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Author Topic: TERA Online from Bluehole Studio  (Read 431492 times)
Rokal
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Posts: 1652


Reply #385 on: March 09, 2012, 09:43:34 AM

Do you get bored of bosses in other MMOs as soon as you understand the mechanics?
Err, yes?  I guess that would be why all the bosses have different mechanics.

Grinding out 10+ minute fights again and again just seems, tedious.  Most games are going the other way, short fights that are over quick and then you move on to something different.

Who said anything about doing them multiple times? My point was that knowing what a boss is going to do doesn't take away from experiencing the fight itself. You may know all of the BAM's tells 60 seconds into a fight, or you may know all of a bosses abilities in WoW/Rift/SWTOR before you even pull the boss, but it's still fun to execute the fight successfully yourself at least once.

TERA is banking and marketing their games based on "Action Combat".  In my opinion, their action combat is crap.  Like I said above, compare the feel of this combat system to other online games, or if you want to do specifically MMOs, compare it to DCUO of DDO.  Hell, you can even compare it to Darkover.  It's just not great.

Even if you want to allow for animation rooting attacks, then they need to clean up a lot of their animations.  There are plenty of attacks on a few of the classes that sort of just lag or finish slow after damage is done and you're just standing there for a split second not able to move or control your character.

The animation lock is very deliberate. It creates a higher risk/reward system in the game, because you can't just roll out of an attack if you start it at the wrong time. It works exactly the way it's designed to work, and it's certainly more interesting than action games where playing poorly has little consequence. From my experience, you were able to move your character as soon as animations looked like they completed.
Margalis
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Posts: 12335


Reply #386 on: March 09, 2012, 09:26:46 PM


That's how most action games work.

Attacking not effecting movement at all is mostly a feature of jank PC games.

Have you played Tera?  Compare combat from this game to your average FPS or DCUO or DDO.  It feels shitty.

Yes.

Have you ever played an action game that wasn't mid-90's pc jank?

This is how PSO works, how Monster Hunter works, how Street Fighter works, how God of War works, how Bayonetta works, how Double Dragon works....

Sure, it's not how Die by the Sword and Bethesda games work. But that's what I mean by PC jank. Action game animations root you in place for a variety of good gameplay reasons. Games that don't lock you in place usually feel like FPS games with guns replaced by swords. (Skyrim hello)

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Kageru
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Reply #387 on: March 10, 2012, 01:01:57 AM


It's almost as if there is some reason Online, persistent, large player count games are different from single player console games....

Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf?
- Simond
Margalis
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Posts: 12335


Reply #388 on: March 10, 2012, 03:13:15 AM

It's almost as if there is some reason Online, persistent, large player count games are different from single player console games....

Um....in the context of this particular conversation that makes no sense.

Also Street Fighter is not single player. Neither is Castle Crashers, or Final Fight, or PSO, or Monster Hunter. Players being rooted during combat animations has nothing to do with player counts or persistence or being online. It's a design things that games with good combat typically do.

I get that it's not for everyone and that some people equate rooting with unresponsiveness, especially if they are used to PC games with combat based on FPS engines. But it seems a little silly to criticize a game that is going for action-style combat for adopting a design that most action combat games employ. And calling it half-twitch or whatever is just silly because the twitchiest 60 FPS fighting games play similarly.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
tmp
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POW! Right in the Kisser!


Reply #389 on: March 10, 2012, 08:23:24 AM

Games that don't lock you in place usually feel like FPS games with guns replaced by swords. (Skyrim hello)
Heck, even Skyrim has some of that, most notably with two-handers -- a swing will take a while and iirc you won't be able to just break it mid move.
Hoax
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l33t kiddie


Reply #390 on: March 11, 2012, 04:37:46 PM

Bottom line though, I played for less than two hours this beta weekend. I've completely stopped caring about this game because there just isn't enough distraction from the fact I'm grinding out boring content to get to the next segment of boring content. Each zone has one item set that drops every so often. The loot tables, as much as I enjoy the look of the loot on my character are just so fucking bland. The camps are so bland. The quests are so bland. The mob ai is so bland. None of it is trying to do anything other then move me along the track from level A to level Z with the most minimal amount of effort of Bluehole's part.

It got me to get excited enough to try it which makes it twice the game Star Wars is/was but that's the best compliment I can pay it. I had more fun in the Rift beta which at least produced a pair of really enjoyable world pvp nights but TERA is so fucking horrible at handling pvp that I'm actually annoyed I put characters on the pvp server. Any game where I wish I wasn't on a pvp server probably shouldn't even have pvp servers in the first place.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 04:40:10 PM by Hoax »

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
Zetleft
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Posts: 792


Reply #391 on: March 12, 2012, 06:57:32 AM

I can't stop reading this thread title as Butthole Studio.... that's all I got to say about that.
Mrbloodworth
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Reply #392 on: March 12, 2012, 07:03:44 AM

Your not alone there Zetleft.

