Advice on a new rig

[Yoru]

For RAM my next machine will most likely have 8 GB. I really really hate the way Windows manages virtual memory so spending some extra money to keep it from swapping is worth it to me. 3D games will easily eat up 1 GB of RAM by themselves. I run Firefox and Opera and both together will eat up 1.5 GB+ of RAM. With the OS itself and other stuff running I'm easily using 3.5+ GB of RAM/virtual memory so even if I had 4 GB of RAM I would still be swapping to disk. If you don't mind the swapping then 4 GB of RAM should be okay unless your Photoshop files are very large.

I recently built a machine, but I'm not going to get involved with the tech talk. But I did go for more RAM for these exact reasons above.... but that all hinges on running a 64 bit OS, right? I was led to believe in my poking around the internet that unless you run Vista 64 (or OSX) anything over ~3.5 gigs is completely ignored by the computer. Running a 64 bit OS will let all your programs see the extra RAM, even though if they are 32 bit programs they can't actually USE all the RAM. Is that right?

yes. I run Vista home premium 64 bit with 8 gigs of RAM

Mostly correct. The 64-bit OS will allow your OS to allocate out chunks from the full 4+ GB of RAM. However, if you're running 32-bit apps on your 64-bit OS, each 32-bit app can individually address no more than 4GB of RAM. If you're running apps compiled for 64-bit, as a few games are these days, then they can address however much you can throw at them.

Well, up to 8 TB at least. And if you have 8+ TB of RAM in your system, then I phear your power bill.

[NiX]

By the way, when are you looking to make this purchase? I re-read your first post and realized that if you need to check with your school regarding discounted Vista, that it may be a little while yet. Stock levels today wouldn't mean much is the impression I'm getting, more importantly meaning that the EVGA 600mhz version of the 9800gt may be in stock. But at least now you have some backup versions to look at for the 9800 card.

Typically with Canada Computers if the stocks are all sitting at 0 except for 2-3 stores, they're discontinuing the stocking of that specific item. They stay well stocked on the stuff that sells well for them. They don't operate like most places where it's OOS for a week and back another. Frustrating as all hell, but their prices and staff are good enough to warrant putting up with it.

Oh and I'm probably picking it up early/late next week.

[Righ]

And if you have 8+ TB of RAM in your system, then I phear your power, Bill.

FIFY.

NiX, did you look at Dell Canada? The Studio desktop with that processor & a 9800GT is right at $800. If there's a special at the right moment, you could score a saving. Otherwise I'd just stick with BYO.

[NiX]

Does SATAII drives require a mobo with SATAII?

[Trippy]

Does SATAII drives require a mobo with SATAII?

No, they are backwards compatible with SATA/150 controllers.

[NiX]

Ok, this is the plan now after looking at stocks and how consistent they are:

Antec 300 Gaming Case Core 2 Duo E8400 3GHZ Asus P5Q Corsair XMS2 4GB WD Cavier 500GB EVGA GeForce 9800GT Cooler Master 600W

$70 $204 $160 $78 $74 $170 $76

Total: $832 (w/ tax: $940)
Trippy, what would you suggest as a better video card that wouldn't push the budget too much? I'm giving myself to $1000 now heh.

[Goreschach]

You might want to consider waiting a couple weeks. Rumor has it that Intel has a price cut coming at the end of January in response to the PII launch. Unfortunately I don't know what lines the drops will be to.

[Trippy]

Total: $832 (w/ tax: $940)
Trippy, what would you suggest as a better video card that wouldn't push the budget too much? I'm giving myself to $1000 now heh.

Canada Computers is busted right now so I can't see prices but GTX 260 would be good if it's within the budget or an ATI 4870 if you are willing to go with ATI.

[Reg]

Don't forget you're going to need a copy of Vista 64 to go with that. Your system is exactly what I got a week ago except I went for a Radeon 4850 for an extra 30 dollars. One nice thing, they accidentally gave me an Antec 900 instead of the 300 and didn't charge me extra.

[NiX]

I'm going to be cheap and run the Windows 7 beta.

[Yegolev]

Hey, can I jump into this?  I am starting the re-education process in anticipation of building a new rig.

Those Nehalem are expensive, at least the 3.2GHz and 2.9GHz are, while the 2.66GHz is actually reasonable.  Doing a quick compare on newegg shows they are identical except for clock and QPI.  What is QPI?  I don't think I care a great deal and the cheap one looks fine.  Am I missing something?

The motherboard seems dead-simple.  This EVGA gets lots of high marks.  The layout is a tad suspicious with the power leads on top of the RAM slots like that, but firstly it seems that is just the standard setup and secondly my experience with mobos is that the layout usually gets more retarded every cycle.  I suppose an alternate to the EVGA would be the standard ASUS P6T, but the EVGA looks better on paper.

