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Topic: AFKing for epics in raids (Read 71129 times)
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JWIV
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2392
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Mostly what Delmania said. Pulling the slot lever is one thing, but when we start talking about risk/reward and challenge, it tends to be used by the nutters who yearn for the days of 24 hour Guk camps and being kicked in the nuts repeatedly as opposed to people who are looking for actual game play.
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Nebu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 17613
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My point is: If people can afk and your raid remains successful, then it's stupid to require that many people for your raid. Everyone should be contributing. If some people don't have to contribute, then those people shouldn't be required for completion. Make the bosses tough enough that everyone in the raid must do their job for the raid to be successful. You don't have to make it stupid hard... just have it be tough enough that everyone is engaged in the event.
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"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."
- Mark Twain
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
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My point is: If people can afk and your raid remains successful, then it's stupid to require that many people for your raid. Everyone should be contributing. If some people don't have to contribute, then those people shouldn't be required for completion. Make the bosses tough enough that everyone in the raid must do their job for the raid to be successful. You don't have to make it stupid hard... just have it be tough enough that everyone is engaged in the event.
That kind of thinking gave us fights like we had in TBC, where if one person died you were fucked. I don't think you should design fights where everyone has to be active all the time because of death rates more than AFKs. "Perfectionist" fights as I call them are never fun. Expecting 25 people to all stay alive is fine on certain fights where there's not a lot of boss AE or abilities, such as Patchwerk, but on fights like Archimonde it was horribly retarded.
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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Nebu
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Posts: 17613
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That's exactly why I think that large raids are a dumb idea. They either produce a situation where one person fucks it up for many or a situation where a few people do nothing and are bored out of their skull.
Keep raids to 5 or 10 people at a max. More than that and people stop playing the game (or, as you pointed out, become frustrated).
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"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."
- Mark Twain
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Delmania
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Posts: 676
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Reducing the number required to 0.5 to 2 groups is a step in the right direction. It's also, in my opinion, the easiest step. The next steps are more challenging. You also need to reduce the difficulty of the trash fights while increasign the difficultly of the boss fights, and also try to reduce the gear requirements. With WotLK, WoW seems to be going in that direction.
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Arinon
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Posts: 312
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How many unique classes or even roles do you want the game to support? You can only reduce raid sizes so much before you sack a lot of unique and interesting boss encounter mechanics.
And with all the lockout timers on the more expansive content what happens to the guild that doesn't want to split itself into 5/10 man teams every week? Most social circles in-game exceed five people, some don't. Probably why they do both raid sizes now.
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Merusk
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Posts: 27449
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Here's a novel thought. Shorter or nonexistent "lockout" timers. You aren't locked out in single player games. The only reason you are in MMOs is to enforce rarity of items and limit their flow into the economy. EQ did this via the mobs themselves only spawning once a week or so. Wow does this via lockout timers so that you aren't catering only to the 'It's 5am the spawn is up get your ass online NOW' crowd.
However, WoW failed to realize that the fact all of their gear is BoP accomplishes the rarity and removes items recirculating into it entirely.
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The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
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Delmania
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Posts: 676
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How many unique classes or even roles do you want the game to support? You can only reduce raid sizes so much before you sack a lot of unique and interesting boss encounter mechanics. There are only 3 roles: tank, support, damage. LotrO does well with raids that vary in size from 3 people to 12, hence half a group to 2 groups. And with all the lockout timers on the more expansive content what happens to the guild that doesn't want to split itself into 5/10 man teams every week? Most social circles in-game exceed five people, some don't. Probably why they do both raid sizes now.
They can still do the 25 man raids, we're just asking for more content for those of us who can't dedicate our lives to the game.
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Nebu
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Posts: 17613
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How many unique classes or even roles do you want the game to support? You can only reduce raid sizes so much before you sack a lot of unique and interesting boss encounter mechanics.
