Mass Effect 2 *spoilers around pg 29/30*

[Paelos]

The problem of Mass Effect is that it's already too streamlined. What could they streamline more? It's already largely bereft of any real choice (except the superficial) and the RPG options are already dumbed down to four skills that don't really matter that much anyway.

If they streamline it more it will essentially become a rail shooter like Call of Duty.

But wider audiences means more monies!

[Lantyssa]

"Design for the audience you have" should apply to sequels of single-player games, too.

[jakonovski]

Genericize the plot enough and there's no need for anyone to have played the earlier games! Bald space marines shooting aliens on earth! We're done here!

[Jeff Kelly]

But wider audiences means more monies!

I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

[jakonovski]

We're just throwing streamlining at the wall here to see what sticks.

[Mazakiel]

The PR boys just informed me that I should not have mentioned the streamlining.  They're telling me I ought to stop making these statements.   That gave me an idea: make more statements! I pay the bills here, I can talk about the streamlining all damn day!

[Fordel]

It's not the reloading itself, it's the finite ammo. That fucks the flow of combat in the game for me.


Just cleaned out this room in a hellish fire fight, better backtrack to make sure I have enough bullets now!

[Lantyssa]

It's not the reloading itself, it's the finite ammo. That fucks the flow of combat in the game for me.

This.  Which is why I made my own infinite ammo mod.  Still have to reload clips, but I don't have to worry about switching guns unless I'd like to choose it for effectiveness against my current target.

[Ingmar]

It's not the reloading itself, it's the finite ammo. That fucks the flow of combat in the game for me.


Just cleaned out this room in a hellish fire fight, better backtrack to make sure I have enough bullets now!

I like that I can run out of <given ammo type> in a fight, it makes it more strategic/interesting when I choose to use a particular thing. /shrug

[tmp]

The problem of Mass Effect is that it's already too streamlined. What could they streamline more?

I don't think they're planning to streamline it. They're planning to make it as much like CoD and such as they can, because as far as they're concerned that's the kind of game which sells 5 mil+ copies, so clearly the only way for a game to sell 5 mil+ copies is to be as CoD-like as possible.

on the upside, as someone else put it, Effects of War has a nice ring to it 

[Fordel]

It's not the reloading itself, it's the finite ammo. That fucks the flow of combat in the game for me.


Just cleaned out this room in a hellish fire fight, better backtrack to make sure I have enough bullets now!

I like that I can run out of <given ammo type> in a fight, it makes it more strategic/interesting when I choose to use a particular thing. /shrug

Except you never run out, they just throw more minions at you that are no actual threat and only exist to ensure you can bash them over and steal their ammo. You just have to run around between waves to collect it all, which is fucking stupid in your space hero game.

[Jeff Kelly]

I don't like selective realism in games. So you're throwing wave after wave of cannon fodder against me that I gun down like I'm in a Rambo movie? A feat that would clearly get me killed out here in the real world, yet somehow I can only do this with x amount of ammo. As if somehow the ammo carrying capacity is important for my suspension of disbelief.

I like the "ammo equals disposable heatsinks" principle of ME2 because it's better in my opinion than the overheat feature of ME1. My main issue is that you're simply getting too little ammo, especially in harder modes because pacing in that game is just the ratio of ammo given out vs. number and toughness of enemies.

I hate the little inconsistencies, like the fact that your opponents always seem to have better weapons, more ammo and better armor because something that would get you killed in an instant is somehow no big deal for them. Or the selective realism that means that you somehow wear a portable force field that protects you from bullets while wielding psychic powers and flying through space accompanied by aliens, yet they somehow only issue you ten sniper rifle bullets simply because a race that has mastered interstellar flight somehow has trouble getting rid of the concept of bullets.

I sincerely hope to see a game made that achieves to present me with a challenge without drowning me in hordes of minions that I need to dispose of while only giving me lemons to do so. At least have the curtesy to give me explodable lemons.

[Sjofn]

It's not the reloading itself, it's the finite ammo. That fucks the flow of combat in the game for me.


Just cleaned out this room in a hellish fire fight, better backtrack to make sure I have enough bullets now!

You've said this several times now. Except for the sniper rifle, I have never once thought "I better scour the room for bullets." I grab whatever is between me and the next room, and that is usually plenty. I never run backwards, even when I AM using the sniper rifle. I just grab shit as I go forward. It's probably worse on insanity (the only time I came close to actually running out of EVERYTHING), but I really have not experienced the whole "SEARCH THE ENTIRE ROOM OMG" thing. Maybe you should be a little less OCD? 