Today's How-To: Scrambling a Thread to the Point of Incoherence in Only One Post with MrBloodworth . - schild
www.mrbloodworthproductions.com  www.amuletsbymerlin.com
Sky
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Posts: 32117

I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #393 on: March 12, 2012, 07:12:53 AM

I thought it was staffed by Asari.  DRILLING AND WOMANLINESS

Or smurfs  ACK!
zardoz
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Posts: 16


Reply #394 on: March 12, 2012, 10:16:58 AM

Well played DCUO only a couple of hours and never liked the combat system. Surprisingly, I like it with Tera.
Was in the last EU beta weekend and sneaked into the last NA beta. IMO the world looks beautiful in the same
way Rift does.

Right the quest are vanilla, only some of the main quest and dungeons have cutscenes and I don't know if this
is common in asia games but I found it interesting that you can turn in the repeatable quest multiple times
 at once, kill 30/10 and turn the quest 3 times in. Oh and this game needs aoe looting badly.

I don't care about pvp, bite me I was mildly interested in swtor pvp but not here. Yeah I know gw2.  awesome, for real

First 20lvls are way to easy for my taste. However if you make it through, fighting solo BAM(elite) mobs
are FUN. Killing them is challenging at last with green gear and no my zerker could kill them in less then
10min.  DRILLING AND MANLINESS Dungeon was nice but nothing special.


Overall I guess full box price is ok, full subscription fee not so much. Feels more like a f2p game in the long run (well this days within 1 year).................



*shrug Got another beta key from a german site for the next EU beta event. Time enough to test some other classes...
Draegan
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Posts: 10043


Reply #395 on: March 12, 2012, 11:13:16 AM

Biggest mistake of the day was trying to read your post.
Typhon
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Posts: 2493


Reply #396 on: March 12, 2012, 03:19:18 PM

so funny, i glanced at how he structured his post and something whispered "whacko" in the back of my head.  My eyes glanced ahead to Draegan's.  Still laughing as I type this, delighted that my day is better for listening to my to that little voice (and Draegan!).
Shatter
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Posts: 1407


Reply #397 on: March 13, 2012, 11:52:55 AM

Do I need a special program to editfuck my posts like that? 
Tyrnan
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Posts: 428


Reply #398 on: March 13, 2012, 12:12:28 PM

I think it's some kind of drinking game and he had a few shots between paragraphs. It doesn't start out too bad...
Valmorian
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Posts: 1163


Reply #399 on: March 13, 2012, 04:13:44 PM

Players being rooted during combat animations has nothing to do with player counts or persistence or being online. It's a design things that games with good combat typically do.

I never understood this gameplay decision.
Rokal
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Posts: 1652


Reply #400 on: March 13, 2012, 04:19:51 PM

Players being rooted during combat animations has nothing to do with player counts or persistence or being online. It's a design things that games with good combat typically do.

I never understood this gameplay decision.


From my post above...

Quote
The animation lock is very deliberate. It creates a higher risk/reward system in the game, because you can't just roll out of an attack if you start it at the wrong time. It works exactly the way it's designed to work, and it's certainly more interesting than action games where playing poorly has little consequence. From my experience, you were able to move your character as soon as animations looked like they completed.

In short, it makes the combat more believable/exciting. If Street Fighter had no animation locks, it would remove all of the strategy and depth from the game. You'd be left with a game where the player with the fastest reaction time wins (as you can always interrupt your attack to block), instead of a game where planning and timing are important keys to winning.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 04:23:15 PM by Rokal »
Draegan
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Posts: 10043


Reply #401 on: March 14, 2012, 08:29:13 AM

It's not about stopping an animation to do something else.

It's about me chasing after someone and if I want to attack them, my character has to stop moving, stand still, and swing a weapon while watching someone run away from me.  I just want to be able to swing my weapon while moving.  I'm fine with committing to an attack chain once you start it, but don't root my legs in place while doing it.

Zetor
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WWW
Reply #402 on: March 14, 2012, 08:57:42 AM

Insert obligatory reference to COH's combat / animation system here.

tmp
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Posts: 4257

POW! Right in the Kisser!


Reply #403 on: March 14, 2012, 10:52:20 AM

I'm fine with committing to an attack chain once you start it, but don't root my legs in place while doing it.
But then it's not exactly committing if you can use your legs to move out of danger mid-swing, if you think things are going south for you.