ATi scares the crap out of me but I'm thinking of a random ATi 4870.  That's the one all the kids are going on about, yes?  The VisionTek has the good ratings.

The other bits are inconsequential.  Crucial RAM, WD SATA, some sort of trusted PSU.  Seems like I'm forgetting something, though.

[SnakeCharmer]

Wait and see what comes out in terms of Dx11 support for video cards?  Or something?

Edit:  I don't know really.  I still kind of regret going quad core over dual core.  So, don't listen to me.

[NiX]

Reading up on these Intel rumors, it would seem only the Quad core line is expected to get a cut to compete with AMD's new Phenom chip. Worth waiting it out to see if anything happens?

[Trippy]

Hey, can I jump into this?  I am starting the re-education process in anticipation of building a new rig.

Those Nehalem are expensive, at least the 3.2GHz and 2.9GHz are, while the 2.66GHz is actually reasonable.  Doing a quick compare on newegg shows they are identical except for clock and QPI.  What is QPI?  I don't think I care a great deal and the cheap one looks fine.  Am I missing something?

Basically QPI is Intel's version of HyperTransport which AMD uses. I.e. they've finally moved away from sending everything up and down the FSB:

http://www.intel.com/technology/quickpath/

In the desktop single physical CPU world it's not that big a deal, at the moment. In the multiple physical CPU server world, though, it makes a big difference and it's one of the main reasons why AMD is so competitive in the server marketplace.

[NowhereMan]

In terms of games is there likely to be much of an advantage in waiting a while and grabbing a slightly cheaper i7 or just go straight for a Core Duo (since the Quads don't seem to offer a huge advantage for gaming)?

[BitWarrior]

I'm going to be cheap and run the Windows 7 beta.

From the download:

The Beta will stop working on August 1, 2009. To continue using your PC, please be prepared to reinstall a prior version of Windows or a subsequent release of Windows 7 before the expiration date. You won’t be able to upgrade from the Beta to the final retail version of Windows 7.

Obviously you've got some time, but I figure I'd mention it.

[Trippy]

In terms of games is there likely to be much of an advantage in waiting a while and grabbing a slightly cheaper i7 or just go straight for a Core Duo (since the Quads don't seem to offer a huge advantage for gaming)?

Depends on how low they drop the price. For current games at best there's a very small advantage with the i7.

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/intel/showdoc.aspx?i=3448&p=19

[Salamok]

In terms of games is there likely to be much of an advantage in waiting a while and grabbing a slightly cheaper i7 or just go straight for a Core Duo (since the Quads don't seem to offer a huge advantage for gaming)?

but the i7 vs. core 2 duo reviews show the i7 package solidly on top (in games and everything else), then again the difference between smokin fast and smokin faster isn't always perceptable to the end user.

Hey, can I jump into this?  I am starting the re-education process in anticipation of building a new rig.

Those Nehalem are expensive, at least the 3.2GHz and 2.9GHz are, while the 2.66GHz is actually reasonable.  Doing a quick compare on newegg shows they are identical except for clock and QPI.  What is QPI?  I don't think I care a great deal and the cheap one looks fine.  Am I missing something?

The motherboard seems dead-simple.  This EVGA gets lots of high marks.  The layout is a tad suspicious with the power leads on top of the RAM slots like that, but firstly it seems that is just the standard setup and secondly my experience with mobos is that the layout usually gets more retarded every cycle.  I suppose an alternate to the EVGA would be the standard ASUS P6T, but the EVGA looks better on paper.

ATi scares the crap out of me but I'm thinking of a random ATi 4870.  That's the one all the kids are going on about, yes?  The VisionTek has the good ratings.

If I was looking at a total rebuild drives and all i'd be mighty tempted to try out the 60g flavor of that new sandisk SSD for the OS drive and pair it with some cheap mass storage.

apparently these are available for purchase now.

The other bits are inconsequential.  Crucial RAM, WD SATA, some sort of trusted PSU.  Seems like I'm forgetting something, though.

motherboard, cpu, vid card, psu, ram, hard drives...  maybe a case, dvd burner and an aftermarket cpu cooler.

[ffc]

ATi scares the crap out of me but I'm thinking of a random ATi 4870. 

I was recently deciding between the 4870 and the 4850 - I went with this 4850 when it was paired with a rebate a few months back (still waiting for the rebate though).  I chose this one over other 4850's because of the nice fan.  It is whisper quiet in my case, stays cool and runs Dead Space at full everything with no problems.

