Mythic Employees Forced onto Waaaaaaaghbulance

[tmp]

Been too long for me since EQ2, but yea, LoTRO combat when I played felt more sluggish than launch-day WAR (after they fixed some things there).

Hmm interesting, the WAR thing reminds me impressions from beta (right before the launch) The fight mostly felt somewhat hollow, in the sense i couldn't make much connection between the keys i've been pressing to activate the abilities and the actual damage done to the mob hp bar. That was minor though, the one thing that really stood out was awkward collision system, the way my character would get stuck on the weirdest things like thin poles and such even though i could swear there's enough space for me to fit.

[Delmania]

I figured he meant Boromir and Theodan.

Yes.

Gollum was the most complex character in the series.

I can agree with this, but again, he died.  The surviving characters within Tolkien's world are really one dimensional.

[Venkman]

Feh, Tolkien's world starts at the beginning of time. The Hobbit-to-RotK timeline is merely one segment. I don't know if Turbine has rights to all Tolkien's works or just the LoTR trilogy, but there's plenty of characters to throw around that are more than just strapping young men with dreams of swords and thrones.

I didn't find Gollum uniquely complex. Schizophrenic and constantly at war with the ring's hold over him against doing the right thing, but the same could be said of all of the ringbearers. Saruman is often written off as the token bad guy, but all he was trying to do was get both sides to play against each other, while being partially controlled by Mordor. Theoden King (good ol' whatshisname) had the same deal and spent the rest of the series seeking vengeance. Heck, his daughter had some depth to her as well.

[Ard]

I don't know if Turbine has rights to all Tolkien's works or just the LoTR trilogy

Just to clear this up really fast, it's very specifically just the trilogy.  They're forbidden from using anything that comes out of the silmarillion or any of the other books at this time.

[Sheepherder]

Feh, Tolkien's world starts at the beginning of time. The Hobbit-to-RotK timeline is merely one segment. I don't know if Turbine has rights to all Tolkien's works or just the LoTR trilogy, but there's plenty of characters to throw around that are more than just strapping young men with dreams of swords and thrones.

People who complain about lack of depth in Tolkien's literature are fucking insane.  It's there, Tolkien just never had a "I should dedicate half of my book to inane chatter, moody introspective bullshit, and tea pouring" phase.

[apocrypha]

People who complain about lack of depth in Tolkien's literature are fucking insane.  It's there, Tolkien just never had a "I should dedicate half of my book to inane chatter, moody introspective bullshit, and tea pouring" phase.

Have you read The Lord of the Rings? There's a reason they left the Tom Bombadil section out of the films - it was as tedious as fuck. Plus, the Silmarilion is pretty much what you describe but with the local Elven Telephone Directory interspersed.

Tolkein wrote great stories and created a great universe but he wrote them really, really, REALLY badly. Lack of depth wasn't his problem, it was simple writing ability.

[ghost]

People who complain about lack of depth in Tolkien's literature are fucking insane.  It's there, Tolkien just never had a "I should dedicate half of my book to inane chatter, moody introspective bullshit, and tea pouring" phase.

Have you read The Lord of the Rings? There's a reason they left the Tom Bombadil section out of the films - it was as tedious as fuck. Plus, the Silmarilion is pretty much what you describe but with the local Elven Telephone Directory interspersed.

Tolkein wrote great stories and created a great universe but he wrote them really, really, REALLY badly. Lack of depth wasn't his problem, it was simple writing ability.

Just because they aren't written in the typical claptrap fashion of Kevin J. Anderson doesn't make them poorly written.  Tolkein doesn't write like a fiction writer, he writes like a historian.  And yes, it can be tedious.

[Hawkbit]

Yeah, I'm in the middle of reading them again as an adult.  They're much deeper than I remembered. 

The films were good, but now that I'm reading the books I'm getting pissed about how much of the sheer amount of story was left out of the movies (or changed).

