Heatwave

[Tale]

66 74 76 dead in fires and rising, 700 homes destroyed and rising

Best coverage:
http://www.abc.net.au/news
http://www.theage.com.au

The reason I started this thread was not just because it was hot, but because it was hotter than it has ever been, and something like this was going to come of it.

[Oban]

I always have to look up exchange rates, but 84 dead Australians is the equivalent of about 1260 Americans. 

That is a lot of people.

[apocrypha]

Great, I feel really guilty for laughing at that.

[Arthur_Parker]

135 and climbing, truly horrifying.

http://www.theage.com.au/interactive/2009/national/darkestday/video14.html

Old fire test video below, real scary shit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99iYMfWWGS0&feature=channel_page

[UnSub]

The media are really loving this - tears, destruction, local pseudo-celebrity deaths. If someone has just lost everything, don't stick a camera in their face.

Yeah, I know - the media are vultures, news at 11.

[Oban]

Fire sale on round trip tickets to Australia.

[Tale]

Video of just after fire went through:

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2009/02/10/vo.aussie.eye.of.storm.ninenetwork

[lamaros]

While I feel sorry for those people who live in country towns that get the shit kicked out of them each year by bushfires, I really don't have any pity for those who choose to move there or move into a nice house inside a fucking state forest. I've been of this opinion since I was a kid, watching shit like Ash Wednesday on the news wondering "why do they choose tolive there?"

Now I know some people don't have a choice, (ie born there, all their social networks are there, own the pub, a farm, etc) but for those who do, I have no empathy or pity. There are huge bushfires all over the state every fucking year. Grow a fucking brain.

**my brother (not the cool one who introduced me to f13) lives in a state forest. I don't know what the fuck is wrong with him, either.

You're a bit of a dick, and ignorant to boot.

It's been a shitty few days in Victoria. 

[Azazel]

Not really. I have common sense. I said it's one thing if you're born there, and want to live in the place where you've lived all your life, etcetera.

It's another thing if you choose to move to a natural disaster zone. Guess what? The same shit will happen next year, though hopefully with no or at least far fewer deaths. But it's (a few deaths, loss of many homes) happened every year of my life and will continue to happen long after I have died.



To Wit:

My reaction to the woman who's corpse they discovered in her car, loaded up with her crockery is not "die stupid bitch". It's "what the fuck is wrong with you?".

That's how I feel about people who move to bushfire zones. It might be cheap, it might be beautiful. You might spend every summer the rest of your life trying not to die to bushfires.

[Tale]

Koala rescue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XSPx7S4jr4

[lamaros]

Not really. I have common sense. I said it's one thing if you're born there, and want to live in the place where you've lived all your life, etcetera.

It's another thing if you choose to move to a natural disaster zone. Guess what? The same shit will happen next year, though hopefully with no or at least far fewer deaths. But it's (a few deaths, loss of many homes) happened every year of my life and will continue to happen long after I have died.

To Wit:

My reaction to the woman who's corpse they discovered in her car, loaded up with her crockery is not "die stupid bitch". It's "what the fuck is wrong with you?".

That's how I feel about people who move to bushfire zones. It might be cheap, it might be beautiful. You might spend every summer the rest of your life trying not to die to bushfires.

You don't actually know anything about what's happened, do you?

[Sheepherder]

Maybe Australians need to adopt the habits of the Middle East.

...

Avoid alcohol.

Actually, alcohol increases the capacity of your body to radiate heat by thinning your blood.

[Broughden]

Here's my question....every year there are brush fires in this general area yes?
Every year it seem there are brush fires in California.

So why is it no one generally dies in California and fewer towns are ravaged?

Dont the Aussies have local professional or volunteer fire fighters? Dont they have local emergency management people to go around and tell people to get the fuck out of Dodge?
Couldnt they have taken to the TV and radio air waves warning people?

Yes, I understand this was the firestorm of the century or some such shit. But what happened or didnt happen to cause such a loss of life? Did people simply not heed the warnings and waited til it was to late to leave?

Tale? Any info?

[kaid]

There are deaths in california  and for similar reasons if a big windstorm hits you could be one minute a long way from the fire and the next minute it could be all around you. Perhaps they waited a bit to long to evacuate but with the winds reported fire can move very very quickly and jump around as flying embers catch other things on fire and you can wind up trapped and dead very fast.  With it as dry as it is down there the whole place around those towns is a huge tinderbox aching to go up in flames in seconds.

[Broughden]

There are deaths in california  and for similar reasons if a big windstorm hits you could be one minute a long way from the fire and the next minute it could be all around you. Perhaps they waited a bit to long to evacuate but with the winds reported fire can move very very quickly and jump around as flying embers catch other things on fire and you can wind up trapped and dead very fast.  With it as dry as it is down there the whole place around those towns is a huge tinderbox aching to go up in flames in seconds.

