Bad Groups

[Cadaverine]

We give priority to main armour type, and main weapon type (ranged for hunters, melee for melee), then spec, then offspec.

Does anyone here play a rogue?

I have a 77 rogue on Anvilmar, Horde side.  I haven't been playing him as much lately, because finding a group as a rogue is all but impossible.

[Khaldun]

We give priority to main armour type, and main weapon type (ranged for hunters, melee for melee), then spec, then offspec.

Does anyone here play a rogue?

Yup. Still play a rogue as my main. It's kind of eerie how few high-level rogues I see now, especially in PUGs.

[Merusk]

There's a lot fewer hunters, too.  Both classes were the major rerollers for DKs.

[Dren]

I don't understand that.  Our main rogue that goes on our 25 man raids consistently ranks in the top 5 for DPS and many times tops it.  I know he's not gear capped either.

[Jack9]

Hunters still do ridiculous damage and have been outdamaging rogues since before Wrath. People who reroll away from hunters for DK dps were probably bad hunters, will be bad dks, and are stupid for trading a relatively uncommon class for the rogue 2.0 (DK). Everyone remembers how common rogues used to be.

[Ingmar]

Both those classes, especially hunters, attracted a LOT of younger players. Every single PUG I ran pre-DKs, if there was a kid in vent, he was playing a hunter. Not coincidentally a lot of those kids switched to DK, to the point where I can almost guarantee if there's a kid in vent, he's playing a DK.

[proudft]

My main dude is a rogue, and I also see a lot fewer level 80 rogues out there lately.   Often I'm the only one in the 25 vault.  <3

My completely unfounded opinion is that a lot of them are now playing dual-wielding DKs.

It might be unrelated, but I had a hard time as a new 80 keeping up with the other dps classes in heroics & raids.   I'm ok now, but maybe that broke the spirit of the other rogues, I dunno.

[kildorn]

Hunters still do ridiculous damage and have been outdamaging rogues since before Wrath. People who reroll away from hunters for DK dps were probably bad hunters, will be bad dks, and are stupid for trading a relatively uncommon class for the rogue 2.0 (DK). Everyone remembers how common rogues used to be.

Hunter rerolls were for pvp for the most part. They demolished DPS charts, but a few classes could simply destroy them in pvp without blinking.

Rogues always wanted a reason to reroll, and their horrible wrath damage output was a good one. But rogue forums have always been a flood of "waaah if you let dps warriors come near our dps we should all reroll warriors because then we'd have plate and waaaah"

[Paelos]

Rogues don't make sense as a class in regards to raiding. They never really have. It's a melee dps class with shitty armor that has stealth abilities. Except stealth in raiding is absolutely pointless. They don't offer buffs, they don't really offer much utility. They won't have any kind of decent switch with the offer of dual specs. They would have to top the charts in dps because it's their only function, which in my opinion is a pretty shitty one. Every other class has something outside of their dps to offer a raid.

EDIT: I guess my point is that if they keep adding classes to this game, which I hope they don't, rogues are going to get pushed out of raids until they decide to give them something else as a function. That's been the problem since MC though, so outside of a gimmick like the BWL suppression room, it's unlikely.

[Ingmar]

Rogues don't make sense as a class in regards to raiding. They never really have. It's a melee dps class with shitty armor that has stealth abilities. Except stealth in raiding is absolutely pointless. They don't offer buffs, they don't really offer much utility. They won't have any kind of decent switch with the offer of dual specs. They would have to top the charts in dps because it's their only function, which in my opinion is a pretty shitty one. Every other class has something outside of their dps to offer a raid.

I think rogues bring a fair amount to the table, personally, especially in a post always-a-warrior-tank world. Sunder/Expose Armor is the single most important buff/debuff for physical dps that there is, and if you don't have a warrior you are going to need a rogue, unless for some reason you have a hunter with a worm pet. The debuff from master poisoner is nice if you don't have a ret pally (elementall shamans are rare), combat brings the 2% (soon to be 4%) physical damage increase which is only otherwise obtainable from arms warriors (lots of those around these days...). Subtlety brings basically nothing unique, but who specs that for pve anyway?