Unique and interesting boss encounters? Are you suggesting that you can't make fun and interesting bosses for a 5 or 10 man raid? I'd say that you can. Matter of fact, the fewer people you have to coordinate, the more complex the encounter can still be abd be finished successfully. More people = more chances for a fuckup. As for variety, I'm of the opinion that the more player variation in a raid should be rewarded. I dont' know about all encounters in WoW, but it would be interesting if encounters were to be significantly easier if there exists a wider variety of classes/specs present. That's not to say you can't still complete the raid with fewer classes, but I'm dying for a game that rewards player diversity beyond the dps/tank/healer paradigm.
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"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."
- Mark Twain
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Merusk
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The game would have to be designed with keeping that paradigm out of it in mind. Wow and most DIKUs embrace it instead. Why, I'll never know. Much as I like DIKU_level_grind I hate the 'you must have a healer' aspect. CoX did a very good job of reducing it to almost nil.. too bad there wasn't enough game and too much grind there to keep me interested.
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The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
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Arinon
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Posts: 312
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If the encounters were all built with only the three vanilla roles in mind how do you treat all the different skillsets? AoE damage, crowd control, mana drain, longevity vs. burst capability, movement, interclass synergies, any number of things that one class does better then another. When you reduce raid sizes to the point where you can’t or rarely bring all the abilities to the table one of two things happen. Either the boss is reasonably killable without using those skills best suited for it, or it isn’t. Which means if you don’t leverage those skills the boss is either trival or extremely frustrating. The alternative is to build bosses that can be beat with good old tank and spank, or have unique mechanics that don’t lend themselves to any class in particular. I doubt you can do that for long and keep things from getting stale. Those types of mechanics tend to get exhausted in the solo quests and such. More people = more chances for a fuckup.
Definitely. To my mind chances for fuckups is where most of the fun is. As for variety, I'm of the opinion that the more player variation in a raid should be rewarded.
I agree but how much variation do you have in a 5 man group? You've only brought about half the different classes in game with you. None of this is meant to imply small scale isn’t fun. But there is certainly something to be said for larger scale encounters. Not 40 man though, fuck that shit.
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Koyasha
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Posts: 1363
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Lockout timers aren't just to limit flow of items into the economy, but also to keep people busy longer. Remember all the guilds that had cleared Naxx after 2 days of the expansion being out or whatever? Now what if they could have walked out, reset, cleared it again? Two or three weeks later every one of their members would have been fully geared out in everything they want, because they'd probably clear the place two or three times a day. And then all those people would have nothing to do until Ulduar.
I do see a lot of merit in removing lockout timers, but it would make the high-end game a lot less "sticky", since people would push very hard to get all their gear quickly, then once they get it all, they're somewhat burnt out from the constant raiding, AND there's not a damn thing left to do.
I do wish they'd remove the lockout timer on heroics entirely, though. I see a little use for that, but people don't typically do ALL the heroics every day now, so it wouldn't really increase badge influx by a significant amount. Reducing the lockout timer as raids become 'lower end' would also be nice. If when Ulduar comes out, all the lower raids drop to a 4 day lockout timer, for example, that would be quite helpful.
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-Do you honestly think that we believe ourselves evil? My friend, we seek only good. It's just that our definitions don't quite match.- Ailanreanter, Arcanaloth
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Job601
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Posts: 192
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The other reason lockout timers exist in WoW is to allow raids enough time to finish an entire instance without having to kill the same bosses over and over again. Weeklong lockouts allow freedom in scheduling for guilds that need two or three nights to finish a raid like Naxxramas. Of course, you could easily create a system that had shorter lockouts, or no lockouts, and preserved this benefit.
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
Error 404: Title not found.
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I'd like to see a system where there's a lockout timer, but it doesn't automatically reset the instance after a week. Give those who haven't cleared everything yet the option of fighting those end bosses.
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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Chimpy
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Posts: 10633
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Go back to the old lockouts where you could schedule when your lockout started and ended by your group.
I know why they took that out, but I liked the fact that guilds that were primarily weekend raiders could clear their farm content in MC on saturday night and be able to spend an hour or two working on that boss all the way up until Friday night. Instead of now where if you are a weekend guild, you get stuck with little time to work on new shit because of the Tuesday lockout reset.