[Maledict]

Just to repeat, a Bioware dev has already come straight out in response to this sort of panicky stuff and said it isn't the case at all that they are further streamlining. They're on the record saying that they are bringing back some of the complexity of ME1 with regards to skill upgrades and gear options.

ME2 was an amazing game. Do we really need to spend endless pages worrying about something that we won't be able to judge for another 9 months?

(I think I know the answer here! :) ).

[Paelos]

Without endless speculation and worry, this forum would just be Yeg posting pictures that describe his day.

[Fordel]

It's not the reloading itself, it's the finite ammo. That fucks the flow of combat in the game for me.


Just cleaned out this room in a hellish fire fight, better backtrack to make sure I have enough bullets now!

You've said this several times now. Except for the sniper rifle, I have never once thought "I better scour the room for bullets." I grab whatever is between me and the next room, and that is usually plenty. I never run backwards, even when I AM using the sniper rifle. I just grab shit as I go forward. It's probably worse on insanity (the only time I came close to actually running out of EVERYTHING), but I really have not experienced the whole "SEARCH THE ENTIRE ROOM OMG" thing. Maybe you should be a little less OCD? 

You just light everything on fire with your engineer, I'm surprised you even know there are guns in ME2 !

[UnSub]

They're on the record saying that they are bringing back some of the complexity of ME1 with regards to skill upgrades and gear options.

Did I miss something that made the ME character development system complex? Or even the ME2 one? It's all just earn points -> buy abilities.

And the only thing complex about the ME gear was the metric tonnes of equipment that Shepherd picked up.

[Fordel]

The Gear in ME1 was total fucking horseshit and I was not sad to see it go.


52 Variations of

Attack +21
Accuracy +23

vs

Attack +23
Accuracy +21





Gel it all and let Enkindlers sort is out.

[Ingmar]

Without endless speculation and worry, this forum would just be Yeg posting pictures that describe his day.

We should have a sticky thread just for that.

[tmp]

Well, there's some (still vague) details on what they have planned when it comes to ME3 changes.

"We want to enrich the role-playing aspects of the game, while making sure that they're always meaningful in combat," Norman told OXM when asked whether the threequel's fleet-footed tactical gunplay might clash with its RPG elements.

"We don't want to have any meaningless behind-the-scenes stat games, where the output is very minor in combat. Every single thing you do has a real impact in the battle."

apparently the way to enrich role-playing is to make it all about the fighting. Wonder if that means the paragon/renegade score thing is going away?

(or maybe once your score gets high enough you will be able to stun enemies with appeals to peace, or hurt them with harsh renegade words. Literally )

[Sjofn]

It's not the reloading itself, it's the finite ammo. That fucks the flow of combat in the game for me.


Just cleaned out this room in a hellish fire fight, better backtrack to make sure I have enough bullets now!

You've said this several times now. Except for the sniper rifle, I have never once thought "I better scour the room for bullets." I grab whatever is between me and the next room, and that is usually plenty. I never run backwards, even when I AM using the sniper rifle. I just grab shit as I go forward. It's probably worse on insanity (the only time I came close to actually running out of EVERYTHING), but I really have not experienced the whole "SEARCH THE ENTIRE ROOM OMG" thing. Maybe you should be a little less OCD? 

You just light everything on fire with your engineer, I'm surprised you even know there are guns in ME2 !

Hey, I went through the game with PigShep too, who was an infiltrator! He felt the ammo thing most keenly, too, because sniper rifles are ammo pigs and the clips only give you one at a time and shit. I also finished it with renegade LadyShep who was a ... biotic ... thingy. Not the one with the suicide charge, the one with some sort of shield thing. I should probably finish my soldier playthrough one of these days.

I did like my engineer best, though. Especially once his class name changed to MECHANIC.

[Ingmar]

Well, there's some (still vague) details on what they have planned when it comes to ME3 changes.

"We want to enrich the role-playing aspects of the game, while making sure that they're always meaningful in combat," Norman told OXM when asked whether the threequel's fleet-footed tactical gunplay might clash with its RPG elements.

"We don't want to have any meaningless behind-the-scenes stat games, where the output is very minor in combat. Every single thing you do has a real impact in the battle."

apparently the way to enrich role-playing is to make it all about the fighting. Wonder if that means the paragon/renegade score thing is going away?

(or maybe once your score gets high enough you will be able to stun enemies with appeals to peace, or hurt them with harsh renegade words. Literally )

He's talking about the RPG advancement part. You know, the stuff that makes it an RPG instead of a shooter with dialogue. As in a point in guns won't give you 5% better blah, it will let you do something new or have some obvious effect. Seriously I don't see how you can read that as 'they're stripping things out in favor of more combat' unless you're trying to find things to complain/worry about.

