WOTLK raid progression.

[Merusk]

I've seen 25 pugged without a single death.

Doing the stand-in-the-corner x-ploit, amirite?

[Ratman_tf]

I've seen 25 pugged without a single death.

Doing the stand-in-the-corner x-ploit, amirite?

We did it without the exploit, on the grounds that if they ever fix it, we'll never have practiced it 'right'.

[Sheepherder]

Doing the stand-in-the-corner x-ploit, amirite?

Was talking about Sartharion + 1.  I wasn't playing, just watching over my brother's shoulder.  Still have no clue how they managed it when my server seems to produce innumerable 400 DPS death knights to pug with.

[K9]

I've seen 25 pugged without a single death.

Doing the stand-in-the-corner x-ploit, amirite?

We did it without the exploit, on the grounds that if they ever fix it, we'll never have practiced it 'right'.

It's been fixed

[Draegan]

Did my first 25 man naxx tonight, guild decided to take the 11 of us and PUG the rest. 

It's serious, serious bullshit that the fights were measurably easier and the loot is so much better.  It's not like we had a bunch of overgeared puggies either, as my ass was usually in the top 5 on bosses. (Top 3 at the end, but who counts trash)

Hows blood tanking?

[Merusk]

I wouldn't know.  I'm typically Unholy but I specce'd blood last night to test out the changes but with the wintergrasp crash-of-doom bug I wasn't able to do so.

 I'm in my shittyass "lol off-tank" gear because someone asked me what I could get my armor to now with the changes to frost presence.  That's not even my best armor value set, as I was swapping in and out pieces when I decided to give up for the night after another crash.

[Paelos]

Sartharion Strat using stuffed animals

 

[Trippy]

LOL @ Restoration Druid.

[Ironwood]

Patchwerk.  Really, really not fun.

 

[K9]

25-man patch?

Got the safety dance achievemtn tonight after BLizzard fixed the corner exploit so the rest of my guild had to learn the dance. Currently working on Sapphiron. Hardest fight in Naxx from a healer pov certainly, we keep getting chills on top of ice tombs which screws us over. Anyone got any advice (normal).

[Paelos]

Patchwerk.  Really, really not fun.

 

The 25 man version is really one of the worst parts of the whole place. It's not terribly technical, it's not about skill or coordination, it's simply about tossing some meat in front of a guy that hits like a mach truck and praying your healers can keep up.

Essentially, it's like most of the shitty BC fights.

EDIT: I'll even go further. "Rape the tank" fights aren't fun. They are the dumbest things ever created. Fights that figure out how to involve the entire raid and use different skills, those are your memorable fights. Those are the ones you enjoy learning and fighting and winning. The Military wing is a good example.

[Fabricated]

Patchwerk doesn't...well, work in terms of scaling.

Naxx 10 and 25 are supposedly designed to be done in the same starting equipment, i.e. ilevel 200 blues ideally. Even if you set a baseline really pointlessly high like "full ilevel 200 epics" the problem is the same. Tanks have negligibly different HP, and since you have roughly twice as many healers, you have to ramp up the damage to make it even remotely difficult. Since the gear differences are so small however you end up with tanks nearly being instagibbed every 4-5 seconds.

[caladein]

As a healer, I Patchwerk.  If your DPS sucks, you die.  If your healers suck, you die.  If your tanks suck, you die.  I'm not sure how that doesn't "involve" the raid.

The only fight that I feel the same way about is Gothik.  On Patchwerk, essentially half your DPS/healers can make up the slack of the other half, but that falls apart hilariously on Gothik.  The rest of military is "Hope your Priests don't suck." and "Hope your back group doesn't fail."

[Gobbeldygook]

Naxx 10 and 25 are supposedly designed to be done in the same starting equipment, i.e. ilevel 200 blues ideally. Even if you set a baseline really pointlessly high like "full ilevel 200 epics" the problem is the same. Tanks have negligibly different HP, and since you have roughly twice as many healers, you have to ramp up the damage to make it even remotely difficult. Since the gear differences are so small however you end up with tanks nearly being instagibbed every 4-5 seconds.

Blizzard's ahead of you there.  The real danger in patchwerk isn't how hard he hits his main aggro target, it's his hateful strikes.  Every time Patch-25 hateful strikes, he looks at the health of tank #2 and #3, picks whoever has more, and pimp-slaps them.  This means he can hit extraordinarily hard (ie challenge the healers) because he has to blow through two entire tanks worth of health before he kills someone.

