800 DPS in HUP is pro. I managed to outdo him the entire instance, and was #2 on far too many fights... as a tree in non-tree form.
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Hutch
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1893
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So I did some random dungeons last night on my shabbily-geared warlock. This is a toon that I have very rarely played in any group situations, so I haven't figured out what to do in 5-mans to keep my dps up. Much less in raids. So, I'm bad skilled, and bad geared. I get into a group in OK. Before we reach the first boss, we've wiped four times. The bear "tank" was just awful at tanking. I don't look at other peoples' gear, so I don't know if he was undergeared or just bad. The healer was doing their best, but between the tank being bad, and the other two dps running around body-pulling patrols, we were in a bad way. After the last wipe, these tools vote-kicked me because I had a low gear score. This would have been more hurtful if I hadn't been planning to drop the group anyway. So I escape the dungeon, heal up, and before I go back to farming air crystals, I do a little /recount show. I was, at roughly 1100 dps, doing the highest overall dps in that dungeon run. And they vote-kicked me for having bad gear. It's like they were doing me a favor 
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Plant yourself like a tree Haven't you noticed? We've been sharing our culture with you all morning. The sun will shine on us again, brother
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Rasix
Moderator
Posts: 15024
I am the harbinger of your doom!
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OK can have a lot of nasty spike damage if everyone's being a retard. Some of it is particularly difficult to heal through. Had a group last night, while not horrible, liked to stand in the flamestrikes, split DPS, and the hunter moved around a lot pulling additional trash packs. Our lone interupter didn't seem intent on doing that, just blasting away with his superbad 1K frost DPS. I had to actually pay attention.
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« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 01:53:09 PM by Rasix »
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-Rasix
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K9
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7441
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OK and HoR are the only two heroics where either of my 5200 GS healers loose people periodically. The common cause here is flamestrikes. I can understand this to a degree as the graphic is one of the least obvious in the game, but it is also the case that mob packs who flamestrike often also toss out a lot of other assorted magic damage which is hard to mitigate. The packs after PoS are like this too actually, on reflection.
Did HHoR with three guildies (need the offhand, finally saw it and lost it today to a 1900DPS boomkin in resto gear :(), we picked up a random ret to round out the group. We take up places in the entrance, ret hoons off to Falric's alcove.
Ret: "Hey guys, come here" Us: "No :)"
Ret stays there until the first wave comes and then joins us at the entrance
Ret: "Hey have you guys done this instance before"
(We're all in a mix of ToC, ToGC and ICC gear)
Us: "More than you'd believe"
Ret: "I have this strategy though!"
Us: "It's fine, we have this"
I'm not sure if we were being dickish, he seemed like a nice enough guy, and while not stellar, wasn't awful DPS either. He just couldn't seem to grasp that a coordinated and well played group could dominate the trash waves with little risk.
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I love the smell of facepalm in the morning
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WindupAtheist
Army of One
Posts: 7028
Badicalthon
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More than once lately I've had some Overconfident Supertank in uber raid gear land in UK and immediately start running around grabbing everything like it's Deadmines. The healer goes "WTFFFFFF" and we wipe by the time we reach the room with all the drakes. Fucking idiots.
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"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig." -- Schild "Yeah, it's pretty awesome." -- Me
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Selby
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2963
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Fucking idiots.
Seriously. At least TELL ME when you are planning to do this. My tree? Don't care, can keep up with HoTs from afar and the fact that most of my spells are insta-casts. Priest? Eh, more work, but can be doable with shields and renew. My shammy? Fuck I have to stop to cast heals and only have one crappy HoT, so yeah, running away from me while taking major damage IS a problem for you. My biggest concern is, seriously people, unless we KNOW each other, how do you know any of us don't suck or have a horrible connection? Assuming we all can chain pull 40 mobs at once and keep up without issues is a pretty big gamble.
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Azuredream
Terracotta Army
Posts: 912
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Do we have an 'awesome group' thread? I was doing SFK on my lowbie mage, and inexplicably half-way through the instance the tank and healer both drop (they were both in the same guild, must've had to go or something), but the 3 of us who are left (hunter, rogue, and me) are all decked out in heirlooms so we plow on anyways. Completed the whole rest of the instance without a single death. There was no real tank, the mobs just didn't hit hard enough to kill anyone before we brought them all down. Moral: low level instances are easy, or heirlooms are overpowered.
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The Lord of the Land approaches..
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Merusk
Terracotta Army
Posts: 27449
Badge Whore
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Heirlooms are ridiculously overpowered at low levels.
At BC content they're still nice, but not over the top. Now that I'm hitting WOTLK content, I'm seriously considering replacing my weapons, because stuff out of the instances is a lot better. My daggers are 97DPS, but the first level of weapons from Nexus/ UK are 101 dps and better balanced statwise. With the Random Dungeon tool, it's not like I have to stop questing to get a group in either of them. The shoulders and chest are the only must haves at this point for the xp increases.
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The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
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Cadaverine
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1655
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Not to derail this exciting thread, but for those that have 'em, does the heirloom gear make that much of a difference in the 1-60 grind that it's worth farming the shards? I've been in WG all of once, and it seemed a clusterfuck, so I just gather them incidentally from whenever the Alliance has WG.
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Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.
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Selby
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2963
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Not to derail this exciting thread, but for those that have 'em, does the heirloom gear make that much of a difference in the 1-60 grind that it's worth farming the shards? Yes. I finished with the old world at Un'goro and went to Outlands on my latest character. Usually I have to suck it up until Winterspring and Felwood are done. And don't farm shards, farm heroics for 120 badges or so and be done with it. If you choose to, it takes ~2 afternoons of hefty heroic running.
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Merusk
Terracotta Army
Posts: 27449
Badge Whore
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The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
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Jayce
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2647
Diluted Fool
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I just got Rankwatch and ran with it for the first time this morning. It fired off twice, once on a warlock using chaos bolt 1 and once on another, I can't remember which class. Whatever it was was rank 4 out of 8. This group was otherwise perfectly serviceable.
Downranking is more widespread than I thought!
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Witty banter not included.
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Dren
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2419
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So you are saying there are players either too lazy or too cheap to buy skills as they level to 80? Yet, they care enough about those characters to take them through random heroics? I'm having a hard time understanding that mindset.
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AcidCat
Terracotta Army
Posts: 919
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No it's some kind of bug with dual spec. Like if you upgrade the spells while in one spec, your spells in your toolbar on the other spec don't upgrade to the next level automatically like they should. I had done a few heroics on my freshly 80 Druid before someone pointed out two of my spells weren't the proper rank.
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Rasix
Moderator
Posts: 15024
I am the harbinger of your doom!
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Yah, I think most of it is people that use one spec for leveling for a while then decide to group with their old spec. I had this happen a lot on my warlock where my "elite" killing demo spec often had spells one or two ranks below. Most folks may not notice this until someone points it out to them or they think something is off about their damage/healing/threat. On my shaman, my old resto spec totem bars had a downrank SoE on them, which I'm pretty sure was an artifact of having all spell ranks shown and simply dragging the wrong spell to the bar; rankwatch caught this for me. The dual spec thing and honest mistakes make up a majority of the rankwatch notifications.
The rest? Bads. Lazy and cheap. The kind that somehow make it to 80 flat broke yet with no visible bought item upgrades.
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-Rasix
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