Understood. Yet nothing you said is new or ground breaking. It shouldnt have been to the people running the local fire crews or emergency management crisis teams either. So once again what happened or didnt happened that led to such a loss of life?

[Azazel]

You don't actually know anything about what's happened, do you?

I do, but I don't answer to you. Nor am I interested in writing an essay for your benefit. Towns like Kinglake and Marysville aren't the only places that have burned. Additionally, I was talking in general terms, not only about people moving to perpetually-bushfire-threatened townships, but particularly about people who choose to move to state forests, which, as always, have been affected. As I've said before, don't fucking move to a fucking bushfire zone.

Understood. Yet nothing you said is new or ground breaking. It shouldnt have been to the people running the local fire crews or emergency management crisis teams either. So once again what happened or didnt happened that led to such a loss of life?

A couple of reasons are an unusually hot and dry stretch of time culminating on the hottest day on record. Might have been the hottest stretch of time on record as well, and if not it was only short by one day. Arsonists in some areas. Typical thinking is that you're safer in your home than in a car on the road if you leave late, which obviously worked out badly when the fires got to people's homes.

[Tale]

Here's my question....every year there are brush fires in this general area yes?

Firstly, you have to stop calling them brush fires. That's like pronouncing Aussie with an "s" sound instead of a "z" (and we call that a zed, not a zee)

Australia doesn't have brush fires, we have bushfires. This comes from our term for native-forested areas: "bush". Bush or "the bush" is also used to mean anywhere outside the cities, i.e. "I live in the bush" means I live inland, outside a town, "go bush" means to get out into the remote areas. Because until you get to the desert in the middle of the country - unless someone has cleared it for farming or building - the entire nation consists of bush (native forest). Note: this is not the same as the South African "bush" and "bushman" terms, which mean a different thing. In Australia, a bushman means someone who knows about bush survival, not a Kalahari tribesman.

I'd estimate about 99.99999% of the bush consists of eucalyptus trees, with low undergrowth.

So why is it no one generally dies in California and fewer towns are ravaged?

Dont the Aussies have local professional or volunteer fire fighters? Dont they have local emergency management people to go around and tell people to get the fuck out of Dodge?
Couldnt they have taken to the TV and radio air waves warning people?

Yes, I understand this was the firestorm of the century or some such shit. But what happened or didnt happen to cause such a loss of life? Did people simply not heed the warnings and waited til it was to late to leave?

The basic problem is the nature of eucalyptus trees. Catching fire a few times in their existence, is part of their life cycle - they easily survive it, easily regenerate and it helps them seed.

They emit a somewhat flammable vapour that hangs around in the canopy of the tree. So when a fire comes along on a hot day with strong gusts of wind, fire moves with incredible speed across the treetops. It gets so big and hot that there is massive radiant heat, and burning embers driven by the wind create "spot fires" way ahead of the main firefront.

The fire that killed all these people suddenly changed direction due to the wind and travelled many kilometres in an unexpected direction. There is a massive volunteer fire brigade in addition to paid firefighters, and the warnings are on the airwaves. But you can't fight a fire on a day like that. You can just issue a general warning, to get the fuck out in the morning, or stay with your well-prepared home. Because fleeing in your car during the fire is the worst thing you can do. Many of the dead appear to have stayed with their homes, discovered their preparation was inadequate for this intensity of fire, tried to flee in their cars too late, and died on the roads.

Of course, the rest of the time it's a picturesque, beautiful environment. And like the USA, Australian culture is a mix of overseas influences, particularly European, and living a nice peaceful life out in the forest is desirable to many people. In these areas, you get a mix of old hands who know how to survive in the bush, and city folk who have moved to the bush, who don't really know enough.

Before European settlement, the Aborigines lived in the bush but tended to set it alight in the cooler months, to burn it off. That way, if it caught fire in summer it didn't have as much fuel and they didn't die. European settlers considered this arson, rounded up or shot the Aborigines, and paid with their lives when fires came along. So a modern culture of controlled burn-offs developed, and fire authorities are supposed to do it, but people hate living in smoky air and worry about it getting out of control, so burn-offs require a permit system, it all gets too complex and not enough burn-offs are done anymore.

That will probably change after this fire, until people get slack again. As with most things, the Aboriginal traditional knowledge passed down by word-of-mouth is there for a reason, but non-Aboriginal folks tend to dismiss it until something bad happens. In some areas where Aboriginal people still live, they are given the task of doing the controlled burns, because it just fucking works better when they do it.