I do see the problem with not being able to hit a fleeing target as result, though. If i'm not mistaken fighting games generally solve that by having melee attacks move your character forward as part of it, which prevents the target from gaining distance.
Sky
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Posts: 32117

I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #404 on: March 14, 2012, 11:41:12 AM

Simple, just lock the target, too!  why so serious?
tmp
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Posts: 4257

POW! Right in the Kisser!


Reply #405 on: March 14, 2012, 12:42:45 PM

WoW clearly got that right with the daze debuff why so serious?
Draegan
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Posts: 10043


Reply #406 on: March 14, 2012, 12:45:20 PM

I'm fine with committing to an attack chain once you start it, but don't root my legs in place while doing it.
But then it's not exactly committing if you can use your legs to move out of danger mid-swing, if you think things are going south for you.

I do see the problem with not being able to hit a fleeing target as result, though. If i'm not mistaken fighting games generally solve that by having melee attacks move your character forward as part of it, which prevents the target from gaining distance.

This game isn't Street Fighter.
tmp
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Posts: 4257

POW! Right in the Kisser!


Reply #407 on: March 14, 2012, 01:00:10 PM

This game isn't Street Fighter.
Sure, but certain basic mechanics are going to function the same -- in the sense being able to move while attacking isn't somehow not going to allow the player roll out of attacks just because the game isn't Street Fighter. Meaning that's something that has to be acknowledged and either accepted as price paid for that extra freedom, or somehow addressed if deemed too high a price.
Sheepherder
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Posts: 5192


Reply #408 on: March 14, 2012, 01:41:58 PM

Have you ever played an action game that wasn't mid-90's pc jank?



Machine gun pickup was just about the most bestest fucking thing ever: common enough to blow on zombie hordes, but still a shitton of fun.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 01:50:22 PM by Sheepherder »
Outlawedprod
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Posts: 454


Reply #409 on: March 14, 2012, 07:16:53 PM

Patrick Wyatt GDC Invterview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nHRWy7bbqE

Interview: Producer Chris Hager on TERA's Hitboxes, RMT, Events, and Political System
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT5p1rN4Xi0
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 07:26:21 PM by Outlawedprod »
Margalis
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Posts: 12335


Reply #410 on: March 15, 2012, 12:41:20 AM

This game isn't Street Fighter.

Sure but this is also how Final Fight works, how Dynasty Warriors works, how Devil May Cry works, etc.

Again, I can get personally preferring being able to shuffle your feet while attacking but the there's nothing invalid about rooting as a design approach.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Sky
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Posts: 32117

I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #411 on: March 15, 2012, 07:02:48 AM

Which of those is an mmo again?
Draegan
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Posts: 10043


Reply #412 on: March 15, 2012, 07:54:07 AM

This game isn't Street Fighter.

Sure but this is also how Final Fight works, how Dynasty Warriors works, how Devil May Cry works, etc.

Again, I can get personally preferring being able to shuffle your feet while attacking but the there's nothing invalid about rooting as a design approach.

No design choice is invalid.  I just happen to think it's stupid in the context of TERA.
taolurker
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Posts: 1460


Reply #413 on: March 15, 2012, 12:04:53 PM

Massively giving away TERA beta keys for beta weekend 4 (Friday 3/23/12 - Sunday 3/25/12)


I used to write for extinct gaming sites
details available here (unused blog about page)
Hoax
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Posts: 8110

l33t kiddie


Reply #414 on: March 15, 2012, 12:42:31 PM

No design choice is invalid.  I just happen to think it's stupid in the context of TERA.

...

TERA's combat mechanic goals were spot on and are the clear evolutionary step FOR MMO combat as we have known it since EQ1. They have taken auto attacks and abilities and given them hitboxes, almost all of which allow you to hit more than one target if grouped close enough together. In order to make the system work some abilities root you in place, auto attacks do not but some do. They clearly designed the abilities for pve as many have impractically long start up time or way too many active frames where you are basically just watching the ability go off.

But that's a flaw in the design of the abilities themselves. Probably giving melee classes very few slows and gap closers would turn out to be stupid as fuck also and in general pvp balance in this game may end up being the worst we have seen in quite some time.

THAT SAID. Your fucking "points" aren't points. You don't seem to understand anything that you are talking about and you haven't once suggested the system that should be in place. Having abilities take time to activate before they do damage, or having forced animation during which they do damage, or forcing you to commit to an ability instead of allowing you to cancel it at will are part of the positives of the combat system TERA was going for not negatives.

Which of those is an mmo again?

Good point dude!

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
Rokal
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Posts: 1652


Reply #415 on: March 15, 2012, 01:29:34 PM

Most of the 'root while charging up' abilities eventually allow you to move while charging as you rank them up, just at a slower speed.