[Ironwood]

As a healer, I Patchwerk.  If your DPS sucks, you die.  If your healers suck, you die.  If your tanks suck, you die.  I'm not sure how that doesn't "involve" the raid.

The only fight that I feel the same way about is Gothik.  On Patchwerk, essentially half your DPS/healers can make up the slack of the other half, but that falls apart hilariously on Gothik.  The rest of military is "Hope your Priests don't suck." and "Hope your back group doesn't fail."

Um, you're on drugs.   As the dancing monkey said (and he's a tank) it's not a fun fight for a tank.  There's no 'sucking' involved.  We just fucking stand there.  I am eager to hear what skill you think I require to do 'better.'

[caladein]

As a healer, I Patchwerk.  If your DPS sucks, you die.  If your healers suck, you die.  If your tanks suck, you die.  I'm not sure how that doesn't "involve" the raid.

The only fight that I feel the same way about is Gothik.  On Patchwerk, essentially half your DPS/healers can make up the slack of the other half, but that falls apart hilariously on Gothik.  The rest of military is "Hope your Priests don't suck." and "Hope your back group doesn't fail."

Um, you're on drugs.   As the dancing monkey said (and he's a tank) it's not a fun fight for a tank.  There's no 'sucking' involved.  We just fucking stand there.  I am eager to hear what skill you think I require to do 'better.'

As a tank, all you do is get the crap beaten out of you for four+ minutes on Patchwerk.  It's not a fight where a tank can expressly wipe the raid (failing screw-ups in the pull), but it's not like the tanks are a non-factor in downing him.

If a HS tank(s) can't produce enough Threat while having enough Health to avoid being gibbed he either a) gets gibbed and you wipe or b) slows the DPS down to the point that you hit Berserk and wipe.

If the DPS aren't Threat-capped to the point of hitting the Berserk timer and the Healers are able to do their jobs (which just comes down to raw health for HS), the Tanks are "not sucking".  This is the case the vast, vast majority of the time.

Just like the threshold for Healers is "Did people who weren't doing something stupid die?" the bar is not very high, but it still exists (and fails to be met occasionally).

[K9]

Naxx 10 and 25 are supposedly designed to be done in the same starting equipment, i.e. ilevel 200 blues ideally. Even if you set a baseline really pointlessly high like "full ilevel 200 epics" the problem is the same. Tanks have negligibly different HP, and since you have roughly twice as many healers, you have to ramp up the damage to make it even remotely difficult. Since the gear differences are so small however you end up with tanks nearly being instagibbed every 4-5 seconds.

Blizzard's ahead of you there.  The real danger in patchwerk isn't how hard he hits his main aggro target, it's his hateful strikes.  Every time Patch-25 hateful strikes, he looks at the health of tank #2 and #3, picks whoever has more, and pimp-slaps them.  This means he can hit extraordinarily hard (ie challenge the healers) because he has to blow through two entire tanks worth of health before he kills someone.

Patchwerk chooses his hateful targets based on threat not HP.

[Ironwood]

I'm sorry, but HAVING HEALTH and Generating Threat are not really things that a tank has all that much control over.

If he's a good tank, he'll have his optimum threat rotation worked out Waaaaaay before he hits level 80.

As I said, this is a fight that has fuck all to do with tanking and DPS and whatnot.  It's about healer reaction time and, here's the big one, it's a goddamn static GEAR CHECK.

Not fun.

They may as well just count the stats on your items and let you through or not.

[Gobbeldygook]

Patchwerk chooses his hateful targets based on threat not HP.

That is what I said: In Patch 25, he hatefuls tanks #2 and #3 based on their health.  They wouldn't be much of a tank if they weren't #2 and #3 on the threat list (especially with Patch's special aggro mechanics).

[Ironwood]

That's not what you said

he looks at the health of tank #2 and #3, picks whoever has more

No, he doesn't.

 

[Hindenburg]

Hateful Strike
Melee Range
Instant
Deals 79000 to 81000 damage to a threatening target with the highest health within melee range.

 

[Merusk]

Hateful Strike
Melee Range
Instant
Deals 79000 to 81000 damage to a threatening target with the highest health within melee range.

 

Yeah, having eaten a hateful despite being #5 on the threat list I learned real quick to 'dance in the slime' when my health gets above 75%.

[Ironwood]

What's the average health of an 80 rogue these days ?