[rk47]

If they make it just a standard shooter, I'm out. I don't care enough about "teh storeh" to put up with that dumbassery.

You need to explain to me what makes it "not a standard shooter" hence in my understanding "Good RPG elements of ME2" and what's so great about it?

Which part of the game isn't rail roaded missions in Mass Effect 2? If you're referring to 'pick a planet' in Normandy, great, they can keep that, but once you're on the ground, you basically enter a peace-hub before hitting the warzone. Then, you can't exit that warzone until you complete the objective.

Prove me wrong on this. Most if not all of the ME2 mission structure is simply that. Rail-roaded scripted spawn encounters. I don't mind that. The exploration of peace hubs, acquiring of missions, character interaction outside and inside missions, paragon or renegade, they can keep.

But to imply that injecting more shooter elements is the wrong decision, I'm gonna need some convincing.

The Paragon/Renegade simply serve as a counter to prevent Shepard from flip-flopping too easily and forces him to be consistent throughout his dealings with the galaxy. Either be a Morally Upright Hero or Ruthless. At late game, the checks are too high that Renegade Shepard cannot resolve things with diplomacy any more.

I accept the above. But if you're referring to, 'Hey, you're level 3 , now your Warp does 20 more damage' RPG mechanics that you want to keep in the 3rd game.  I refuse without any reservation. Why can't they inject more 'streamlined' leveling into that biotic advancement? Perhaps a mod? Or usage based (It has to damage X threshold to gain more powers?) much like Achievements awarded to the players in ME2?

Dealing 1000 Warp Damage should allow you to customize the power further etc.
A biotic mods would further enhance its damage output or allows additional paralyzing effect? Or even combine it with Push biotic?

Why not? Why do I have to 'plan' my character advancements by skill points?
There was hardly a point in ME2 when I cheered at the level up screen. It was so bland and forgettable unless I unlock a new skill. But once I grabbed that new Assault Rifle or SMG off a mission, things changed. They handled differently and forces me to re-learn the weapon. That's what makes the DLC very different than DA2 DLC as well. It's not just weapons with uber stats, the Mattock Assault Rifle has smaller clip size, no auto-fire yet packs a kick. The Locust SMG changes how you handle SMG engagement, before, you cannot even hope to snipe with SMGs, with the Locus, careful aims will pay off more since its clip is smaller.

I won't even go into the Heavy Weapons, but I think you get the idea.

I ask again, what makes that RPG level up mechanic 'Warp 1 , Warp 2, does 25 more dmg, Warp 3, does 50 dmg, Warp 4A - Hits one HARD, Warp 4B - Hits many hard' so attractive? Does it enhance the game in any meaningful way?

They've been doing things half-assedly so far, but if ME3 really drop any pre-tense of being stat-allocated bullshit of leveled skills, then it's only going to improve. If they don't, then it's their loss.

[Bunk]

I don't think people are arguing that it has to be a skill based setup, just that there be distinct customization. The requirement being that you actually have to make choices, or choose different paths. That's one of the things that gives your character a sense of uniqueness and development. Honestly, I'd like to see more expanded choice than we had in ME2, becuase by the time you hit 30, you really only had one skill/power not at or near max. If you want to offer it through mods a la Deus Ex instead of skill points, so be it. Just give me some choice.

Am I the only person that actually liked most of the ME1 loot system? Had they given us a functional inventory system it would have been fine. I liked being able to choose between making my sniper rifle a semi-auto machine of limitless heat dispersion or a mega cannon of devastation than nearly melted everytime I shot it. I also liked finding new armor for my squad...

Oh, and give me back fucking numbers for my weapons. I hate having to 'experiment" to figure out which gun is better. Not that it mattered pre DLC, as there where only two or three of each gun, and you just picked the one with the higher model number 

[tmp]

He's talking about the RPG advancement part. You know, the stuff that makes it an RPG instead of a shooter with dialogue.

How exactly do you figure "role-playing aspects of the game" = "advancement and nothing but"? Wouldn't it make more sense for them to actually say "skill advancement" if that's what they meant?

And we clearly differ on the take here, but i'd say that the dialogue is a part of what makes it the RPG instead of a "shooter with dialogue". Since that's effectively the part where you're making choices which are supposed to match the personality you role-play, and affect the course of the game.

[Lantyssa]

Am I the only person that actually liked most of the ME1 loot system? Had they given us a functional inventory system it would have been fine. I liked being able to choose between making my sniper rifle a semi-auto machine of limitless heat dispersion or a mega cannon of devastation than nearly melted everytime I shot it. I also liked finding new armor for my squad...