[WindupAtheist]

Sign me on with the "Tolkien wasn't the best story writer" brigade. Christ, I think we had to read about every single meal the characters ate all along every step of the way. And everyone skips over the songs.

[Venkman]

I don't think people are arguing against that point WUA. It's not easy to get through a Tolkien novel because it's not written using typical storytelling devices. Like ghost said, it's more like an non fiction written with the thin veneer of a narrative, like some contemporary history books about the American 1700s and 1800s.

The world itself was a character, based on how it was formed. The Simarillion is incredibly tedious because it's basically the LoTR story over and over again. But there are sparks of depth throughout that bely the earlier contention that all LoTR characters are one-dimensional set pieces.

Just to clear this up really fast, it's very specifically just the trilogy.  They're forbidden from using anything that comes out of the silmarillion or any of the other books at this time.

Ok that makes sense. So while they can feature artifacts of earlier timelines, they can only do so because the LoTR books do. Which sorta solves their The Hobbit problem too when that movie comes out, since the highlights of that were covered in Fellowship.

[Hawkbit]

Ain't got nothing on Herbert with the Dune series.  Spends 3 pages describing a cave and 10 on a chrysknife.

Still haven't made it through the third book, but damn if I've tried a handful of times.

[raydeen]

Ain't got nothing on Herbert with the Dune series.  Spends 3 pages describing a cave and 10 on a chrysknife.

Still haven't made it through the third book, but damn if I've tried a handful of times.

God, I ate up the Dune books. God Emporer of Dune was a bit hard due to it's sheer size, but I loved it. I really have to try to dig them up again (or at worst, re-purchase) and re-read them. I'll have to have another go at the Silmarillion at some point. I think I was way too young to 'get' it when I first tried. It was too dry compared to the more popular books. I dug the concept, but it was like reading Shakespeare. I like listening to and watching Shakespeare but reading it gives me a splitting headache.

[Modern Angel]

Pretty sure they have The Hobbit, too. Just not the other stuff. I'm hazy on my recollection of the licensing stuff but I think they're technically owned by two separate entities, right? Maybe Chris Tolkien actively has the Silmarillion and others while Tolkien Enterprises has the trilogy and The Hobbit?

If you'll notice, this is how the license always shakes out. GW has Hobbit and Trilogy for the minis game, Decipher had the same for its pen and paper... the only folks I recall having all three were Iron Crown Enterprises way back in the day.

[Tarami]

Ok that makes sense. So while they can feature artifacts of earlier timelines, they can only do so because the LoTR books do. Which sorta solves their The Hobbit problem too when that movie comes out, since the highlights of that were covered in Fellowship.

They only have LotR at the moment, but theoretically they could license the Hobbit aswell, because both are property of Saul Zaentz Company (in form of Tolkien Enterprises.) Everything else (Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, History of M-E et c.) is property of Christopher Tolkien and the Tolkien family (in form of Tolkien Estate), who do not simply license their stuff away.

[Soln]

You gotta give Tolkien this -- he sure knows how to use a semi-colon. 

[ghost]

Ain't got nothing on Herbert with the Dune series.  Spends 3 pages describing a cave and 10 on a chrysknife.

Still haven't made it through the third book, but damn if I've tried a handful of times.

God, I ate up the Dune books. God Emporer of Dune was a bit hard due to it's sheer size, but I loved it. I really have to try to dig them up again (or at worst, re-purchase) and re-read them. I'll have to have another go at the Silmarillion at some point. I think I was way too young to 'get' it when I first tried. It was too dry compared to the more popular books. I dug the concept, but it was like reading Shakespeare. I like listening to and watching Shakespeare but reading it gives me a splitting headache.

God Emperor is actually quite the literary masterpiece.  It is a time of intense dispersion, confusion and general "slowness" of the universe- much the same as how the book itself reads. 

I am happy, in a way, that they continued with the story with the new books, but man Kevin J. Anderson can't write.  It is like reading a romance novel.  I'm not sold on the final ending, either.  Without getting into it for those who haven't read them, I think that is where Herbert was going, but I'm not sure it was supposed to be exactly like Anderson told it.