Every class gets fast-animation abilities that you could use while moving without coming full-stop for a long animation, but the trade off is that those abilities don't do as much damage. The most obvious example of this is your basic attack, which has a fast animation and can be interrupted easily, but barely does any damage compared to other abilities.

The result is that the game isn't about using your highest damage ability in a rotation when it's up, it's about using the right ability for the situation and the window of opportunity you have.

I skipped the last beta weekend to play ME3, but I'm looking forward to seeing more dungeon content next weekend. DDO tried to do some of the same things with its combat system, but ran into the problem where group combat kind of felt like a chaotic mess with certain classes. TERA seems like it might suffer the same problem. I ran the first dungeon with 2 sorcerers and the giant spell effects made combat much harder to read. Rather than concentrating on the giant boss running around, seeing what direction he was turning or his tells for abilities, I was watching a techni-color light show on his body. The second run I did of the that dungeon was without a sorc, and that run was much more enjoyable.

Basically, I like the combat system a lot, but I'm wondering whether it will hold up as an MMO where the focus is usually doing content with a group of players.
Sky
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I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #416 on: March 15, 2012, 01:46:24 PM

and in general pvp balance in this game may end up being the worst we have seen in quite some time.
Ask yourself one question (the general you, of course):

Is this game a purely pvp game?

If the answer is no, then you already know it will suck. It will. How much player griping and dev 'balancing' (aka pve nerfs) can be avoided by just not trying to find chocolate in a jar of peanut butter.
Shatter
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Posts: 1407


Reply #417 on: March 15, 2012, 04:33:22 PM

and in general pvp balance in this game may end up being the worst we have seen in quite some time.
Ask yourself one question (the general you, of course):

Is this game a purely pvp game?

If the answer is no, then you already know it will suck. It will. How much player griping and dev 'balancing' (aka pve nerfs) can be avoided by just not trying to find chocolate in a jar of peanut butter.

Why Im skipping it.  Not a PvP game and just another MMO with PvP as a secondary priority if at all.  They are just throwing enough of it in at launch to say they have it.  Sky summed it up
Margalis
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Reply #418 on: March 15, 2012, 07:29:14 PM

Sky is like 25 years behind in game design terms.

This stuff is literally from the days of Double Dragon if not earlier. OH MY GOD YOU CAN'T MOVE WHILE YOU SWING TEH BAT!!

In his rush to proclaim that everything must do exactly what SWTOR did and just badly ape WoW he seems to have forgotten to come up with an actual point. "This isn't how other MMOs work!" No shit - that's the idea. It is how good action games work - also the idea.

It's funny, for a very long time people told us that MMOs couldn't have action-style combat because of technical limitations. Now that that's no longer true the new argument is...that they can but they shouldn't because that goes against the noble MMO spirit of just copying WoW. I guess?

I don't even understand how to make sense of "but that's not how other MMOs work." Yeah - and other MMOs have shit combat compared to combat games. This is like arguing that if you are making an MMO with driving elements you shouldn't try to make the driving like driving games, or if you are making an MMO with space combat you shouldn't pattern after good space combat games. Instead you should just make shitty MMO-ized versions of everything. So you get a game like E&B where you pilot a spaceship and shoot at stuff but what direction you shoot in and how you steer barely matters - fun.

And yes, there are people who like shitty MMO-ized versions of things, but those people already have three dozen games to play.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Draegan
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Posts: 10043


Reply #419 on: March 15, 2012, 08:19:39 PM


THAT SAID. Your fucking "points" aren't points. You don't seem to understand anything that you are talking about and you haven't once suggested the system that should be in place. Having abilities take time to activate before they do damage, or having forced animation during which they do damage, or forcing you to commit to an ability instead of allowing you to cancel it at will are part of the positives of the combat system TERA was going for not negatives.

As per your usual internet tough-guy douchebag posting style, you seem to really enjoy being an asshole.  Now maybe if you stop dumbfuck routine and read what I'm saying, you might see my point.

Everything you typed is correct.  I don't mind abilities take to to activate before they do damage.  I don't mind having extra animations before I can activate another ability.  I also don't mind not being able to cancel either if I had to have that.

What I do want, is the ability to move while doing all of this.  I'd like to see myself animate the attack while running, jumping and moving.  Even if you have to slow me down like they did with casting in Vanguard. 

Apparently you can move once you rank up abilities so that makes things better.  I have no idea why they do that, but whatever.  So I guess the whole argument is over in any case.

And as usual, Margalis acts like a douche and tries to use Double Dragon, a game that is 20+ years old, to defend himself.

Can I get some DCUO combat?  Now that shit was a good combat system.





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