Too much similarity between weapons, and it suffered from "this is the only item I'll ever need" syndrome, but I liked the mod system.  With a better sorting interface it would have been fine.

[Morat20]

Am I the only person that actually liked most of the ME1 loot system? Had they given us a functional inventory system it would have been fine. I liked being able to choose between making my sniper rifle a semi-auto machine of limitless heat dispersion or a mega cannon of devastation than nearly melted everytime I shot it. I also liked finding new armor for my squad...

Too much similarity between weapons, and it suffered from "this is the only item I'll ever need" syndrome, but I liked the mod system.  With a better sorting interface it would have been fine.

Bring back mods. Keep the low number of guns of ME2. I hate ammo powers -- give me weapon mods. I liked the armor customization of ME2 over the million armor types of ME1, but I'd have liked the ability to screw with my allies armor. Let me decide how I want them to be.

I rather enjoyed the achievement bonuses of ME1, actually. (I know there was an XP and money achievement bonus in ME2) That was cool -- but I didn't like being tied to a single pair of party members for 80% of the game.

The interface for ME1 did, in fact, suck donkey balls and the fact that Collossus armor and Spectre gear was all you wanted --- well, like I said -- keep the ME2 system for armor and weapons (you can give me armor MODS if you don't want me swapping armor pieces, but I liked the color and customization options at least) but give me mods for armor and weapons, mine and my allies. Ditch ammo powers.

[tmp]

Bring back mods.

They have confirmed these are returning in some form i think. IIRC more like something you attach to the weapons while on the ship rather than swap on the fly.

[Morat20]

Bring back mods.

They have confirmed these are returning in some form i think. IIRC more like something you attach to the weapons while on the ship rather than swap on the fly.

That's fine. I'm behind that. Did I mention I hate ammo powers? Stupid, PITA, always making sure they're on.

ME1 had one set of guns and one set of armor you wanted everyone to have. ME2 basically had that, although the guns upgraded (and they added a bit of difference and choices into the DLCs). Your N7 armor was basically 'modable'. So give me mods for the guns and armor. For my allies would ALSO be great.

Ammo powers were just a lazy-ass mod that took up skill points. As it was, I always ended up giving Sheppard warp ammo and taking it to squad ammo and never using anything else.

[tmp]

ME1 had one set of guns and one set of armor you wanted everyone to have.

I was picking the weapons based on the colouring of the casing, so they'd coordinate with the outfits i put on my companions

was as good approach as any i'd say, given the game played quite the same no matter what gear i'd be using. ME2 is quite the same in this regard in my eyes, no matter how much wank people are having over one gun having bigger clip size than the other.

[Morat20]

ME1 had one set of guns and one set of armor you wanted everyone to have.

I was picking the weapons based on the colouring of the casing, so they'd coordinate with the outfits i put on my companions

was as good approach as any i'd say, given the game played quite the same no matter what gear i'd be using. ME2 is quite the same in this regard in my eyes, no matter how much wank people are having over one gun having bigger clip size than the other.

You must suck at the game. :) Spectre gear was phemonally better in ME1 than anything else. It wasn't quite as cut and dried in ME2 without the DLC's though -- it was mostly just clip size, unless you got the "super awesome" Collector upgrade weapon.

With the DLC's -- there's no comparing the SMG from Kasumi's with any of the others. The Locust is so much better than you'd have to be blind not to notice.

[Lantyssa]

ME1 had one set of guns and one set of armor you wanted everyone to have. ME2 basically had that, although the guns upgraded (and they added a bit of difference and choices into the DLCs). Your N7 armor was basically 'modable'. So give me mods for the guns and armor. For my allies would ALSO be great.

I liked that you could customize the armor.  I disliked that the armor's properties were tied to the customization.  Appearance should be separate from the mods it grants.

[CmdrSlack]

I'm all for separating appearance customization from stats on weapon and armor mods.

Even in DA2 and its lack of gear, I have issues with my mage playthrough -- the hats suck, and then you get a good one and it's suddenly useless after an hour or so of gameplay.

I'd even take something similar to LOTRO's system where you have your real gear and your appearance gear.

[Morat20]

I stand corrected. :) Go back entirely to mods -- mods for you, mods for your allies, mods for weapons and mods for armor.

Pistols, Shotguns, Assault Rifles, Sniper Rifles, and Heavy Weapons -- I'm on the fence as to whether to make them identical in all but appearance and let the mods sort it out.

[tmp]

You must suck at the game. :) Spectre gear was phemonally better in ME1 than anything else.

Sure, it gets easier with the top gear but it's not hard at all even with regular one, either. Thus i really couldn't care less if everyone had that top gear or not. Whether that means i suck at the game is open to interpretation