[Merusk]

Hunters still do ridiculous damage and have been outdamaging rogues since before Wrath. People who reroll away from hunters for DK dps were probably bad hunters, will be bad dks, and are stupid for trading a relatively uncommon class for the rogue 2.0 (DK). Everyone remembers how common rogues used to be.

Uncommon class?  The fuck?  Every 12th player on my server was a hunter and rogues were as common as mages.  I guess that's the difference between a pve and pvp server (Which I'm betting you're on.)  No reason for stealth on a pve server other than 'coolness' factor and the hunter was a much better farming/ soloing class.   

[Rasix]

Did a PUG Naxx 10 last night just because I wasn't saved yet and figured a few bosses were better than nothing.  They advertised for Plague quarter and of course when I get there Noth is already down and they're clearing trash to Heigan. 

They do a pretty terrible job on the easiest trash in the game and I'm already starting to dread Heigan.  Only one guy hasn't done it so this looks like it might not be so bad.  Well, people start dying right off the bat and at a fairly constant pace.  And then during the start of the first dance portion I end up hitting the dirt.  So, I check my log and I died to the disease not to bad dancing.  Turns out none of the melee died to the dancing but to the disease. At the end of it all, the only people that survive are people that can cure disease (shaman, priest, paladin) along with one druid healer and the tank.  A warlock died to disease while on the platform right in front of a shaman. 

Loatheb was pretty smooth and we had to 9 man it after waiting 10-20 minutes while the shaman was getting wife-owned and eventually had to bail. The gauntlet before was a bit of a mess when 8 of the raid ignored the warrior going in and only I went in with him 

Overall for 2 bosses and minimal trash it took an hour and a half with no wipes.    Then to top it off I lose the roll on Loatheb's trinket and the shoulders (I passed on Demise).

[Merusk]

Pugs don't cleanse/ abolish or drop appropriate totems. Ever.  This is just a given, but I have recount information to back it up.   One one guild run with ~10 pugs 2 of which were priests and 4 of which were druids the only Disease/ Poison removal and decursing done was by 3 of my guild mates.   

[kildorn]

Don't get me started on totem dropping, oh do I have stories <3

[Rasix]

Bad thing is that the raid leader/main tank didn't say a thing about it.  2 paladins, a shaman and a priest.  One of the paladins, the shaman, priest and MT were from the same guild.   A base install of GRID will even show that disease. 

[Ingmar]

Bad thing is that the raid leader/main tank didn't say a thing about it.  2 paladins, a shaman and a priest.  One of the paladins, the shaman, priest and MT were from the same guild.   A base install of GRID will even show that disease. 

Yeah the raid leader needs to be on the ball, especially in a PUG, to get shamans into the right groups for totem coverage and to tell them when they need to drop specific important totems for a given fight. My shamans are probably sick of me reminding them to drop poison cleansing in the MT group for Maex or whatever, but too bad!

[Selby]

My shamans are probably sick of me reminding them to drop poison cleansing in the MT group for Maex or whatever, but too bad!

There is really no excuse for not dropping totems in fights that need them.  Poison\disease cleansing totems make a world of difference in Naxx (the last boss of the spider wing practically requires poison cleansing otherwise it's not pretty) and pretty much every raid where debuffing occurs through poison or disease.  Like in MC on the one boss where mages and druids were expected to do NOTHING but decurse people, otherwise everyone dies.

[Khaldun]

I do find that even with pretty good gear that a lot of the times the best I can do is be second or third on the DPS charts. Which is fine, but considering that my raid utility is mostly measured in very subtle terms (tricks of the trade, savage combat, expose armor), at my gear level (and if I can be immodest for a moment, reasonably high skill level), I should really stand out from the rest of the DPS classes because every single other DPS class brings something overwhelmingly desirable to a raid--warlock mints and summoning, shadow priest buffage of +hit plus the occasional special utility of MC, hunter mark, and so on.