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'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.
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Delmania
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Posts: 676
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If the encounters were all built with only the three vanilla roles in mind how do you treat all the different skillsets? AoE damage, crowd control, mana drain, longevity vs. burst capability, movement, interclass synergies, any number of things that one class does better then another. When you reduce raid sizes to the point where you can’t or rarely bring all the abilities to the table one of two things happen. Either the boss is reasonably killable without using those skills best suited for it, or it isn’t. Which means if you don’t leverage those skills the boss is either trival or extremely frustrating. How many of those various skilllsets are mainly playstyle differences? Tanks must all hold aggro and be able to withstand large damage, healers must be able to heal and cure status ailments, and damage dealers must be able to deal damage. Those mechanics are still there, regardless of say, warriors and druis tanks, mages and warlock damage dealer, and druid and paladin healers. Stylized fights like that are incredibly annoying. For example, do you know Funus is? He's the second to last boss encounter in the Caer Sidi in Dark Age of Camelot. He had a interesting mechanic, he could only be defeated by clerics. Any other class wold just heal him. The only problem was thayt clerics were ins hort supply. The alternative is to build bosses that can be beat with good old tank and spank, or have unique mechanics that don’t lend themselves to any class in particular. I doubt you can do that for long and keep things from getting stale. Those types of mechanics tend to get exhausted in the solo quests and such. The alternate would be to have the boss alternate his or her strategy based on the class makeup. Basically, more AI thank just simple DIKU style beats. More people = more chances for a fuckup.
Definitely. To my mind chances for fuckups is where most of the fun is. I agree but how much variation do you have in a 5 man group? You've only brought about half the different classes in game with you. WoW has 4 tanks, 3 healers, and all classes can do damage. There's plenty of variation there. None of this is meant to imply small scale isn’t fun. But there is certainly something to be said for larger scale encounters. Not 40 man though, fuck that shit. [/quote]
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Merusk
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Posts: 27449
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Go back to the old lockouts where you could schedule when your lockout started and ended by your group.
I know why they took that out, but I liked the fact that guilds that were primarily weekend raiders could clear their farm content in MC on saturday night and be able to spend an hour or two working on that boss all the way up until Friday night. Instead of now where if you are a weekend guild, you get stuck with little time to work on new shit because of the Tuesday lockout reset.
No, they took it out because of the massive amounts of lockout theft that were happening. Once a boss was killed, everyone in that raid has that raid ID. Smaller guilds working on progressing were inviting pugs to do 40 mans, often time those pugs would then sell that raid slot to alts of uberguilds or start up their own raid soon after the guild group broke-up for the night and would proceed to clear the rest of the instance. The inconvenience for smaller guilds was also part of the solution.
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The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
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Ratman_tf
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Posts: 3818
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Definitely. To my mind chances for fuckups is where most of the fun is.
Uhn. I feel tired and burned out just reading that.
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 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful." -Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
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sinij
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Posts: 2597
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While this is true, there are other methods to deal with AFK bgers than to have crappy gear for honor rewards.
Such as? Also how are you going define AFK? Is player that is watching TV while not paying any attention and barely being there AFK? What about morons knowingly sabotaging your team's success chances by not following objectives?
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Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.
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Hindenburg
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Posts: 1854
Itto
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WoW has 4 tanks, 3 healers, and all classes can do damage. There's plenty of variation there.
You're wrong.
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"Who uses Outlook anyway? People who get what they deserve, that's who." - Ard.
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kildorn
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5014
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So yeah, on the initial topic:
If it's a hardcore raiding guild, ditch the dead weight.
If it's a friends and family guild, deal with it.
Either way, the officers are supposed to deal with shit (in a non outwardly hostile manner), and if the GM won't let them deal with problems, the GM is the problem.
It's possible to run a hardcore friends and family guild, but it requires the officers to be on top of their game nicely prodding people in the right direction for performance, and nicely asking what the hell was up with the earth elemental in the middle of a boss. Or why your resto shaman is totally fucking up injections.