Also, another stupid white folks thing has happened: people planted Aussie eucalyptus trees all over California.

[Lantyssa]

Are all koalas that docile?  I know they're coming out of their trees because of heat and fire, but they're showing a lot ofl "hey dude, thanks for the water, see you next week mate" levels of casual.

Understood. Yet nothing you said is new or ground breaking. It shouldnt have been to the people running the local fire crews or emergency management crisis teams either. So once again what happened or didnt happened that led to such a loss of life?

Gale-force winds.

[Tale]

Are all koalas that docile?  I know they're coming out of their trees because of heat and fire, but they're showing a lot ofl "hey dude, thanks for the water, see you next week mate" levels of casual.

No, it's freaky. The firefighter in the video I linked above makes a comment along the lines of "he'll probably get to the end of the bottle and scratch the fuck out of my hand".

[Lantyssa]

Ah.  I couldn't make out all of what he was saying with the audio quality.

[Tale]

Found it, he says: "you watch, he'll get hydrated and he'll rip the absolute <beep> out of me"

[Fraeg]

spoke with a buddy lasts night:  his parents lost everything, but managed to live by taking refuge in a culvert that drained into a lake (so basically they were partially submerged in water and sheltered by the culvert.  Neighbors.. not good, several people he grew up with are dead.  All his parent have now are literally the clothes on their back.

Don't know enough about Australia to comment about fires there.   However, living in California, and having spent several seasons when i was young and spry working for the Forest Service as a Wildlands firefighter....  People build homes in stupid places.  However, when people are actually dying it is generally considered to be in poor taste to mock them for it.

With that said:  between Sacramento and south lake Tahoe on highway 50 near the town of kyburz, there is a house that i shit you not from ~1991 to present:

1) Was burned down in a forest fire (I watched this house burn during the Cleveland fire)
2) They rebuilt
3) The house was taken out by a landslide.   
4) They rebuilt
5) The house was taken out by another landslide before they had even moved back in.
6) They rebuilt
7) The house was burned down by another wildfire...

Perhaps  Mother Nature is trying to tell you something?

[lamaros]

Additionally, I was talking in general terms, not only about people moving to perpetually-bushfire-threatened townships, but particularly about people who choose to move to state forests, which, as always, have been affected. As I've said before, don't fucking move to a fucking bushfire zone.

So you're making a general point that doesn't have a whole lot to do with the topic at hand, though not explaining it as such and just casually denigrating the thousands of people who have lost homes, and hundreds who have lots lives. Got it.

Understood. Yet nothing you said is new or ground breaking. It shouldnt have been to the people running the local fire crews or emergency management crisis teams either. So once again what happened or didnt happened that led to such a loss of life?

45+ degrees for a number of days, windy as fuck, arsonists, etc. It's not like people here are stupid, there are always bushfires every summer in Victoria and New South Wales. But when things get to a certain point there is nothing that can be done (Canberra burned a few years back, Sydney before that).

I understand that you might go "huh, how does it happen?" but there are heaps of things that happen in the natural world that human beings ultimately can't control. The bushfire experts here are just as good as anywhere else in the world (Australia often sends assistance to the US for things like the Cali fires).

Granted, the loss of life could have been lower if everyone was forced to evacuate their homes a day in advance (this would include whole towns, not just people on farms and the like) and the like, but this hasn't been required for the past 20 years, maybe people got complacent and thought they knew better, maybe this was just one of those things you could do fuck all about. But it's a bit harsh to sit on a couch and denigrate these people who have lost a lot, and the authorities who are far more expert when it comes to dealing with these things than we are, and say "you fucking idiots".

[UnSub]

To be fair, every tornado season I wonder why people would live in the US' tornado belt.

My point of view is that this is a tragedy, but if you are going to live in the bush it is good possibility of it happening. Especially when you let big trees grow near your house and don't clean out the gutters.

Historically people have sheltered from fires in their homes (if properly prepared) and been safe. This time everything was too hot, water ran out and that strategy wasn't a good one any more.

[MahrinSkel]

I actually worked fire crew the year that Yellowstone burned up (well, about 30% of it, anyway).  If fires get big enough, they start making their own weather, creating a big high pressure zone where winds are unpredictable but generally very fast along the fringes.  You cross an invisible line and suddenly what was just a big typical forest fire is something completely different.

It actually is possible to protect a remote home surrounded by woods in a forest fire/brush fire in a fairly simple way.  But it takes advance planning, you need a reservoir of water (a few dozen acre-feet), a good irrigation pump and one of the giant sprinklers that can water an entire baseball field (picture a rainbird scaled up to the size of a small cannon)  When the fire is getting close, you just soak everything within 50 yards of your cabin (including the walls and roof of it) and keep doing it until the fire has burned past you.  Then you pay a big-ass fine for unauthorized irrigation, and call it good.