Or there should be parts of instances where having a stealth class is overwhelmingly useful in some respect.

[Hindenburg]

I do find that even with pretty good gear that a lot of the times the best I can do is be second or third on the DPS charts. Which is fine, but considering that my raid utility is mostly measured in very subtle terms (tricks of the trade, savage combat, expose armor), at my gear level (and if I can be immodest for a moment, reasonably high skill level), I should really stand out from the rest of the DPS classes because every single other DPS class brings something overwhelmingly desirable to a raid--warlock mints and summoning, shadow priest buffage of +hit plus the occasional special utility of MC, hunter mark, and so on.

Or there should be parts of instances where having a stealth class is overwhelmingly useful in some respect.

 

[Ingmar]

I do find that even with pretty good gear that a lot of the times the best I can do is be second or third on the DPS charts. Which is fine, but considering that my raid utility is mostly measured in very subtle terms (tricks of the trade, savage combat, expose armor), at my gear level (and if I can be immodest for a moment, reasonably high skill level), I should really stand out from the rest of the DPS classes because every single other DPS class brings something overwhelmingly desirable to a raid--warlock mints and summoning, shadow priest buffage of +hit plus the occasional special utility of MC, hunter mark, and so on.

Or there should be parts of instances where having a stealth class is overwhelmingly useful in some respect.

I should hope you are at least standing out from those shadow priests you mention, they are in a pretty bad place right now overall.

[proudft]

I do find that even with pretty good gear that a lot of the times the best I can do is be second or third on the DPS charts.

I was in a Naxx 25 I-was-the-PuG-in-the-guild-run run last week where that guild's rogue was over 4000 dps on bosses, and his overall average was like 3800.  He was in first place.   I was way down at like 11 or something with I think 2300 or so.

His spec (soon to be obsolete in 3.1 when Shiv can't crit): Combat Shiv.   The fact that I respecced the next day to that is a complete coincidence, I assure you!   I haven't had a decent try at it yet in action, we'll see.

[K9]

So, question for Rogues. Is there any reason why rogues should have priority on throwing weapons for PvE? I realise rogues probably prefer throwing weapons, but should the get explicit priority on them?

Especially in the case of rogues who do not PvP.

[proudft]

Deadly Throw only works with throwing weapons, but that is pretty much a PvP skill.  You might use it solo to catch a stray runner or something, but no, I don't see why rogues would have any priority over dps warriors or whatever.

[Kail]

Who else even equips them?  I'd call it a toss-up between rogues and warriors, unless it's got +str or +agi on it.

[Zetor]

I do find that even with pretty good gear that a lot of the times the best I can do is be second or third on the DPS charts. Which is fine, but considering that my raid utility is mostly measured in very subtle terms (tricks of the trade, savage combat, expose armor), at my gear level (and if I can be immodest for a moment, reasonably high skill level), I should really stand out from the rest of the DPS classes because every single other DPS class brings something overwhelmingly desirable to a raid--warlock mints and summoning, shadow priest buffage of +hit plus the occasional special utility of MC, hunter mark, and so on.

Or there should be parts of instances where having a stealth class is overwhelmingly useful in some respect.

"There was a disturbance in the WOW; as if millions of people got flashbacks of the BWL suppression room and were suddenly silenced."


-- Z.

[Sheepherder]

I do find that even with pretty good gear that a lot of the times the best I can do is be second or third on the DPS charts. Which is fine, but considering that my raid utility is mostly measured in very subtle terms (tricks of the trade, savage combat, expose armor), at my gear level (and if I can be immodest for a moment, reasonably high skill level), I should really stand out from the rest of the DPS classes because every single other DPS class brings something overwhelmingly desirable to a raid--warlock mints and summoning, shadow priest buffage of +hit plus the occasional special utility of MC, hunter mark, and so on.

Or there should be parts of instances where having a stealth class is overwhelmingly useful in some respect.

Here's you're niche: hit vanish and you don't pay 7g a wipe.

[Khaldun]

That would be sweet if vanish worked. Which it often doesn't.