[Ironwood]

Yeah, having eaten a hateful despite being #5 on the threat list I learned real quick to 'dance in the slime' when my health gets above 75%.

Surely you jest.

[Oban]

What's the average health of an 80 rogue these days ?

0

[Ironwood]

I'm missing a maths joke here, aren't I ?

[Oban]

Most rogues are dead.

[Merusk]

Yeah, having eaten a hateful despite being #5 on the threat list I learned real quick to 'dance in the slime' when my health gets above 75%.

Surely you jest.

I do not. It was one of our first runs through Naxx, and DKs run around with 19-21k hps raid buffed in DPS gear.  I'm not that far behind the tanks at that point, hateful tank didn't get topped completly off on one hateful, putting him below me and the next one gibbed me.  So yeah, I dance in the slime now.

[Sheepherder]

Surely you jest.

http://www.bosskillers.com/cgi-bin/bbguild/index.cgi?action=view_guide&guide_id=532&sid=pkjEEbdTUP
http://www.worldofstrats.com/Patchwerk/tabid/110/Default.aspx

TL;DR: Both say it's goes Melee DPS -> Highest Health -> Highest Threat when determining the target.  The bosskillers guide recommends using the slime momentarily to drop your health.  From experience experimenting with the slime and being in a raid with paladins who can't seem to grasp the idea that they're not supposed to Judge Light I'd have to say that what I have seen is pretty consistent with what is written.

[Ironwood]

Ouch.  Fair enough ;  I just find it strange that a viable tactic on a boss is to wander into the corner and quietly cut your own throat.

 

[Ratman_tf]

Ouch.  Fair enough ;  I just find it strange that a viable tactic on a boss is to wander into the corner and quietly cut your own throat.

 

Yeah, but wierd shit manuvers are gonna pop up from time to time in any battles that aren't totally vanilla tank n' spank.

I don't... hate Patchwerk. I do think he's a pretty boring boss. (and thankfully quick) I reserve my hatred for Grobbulous. Latency and stupid check all rolled up into one boss. God forbid one person out of 25 lag out and/or plop a fart on the party. 

[Montague]

Surely you jest.

http://www.bosskillers.com/cgi-bin/bbguild/index.cgi?action=view_guide&guide_id=532&sid=pkjEEbdTUP
http://www.worldofstrats.com/Patchwerk/tabid/110/Default.aspx

TL;DR: Both say it's goes Melee DPS -> Highest Health -> Highest Threat when determining the target.  The bosskillers guide recommends using the slime momentarily to drop your health.  From experience experimenting with the slime and being in a raid with paladins who can't seem to grasp the idea that they're not supposed to Judge Light I'd have to say that what I have seen is pretty consistent with what is written.

Both of those articles are wrong.

In a 25 man, Hateful Strike will hit the highest hp melee who is 2nd or 3rd on the threat list. Being hateful striked will add large amounts of threat to everyone on the top 3 of the threat list to help keep them up there.

If melee are getting gibbed and the tanks are still alive one of two things are happening: Either the tanks got a (un)lucky evasion streak and hateful strike was evaded a few times in a row and they lost threat, or one of the tanks was slacking and wasn't throwing up sunders, judgments, whatever threat moves they have.

Judgment of Light is not supposed to be used in Patchwerk true, but that's because it's bugged and deals out massive threat in 25 mans. It was supposed to be fixed but no idea if they have yet.

[Dewdrop]

And while that is viable its certainly not required.. I raid a DK and fully buffed I'm over 25K hp easy and have never stepped in the slime on this fight. Tanks have 36-40K. If melee die on this fight the healers aren't doing their job. This fight is 2 parts: Healers top off tanks ASAP and 1 part: DPS him before he berserk's. I give tanks 2-3 seconds to get established and dive in.. Me and the other DK in the raid have the highest HP by far of the melee dps and neither of us has ever eaten a Hateful.

[Soulflame]

I ate a hateful strike on Patchwerk this weekend... but that's because the hateful strike tank intercepted our boomkin right at the start.

*looks pointedly at Gobbeldygook*

[Ingmar]

I actually hate (10 man) Razuvious more than any other fight, mostly because of everything in there - every boss fight I've ever personally done in the game maybe - it is more a fight against the interface than a fight against the monsters.

Patchwerk doesn't bother me. There's a place for fights where dps gets to see just how well they can unload in a static situation.