[Delmania]

I suppose my issue with Tolkien's characters isn't so much a lack of depth as more their one tendency to be very 1 dimensional.  They're either ALL noble and good, like Aragorn and Faramirall evil, like Sauron.  If they're appear to switch sides, it means they're being controlled and end up dead.

[Ratman_tf]

I am happy, in a way, that they continued with the story with the new books, but man Kevin J. Anderson can't write.  It is like reading a romance novel.  I'm not sold on the final ending, either.  Without getting into it for those who haven't read them, I think that is where Herbert was going, but I'm not sure it was supposed to be exactly like Anderson told it.

It's hard to write the kind of mind-bending shit that Herbert sr. engrossed himself in. He had certain themes and topics and a way of writing about them that Brian Herbert and KJA just couldn't replicate. Even in spirit.
That Anderson sucks monkey pole as a writer certainly didn't help. I've only read "Hunters of Dune" and that was quite enough for me. I went to Wiki to find out how they wrapped it up.

[Ratman_tf]

I suppose my issue with Tolkien's characters isn't so much a lack of depth as more their one tendency to be very 1 dimensional.  They're either ALL noble and good, like Aragorn and Faramirall evil, like Sauron.  If they're appear to switch sides, it means they're being controlled and end up dead.

Feanor. Just to bring up one character who wasn't all good or all bad. I'm re-reading the Silmarillion lately. 

[Azazel]

If you'll notice, this is how the license always shakes out. GW has Hobbit and Trilogy for the minis game, Decipher had the same for its pen and paper... the only folks I recall having all three were Iron Crown Enterprises way back in the day.

GW has licenced the lot of them at this point.

[UnSub]

This thread: from WAR to cellar door.

EDIT: because this was better.

[IainC]

Have you read The Lord of the Rings? There's a reason they left the Tom Bombadil section out of the films - it was as tedious as fuck. Plus, the Silmarilion is pretty much what you describe but with the local Elven Telephone Directory interspersed.

Tolkein wrote great stories and created a great universe but he wrote them really, really, REALLY badly. Lack of depth wasn't his problem, it was simple writing ability.

That's because you're comparing Tolkien to modern literature which is wrong. Tolkien wrote heroic epics in the style of Homer, de Troyes and the writers of Norse sagas, he was an awesomely talented writer but you will be disappointed if you're expecting a contemporary style.

[Modern Angel]

GW has licenced the lot of them at this point.

Oh ho ho. I was not aware of that. That allows for some interesting possibilities. Fucking Morgoth and Ungoliant miniatures? They might get me to play it.

[eldaec]

Have you read The Lord of the Rings? There's a reason they left the Tom Bombadil section out of the films - it was as tedious as fuck. Plus, the Silmarilion is pretty much what you describe but with the local Elven Telephone Directory interspersed.

Tolkein wrote great stories and created a great universe but he wrote them really, really, REALLY badly. Lack of depth wasn't his problem, it was simple writing ability.

That's because you're comparing Tolkien to modern literature which is wrong. Tolkien wrote heroic epics in the style of Homer, de Troyes and the writers of Norse sagas, he was an awesomely talented writer but you will be disappointed if you're expecting a contemporary style.

Even on those terms Tom Bombadil was a mess.

Tolkein went to great lengths not to make the central story simple allegory, to use the example of the time, the ring is not nuclear weapons. But he fucks it up on his pet topic of industrialisation vs nature.

[Delmania]

I can't agree that Tolkien wrote the bookd badly, or that he was unable to write in a style that would appeal to more people.  After all, the Hobbit is far more readable than either the Silmarillion or the Lord of the Rings.  He wrote it for his son, Christopher, when he was a boy, but still, I'd say it's more well written than either of the other 2, as well as more self contained.  It draws on elements from the rest of his vision of Middle-earth, but not as extensively as LotR, and it does an excellent job of giving you necessary background information concisely. 