--Dave

[Tale]

This one wasn't so much the fires creating their own weather (which I'm sure they did).

The Australian climate is tropical in the north, dry desert in the middle, and Mediterranean on the lower east and west coasts. Weather travels roughly west-to-east across the continent, which is roughly the size of the USA minus Alaska.

A particularly evil high pressure system or two came in from the Indian Ocean (west), heating up massively as it crossed thousands of kilometres of desert, baking Adelaide with dry heat for days, then baking Melbourne, and the northern tip of it even baked Sydney to the north. This drove a similarly evil low pressure system to the north, which flooded almost the entire northern state of Queensland during the bushfires to the south.

I was in Adelaide (middle south of the continent) at the time this air was heating up, and I felt the strength of the sun there - it felt like we had moved closer to the sun. It was too strong to stand in, and that was in the city. After I left, hot air started to blow across the continent from west of there. Later, I felt it arrive in Sydney (see my posts near the start of this thread). A relentless hot wind - dry desert air, unlike Sydney's normal humid summer weather - was making it feel like Adelaide.

We had 40 degrees C from that, but we were on the northern edge of it. Melbourne and the bushfire areas were bang in the middle of that hot wind. They had 47 degrees C that day. Someone I know who lives near the fire zone measured the temperature standing in the sun, and it was 51 degrees C. That was after two weeks of temperatures mostly in the 40s, and no rain. So the bush was incredibly dry and ready to burn.

In the afternoon, at the point where the air was hottest and the wind was strongest, these bushfires began killing people. Then at about 6pm, a blast of cooler air came in from the south, changing the wind direction and driving the fires in a different direction, killing more.

[Arthur_Parker]

Is this accurate, six metres?

The council's planning laws allow trees to be cleared only when they are within six metres of a house

[Tale]

I don't know, but it looks like that guy cleared about 600 metres! I guess that's one way to survive a bushfire, bulldoze so fucking far that you're no longer a resident of the bush.

[Trippy]

100 meters.

[Arthur_Parker]

Mr Sheahan cleared trees up to 100 metres away from his house.
..
" The elements off our TV antenna melted. We lost a Land Rover, two Subarus, a truck and trailer and two sheds."

As Trippy said 100 metres, even then looks like it was a close thing.  Forcing a six metre limit, seems a bit odd, if true.

[Broughden]

Tale thanks for the info.


From that link Arthur posted....

"We've lost two people in my family because you dickheads won't cut trees down," Warwick Spooner told Nillumbik Mayor Bo Bendtsen at a meeting on Tuesday night.

That is fucking awesome. Its even more awesome that your paper printed it uncensored!


That article clears up some of why there was such a loss of life and property.
A) Fucking 18' clear cutting around a house is ALL that is legally allowed?
B) Must have been some INTENSE heat. When he describes loosing vehicles and such due to melting.

[UnSub]

Eucalyptus trees regrow best if there is a short, intense fire, which is why they actively fuel it with the oil in their leaves. So it was hot, lots of fuel and then a good wind. Things went up fast.

[Tale]

100 meters.

Yeah I was deliberately exaggerating. I don't know what the law there is, because I live in another state with different laws. But if there's a 6 metre rule, it would be intended for the city. Generally we have rules about not chopping down trees in the city. If somebody has extended it to the bush, they're stupid.

[Slayerik]

I'm with Azazel on this one.

My favorite are the people that talk about how great their -insert natural disaster prone- state is. Oh whoops, sorry about that hurricane that hit!

Louisiana...sure, you aren't an idiot for building a home UNDER SEA LEVEL.

Floods in Texas

California - Fires and Quakes

Tornado belt - Tornadoes :)


And the absolute stupid of stupid, are the ones that rebuild right where shit like that has happened. You are an idiot. You deserve to have your stupid house go up in flames/flood/tornado/hurricanes again.


I live in Michigan. It gets cold and shit here. But we don't really have natural disasters and the cold wipes out almost all the nasty shit. I have a friend living in FLA that rags on me, I can't wait for hurricane season :)

[Selby]

Floods in Texas

In all fairness, Texas is so large that it doesn't flood everywhere.  Mostly in the lower elevations of East Texas like Dallas and Houston.  W. Texas almost never floods, and as long as you are south of certain areas, tornado season doesn't really apply to you either.  But then you get to places like Pecos and El Paso, where no one really wants to live anyways as it's just dry dirt 95% of the year.