Here's a random question I have - does anyone have a recommendation for a good (in terms of range, responsiveness and charge duration) bluetooth keyboard and/or mouse?  I want to surf porn play games from my couch for under $100 total.  I'll live if there is no numpad on the keyboard, and if I have to go over $100 for good stuff, I will.

[Yegolev]

The 4870 is south of "hideously expensive" so I'll probably go with that for tech reasons, crossing my fingers and hoping the Catalyst version I get is not garbage... I haven't been accumulating ATi drivers for years.  Note that I did not mention a budget.

Basically QPI is Intel's version of HyperTransport which AMD uses. I.e. they've finally moved away from sending everything up and down the FSB:

http://www.intel.com/technology/quickpath/

Oh, it's NUMA.  About time.  Maybe Intel or AMD will have a hypervisor by 2016.  Also "microarchitecture" is a funny word.  In any case, seems like I should get the cheap i7.  I can't think of a reason to get a 2-core instead of a 4-core, especially if there is such a reduction in memory/IO access overhead as the whitepaper suggests.

If I was looking at a total rebuild drives and all i'd be mighty tempted to try out the 60g flavor of that new sandisk SSD for the OS drive and pair it with some cheap mass storage.

apparently these are available for purchase now.

Tempting but I think I will save this bit of tech for the upgrade of my gaming rig.

[fuser]

Ok, this is the plan now after looking at stocks and how consistent they are:

EVGA GeForce 9800GT

$170

$170 is insane for the 9800gt, heck even before MIR http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=34749&promoid=1088 it's $144.

Shop around a bit, you should be able to knock a bit off that price and NCIX should be able to pricematch parts, Looking at your quick list you will save at least ~$100 with them (dunno about the balancing out of shipping in your case, buy the heavy stuff locally?).

[NiX]

It's $160  before MIR. They're having a promo on where they knock off $15. It's really not that expensive considering it goes 9800GT(X), 260 and then 280. The 9800 is the new 8800 and people were paying ~$150 no more than 4-6 months ago for those.

[SnakeCharmer]

If I was looking at a total rebuild drives and all i'd be mighty tempted to try out the 60g flavor of that new sandisk SSD for the OS drive and pair it with some cheap mass storage.

apparently these are available for purchase now.

How much difference is the average user going to see from this SSD stuff?

If I open up AoC, if the difference is a couple seconds, I can't see it really being worth it.  At what point does something else become the bottleneck?  Where's the benefit?  I'm genuinely curious about it. 

[Salamok]

If I was looking at a total rebuild drives and all i'd be mighty tempted to try out the 60g flavor of that new sandisk SSD for the OS drive and pair it with some cheap mass storage.

apparently these are available for purchase now.

How much difference is the average user going to see from this SSD stuff?

If I open up AoC, if the difference is a couple seconds, I can't see it really being worth it.  At what point does something else become the bottleneck?  Where's the benefit?  I'm genuinely curious about it. 

I would say that hard drive speed is the biggest bottleneck on most computers.  I suppose once they start exceeding what the SATA pipe can handle that will become the new bottleneck.  If the hype is to be believed this could actually happen at the consumer level this year.

edit: The current SATA standard is SATA 3Gb/s and has a throughput of 300MB per second.  There is a new SATA standard (SATA 6Gb/s) that will double that to 600MB per second but there aren't any devices that support that yet.

edit2: the other beneficial side effects are the huge reductions in size/noise/heat/power consumption.

[SnakeCharmer]

Cool.  Thanks for the info. 

I'd been looking at stuff to upgrade my rig with even though I don't need to.  Just to do it, I suppose.  I haven't found a game yet I can't run on max and not see +30fps.  So this might be something to look at, along with another 4GB or RAM.

Or something.  I dunno.  Smart thing to do is to wait another couple years since there's really nothing on the horizon I've got on a MUST HAVE NOW! list.

[Evil Elvis]

The biggest benefit to SSD is the fact that there's no mechanical arm to move.  This gives it superior performance in seek times and random access reads/writes to your disk.  However, reads/writes to concurrent sectors on a disk are no better than a traditional HDD, and might even be slower.

I wouldn't consider power consumption to be benefit at this point, as a lot of SSD's require power even when they're not in use.

SSD is probably the future, but i won't be buying one until the price is more in line with HDD's.

[Salamok]

Cool.  Thanks for the info. 

I'd been looking at stuff to upgrade my rig with even though I don't need to.  Just to do it, I suppose.  I haven't found a game yet I can't run on max and not see +30fps.  So this might be something to look at, along with another 4GB or RAM.

Or something.  I dunno.  Smart thing to do is to wait another couple years since there's really nothing on the horizon I've got on a MUST HAVE NOW! list.