Yeah, combat shiv is going bye-bye. I haven't tried HAT yet, but it's so dependent on being in a big raid with the right composition.

A PvE rogue is interested in a ranged weapon entirely for its stats, it doesn't matter what it is. You might use it to pull while farming, but it doesn't matter what it does. A PvP rogue wants a throwing weapon for Deadly Throw, though.

[K9]

Yeah, this is what we figured. We still had a rogue (w/ Nerubian Conqueror) ragequit because he wasn't given Spinning Fate over a fury warrior using some blue quest-reward gun. This pissed us off somewhat as he was one of our better DPS, but also as the only leather using phsyical DPS he was being showered with upgrades for every other slot.

Thanks for the clarification though.

[Paelos]

Yeah, this is what we figured. We still had a rogue (w/ Nerubian Conqueror) ragequit because he wasn't given Spinning Fate over a fury warrior using some blue quest-reward gun. This pissed us off somewhat as he was one of our better DPS, but also as the only leather using phsyical DPS he was being showered with upgrades for every other slot.

Thanks for the clarification though.

He's a jackass.

[gryeyes]

Rage quitting over something stupid like that is retarded. But with throwing weapons we always tended to give rogues priority over a fury warrior just because a fury warrior has a far wider of range of gear he can bid on. So unless its a far better upgrade for the warrior i would default it to the rogue.

[Jack9]

Uncommon class?  The fuck?

Good call on me being on PvP Tich. However, relatively, Hunter is still the less common class, compared to DK, across the board. While everyone and their mom probably has a rogue and hunter for what-have-you (stealth/chain) farming, an epic aoe farms better since wrath. This adds to the prevalence of DKs and the uselessness of most Hunters in raids. Currently PvE servers see a good 25% DKs (Across all servers level 55+) according to the wowcensus (for what it's worth).

[Gobbeldygook]

Currently PvE servers see a good 25% DKs (Across all servers level 55+) according to the wowcensus (for what it's worth).

Including all 55+ is just .  Class prevalence across all servers and on both factions at 80 only because that's all that matters for the purposes of this discussion:

Death knights: 15%
Druids: 10%
Hunters: 10%
Mages: 10%
Paladins: 13%
Priests: 9%
Rogues: 7%
Shaman: 9%
Warlocks: 7%
Warriors: 11%

PVE servers: -1% rogues, -1% druids, -1% shaman, +1% hunters, +some sub-1% increases to other classes
PVP servers: +1% rogues, -1% hunters

For the more graph-oriented, Warcraft Realms also sports graphs of what classes people spend their time playing. Link You can pretty clearly see that the classes most cannibalized by DKs were hunters and rogues.

[Jack9]

Class prevalence across all servers and on both factions at 80 only because that's all that matters for the purposes of this discussion

I disagree.

[Vash]

Class prevalence across all servers and on both factions at 80 only because that's all that matters for the purposes of this discussion

I disagree.

Only looking at 55+ skews things waaaay waaay high for DK's, because just about everyone who plays the game has made at least 1 DK alt, even if it's just to see their starting area and intro quests and the phasing there.

If your not going to look at 80 only, you may as well include 1-79 or the DK population will look retardedly high.

Only looking at level 80 characters is valid because a character leveled all the way to max level is either someone's main character or a semi-serious alt character in a majority of cases.  Sure there are a few hardcore types that will level an alt all the way to max just to be a farm bot, but that's such a rare case overall I'd say there aren't enough of them to be statistically significant when looking at population data.

[Merusk]

Death knights: 15%
Druids: 10%
Hunters: 10%
Mages: 10%
Paladins: 13%
Priests: 9%
Rogues: 7%
Shaman: 9%
Warlocks: 7%
Warriors: 11%

PVE servers: -1% rogues, -1% druids, -1% shaman, +1% hunters, +some sub-1% increases to other classes
PVP servers: +1% rogues, -1% hunters

I'd love to see a comparison to the % of classes at 70 in the BC era.  The pally numbers now look ridiculously high compared to then.