Tom Bombadil, however, well, h's supposed to represent the spirit of the natrual world Tolkien saw disappearing, but in al earnesty, even Tolkien said he wasn't able to develop a good backstory for him.  Also, anti-industrialism was far more than a pet-topic for Tolkien, it was present in almost every story.  Hell, the entire concept of the Middle-earth is just a retelling of the Genesis story with more detailed transition of how we got to now.

[Nebu]

Anyone else find it funny that a thread about Mythic and WAR has generated a discussion about LotR?  I guess that's just a sign of the sad state of WAR. 

[Modern Angel]

Anyone else find it funny that a thread about Mythic and WAR has more generated a discussion about LotR?  I guess that's just a sign of the sad state of WAR. 

I was thinking about that but opted not to question it.

[Tarami]

GW has licenced the lot of them at this point.

Source? I can't find anything suggesting GW has licensed anything from Tolkien Estate.

[sam, an eggplant]

Anyone else find it funny that a thread about Mythic and WAR has generated a discussion about LotR?  I guess that's just a sign of the sad state of WAR.

I dunno, there was plenty of nerdrage in the first couple of pages. I think the flames burned themselves out. What we really need to keep this thread going is for some magnificent bastard to come in and opine that all those guys at mythic deserved to lose their jobs because they were lazy, stupid, and smelled like goats, and then get flamed to charcoal from lum. That would be worth a couple of pages, at least, before degenerating into multiple separate disjointed discussions about the economy, what to do about the AIDS epidemic in sub-saharan africa, the columbine effect, abortion, jack thompson, the sad state of gaming journalism, and who to blame for high fructose corn syrup.

[HaemishM]

and who to blame for high fructose corn syrup.

The fucking corn elves.

[tmp]

Have you read The Lord of the Rings? There's a reason they left the Tom Bombadil section out of the films - it was as tedious as fuck. Plus, the Silmarilion is pretty much what you describe but with the local Elven Telephone Directory interspersed.

Tolkein wrote great stories and created a great universe but he wrote them really, really, REALLY badly. Lack of depth wasn't his problem, it was simple writing ability.

Lot of it is probably effect of 'different writing for different times' -- nowadays anything longer than 3 lines per paragraph is tl;dr. Parts of Tolkien's writing are 'tedious' by our standards and expectations, but compare that to say, Les Miserables with its constant dozen levels of distractions that take 50+ pages to wrap up each, and Tolkien is suddenly stellar example of brevity and focus. Attention span of the readers can change over 50-100 years to a surprising degree.

[Sheepherder]

Attention span of the readers can change over 50-100 years to a surprising degree.

I blame the fact that the majority of the western world seems to embrace their own stupidity and illiteracy.  I grind my teeth when I hear college kids unwilling to read Crime and Punishment because it's too verbose.

[Hawkbit]

Attention span of the readers can change over 50-100 years to a surprising degree.

I blame the fact that the majority of the western world seems to embrace their own stupidity and illiteracy.  I grind my teeth when I hear college kids unwilling to read Crime and Punishment because it's too verbose.

That's some of it.  There's other factors as well.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200807/google

As I've said before, I'm a librarian and we're in a constant change state now because of the internet.  It's changing the face of what libraries are used for, and it's changing how we think and memorize things.  There's not much need to memorize things when we have instant access to the information, so our brains can wire themselves to being more adept at actually finding the information instead of storing it. 

Good or bad, we'll see. 

[Ratman_tf]

Anyone else find it funny that a thread about Mythic and WAR has generated a discussion about LotR?  I guess that's just a sign of the sad state of WAR. 

We had a thread go from Richard Garriot to the practicality of mecha in the real world. I don't blame WAR. 

[Trippy]

GW has licenced the lot of them at this point.

Source? I can't find anything suggesting GW has licensed anything from Tolkien Estate.

That's cause they are licensed through Tolkien Enterprises. GW has licenses from both New Line and Tolkien Enterprises for their Lord of the Rings miniatures game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien_Enterprises

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=3800002