You probably wont see a FPS increase with a faster hard drive.  You will see faster start up and level load times and anything that hits your swap file will be sped up.

The biggest benefit to SSD is the fact that there's no mechanical arm to move.  This gives it superior performance in seek times and random access reads/writes to your disk.  However, reads/writes to concurrent sectors on a disk are no better than a traditional HDD, and might even be slower.

I wouldn't consider power consumption to be benefit at this point, as a lot of SSD's require power even when they're not in use.

SSD is probably the future, but i won't be buying one until the price is more in line with HDD's.

The newer SSDs and stuff hitting within then mext 6 months have done a lot to overcome the "reads/writes to concurrent sectors" problems.  After decades of waiting 2009 looks like it might finally be the year of the SSD, who knows maybe we will see a large enough performance increase to shake the foundations of the PC industry.

[Miguel]

In terms of case fans, I would swap whatever comes with the case with Panaflo or Scythe fans wired to run off of the 5V rail (or 7V between the 12V rail and the 5V rail).  I did a silent PC setup using Panaflo's @ 5V and they are damn near silent. 

I got a handful of the 92mm and 120mm fans and re-wired them to run off 5V.  They put out nearly the same airflow at 5V as compared to 12V, but run significantly quieter (nearly silent).

SilectPCReview maintains a list of silent fans that is a good resource.  Their PSU database is also very handy for making your PC quieter.

[fuser]

It's $160  before MIR. They're having a promo on where they knock off $15. It's really not that expensive considering it goes 9800GT(X), 260 and then 280. The 9800 is the new 8800 and people were paying ~$150 no more than 4-6 months ago for those.

Cool, It's just where you had it listed at $170 :)

In regards to the price cuts

Intel (INTC) plans to cut prices on its quad-core, dual-core and Xeon processors on January 18, according to Pacific Crest analyst Michael McConnell. He sees cuts of 15%-40% on quad-core processors, 13% on dual-core chips and 15%-40% on Xeon quad-core server processors. He contends the timing of the cuts is unique, with scheduled price cuts typically occurring in April and October.

With nvidia also taking a pounding this quarter (40-50% revenue drop) pricing will probably drop even further across the board.

[NiX]

Well, fuck me, I just bought the system. Maybe they do price matching post purchase. Oh well otherwise. I'm happy!

[schild]

Well, fuck me, I just bought the system. Maybe they do price matching post purchase. Oh well otherwise. I'm happy!

If they don't just return it all and buy it again

[NiX]

Hard to return a CPU that's already been put on the motherboard. Return policies up here aren't that lax.

Also, thanks to everyone who provided suggestions and advice!

[NiX]

One last thing: A monitor. I figure with the new graphics card and having a HUGE desk now, I want a bigger monitor.

Right now I'm using an Acer 19" widescreen (AL1916W). Want to move up to either 22" or 24" as I do most of my movie and TV watching on my computer. HDMI input isn't necessary, but would be a plus if I could get the monitor for under $400 with it, but I'm sure that's unrealistic. I really don't know the first thing about contrast ratios, bit depth or color ranges. I do understand refresh and viewing angle, knowing that the former is important for games/video and the latter for slouching.

[Righ]

Actually $400 puts you in the price range of a decent 24" wide-screen LCD monitor with 1920x1200 resolution, fast response time and good contrast. If you're an art freak and need better color and viewing angles more than you need size and resolution, you might want to consider a smaller S-PVA based monitor though.

[Engels]

One last thing: A monitor. I figure with the new graphics card and having a HUGE desk now, I want a bigger monitor.

Right now I'm using an Acer 19" widescreen (AL1916W). Want to move up to either 22" or 24" as I do most of my movie and TV watching on my computer. HDMI input isn't necessary, but would be a plus if I could get the monitor for under $400 with it, but I'm sure that's unrealistic. I really don't know the first thing about contrast ratios, bit depth or color ranges. I do understand refresh and viewing angle, knowing that the former is important for games/video and the latter for slouching.

Its about your budget, really. Most TN monitors that I've seen are not good for movie viewing. You'd want an IPS or PVA monitor, as Righ said. However, these tend to be a bit more pricy, and the trade off is that you don't get the lightning fast response time for video games (although ghosting is rarely an issue with any of them cept for some very high end ones that are meant for photoediting exclusively).

You're always reasonably safe with either a Dell or an NEC. That's just my opinion, however. Some folks here love their Samsungs, but I don't like how bright they are. Your best bet is to go out and look at some; its the only test that really matters. Monitors can say all sorts of things on paper, but the proof is in the pudding.