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Delmania
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Posts: 676
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You're wrong.
Tanks: Paladins, warriors, druids, death knights. Healer: Paladins, druids, priests. What did I miss?
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Xanthippe
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Posts: 4779
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While this is true, there are other methods to deal with AFK bgers than to have crappy gear for honor rewards.
Such as? Also how are you going define AFK? Is player that is watching TV while not paying any attention and barely being there AFK? What about morons knowingly sabotaging your team's success chances by not following objectives? Just off the top of my head - There's a mod called TuringTest AFK Reporter. I've used it, and it works great. I bet Blizzard could incorporate something similar for battlegrounds. http://wowui.worldofwar.net/?p=mod&m=5064Honor could be distributed according to certain criteria. I recall reading in these threads other solutions about how to deal with afks in battlegrounds - surely you've seen those as well.
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kildorn
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Posts: 5014
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You're wrong.
Tanks: Paladins, warriors, druids, death knights. Healer: Paladins, druids, priests. What did I miss? Resto Shaman.
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Delmania
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Posts: 676
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Whoops, thanks for reminding me.
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Soulflame
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Ugh, beated. Still, yes, shamans. Poor neglected forgotten shamans.
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Merusk
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Posts: 27449
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Wait.. people still play shaman?
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The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
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Nebu
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Posts: 17613
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Wait.. people still play shaman?
Playing one caused me to quit. I want to love the class, but Blizzard refuses to let me.
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"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."
- Mark Twain
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kildorn
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Posts: 5014
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Wait.. people still play shaman?
By play, you mean there are totems in a raid. I think one of the DK trees has them, though. serious edit: Resto Shaman are actually pretty fun for 10 mans, and can fill any raid healing role well. I dropped mine for a priest in TBC due to lack of healing options, but the synergies in the new resto tree are actually a lot of fun.
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Mazakiel
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Posts: 904
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I love my shaman. Unfortunately for him, I love my DK more. But, one of our main healers is a resto shaman, and she rocks at it.
As to buffs, all DKs have Horn of Winter, which is basically the Strength of Earth totem buff. Frost spec can get a haste effect that basically acts as a windfury totem, I think. I've not tried Frost yet, though. And Blood can get an unleashed rage type buff.
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Phred
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Posts: 2025
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They can still do the 25 man raids, we're just asking for more content for those of us who can't dedicate our lives to the game.
You've already got complete parity between 10 and 25 man content. How much more do you want? Add in 5 man content and you have way more than 25 man content.
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K9
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Posts: 7441
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I love my shaman. Unfortunately for him, I love my DK more. But, one of our main healers is a resto shaman, and she rocks at it.
As to buffs, all DKs have Horn of Winter, which is basically the Strength of Earth totem buff. Frost spec can get a haste effect that basically acts as a windfury totem, I think. I've not tried Frost yet, though. And Blood can get an unleashed rage type buff.
Auras are pretty nifty too.
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I love the smell of facepalm in the morning
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kildorn
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Posts: 5014
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I love my shaman. Unfortunately for him, I love my DK more. But, one of our main healers is a resto shaman, and she rocks at it.
As to buffs, all DKs have Horn of Winter, which is basically the Strength of Earth totem buff. Frost spec can get a haste effect that basically acts as a windfury totem, I think. I've not tried Frost yet, though. And Blood can get an unleashed rage type buff.
I'm just poking fun, I have my DK, too. You got all the clone buffs, though Horn of Winter is shittier than most SoE totems (talents make it better). Shaman are still just amazing to have one or two of for totems alone, no matter the spec.
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Fordel
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Posts: 8306
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There are more then a few fights where I wouldn't trade disease/poison cleansing totem for the World (of warcraft)
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and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Soulflame
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Posts: 6487
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There are more then a few fights where I wouldn't trade disease/poison cleansing totem for the World (of warcraft)
... for some reason, I had a visual of a crazed shaman dropping that totem during a Grobb fight.
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