The Second MMO

[Baldrake]

Fred Brooks coined the term "the second system effect" to describe what happens when developers are given the green light to come up with a successor to an originally successful system. Developers will want to start from a clean code base to use the newest technologies and standards, will want to add all the features that would have been nice in the original, and generally conceive an overly ambitious system that has high risk of failing.

There is some evidence that this happens in the MMO space.

• SWG, Raph's second MMO was really an attempt to do UO right, but was so ambitious that when the game shut down years later (replaced with NGE), there were still major systems that didn't work correctly.
• Mark Jacob's second MMO (Imperator) never made it our the door. WAR, his second shipped MMO was a clear attempt to do DAOC right, and failed from too many complex systems that were hard to balance and implement correctly.
  
• Richard Garriot's second MMO (TR) was an overly ambitious mess that wound up being thrown out and stripped back to the disappointing game that shipped.
• Vanguard was Brad McQuaid's disastrous successor to EQ.

Is this really a trend? Are there examples of people who have designed and shipped a second successful MMO?

[schild]

I'm posting this from the future: Blizzard.

They just fix what everyone else fails at.

[Sophismata]

• Mark Jacob's second MMO (Imperator) never made it our the door. WAR, his second shipped MMO was a clear attempt to do DAOC right, and failed from too many complex systems that were hard to balance and implement correctly.
  

Actually, WAR struck me as a clear attempt to avoid doing anything DAoC got right, and was thus doomed to fail before any game systems even entered the picture.

[apocrypha]

Calling it now: CCP's 2nd MMO will follow this trend to the letter.

There's another part to this phenomenon too. The release of the 2nd MMO will spell the death of the 1st MMO as well. As Schild says, Blizzard will be the exception.

[FatuousTwat]

Don't you see?! WoW is MMO 2.0! IT HAS CAUSED THE DEATH OF ALL OTHER MMOS!


(Sleep deprived, sorry.)

[Raph]

I have often thought of SWG as suffering from Second System, actually. Which according to Brooks bodes well for Metaplace.

[Ubvman]

Calling it now: CCP's 2nd MMO will follow this trend to the letter.

There's another part to this phenomenon too. The release of the 2nd MMO will spell the death of the 1st MMO as well. As Schild says, Blizzard will be the exception.

I don't think so.

EQ1 has TWO successors, EQ2 and Vanguard. EQ1 still chugs along fine with new expansions every year (whether players want them or not) whereas Vanguard is basically on refrigerated life support. Has EQ2's numbers ever exceeded EQ1 550K peak? AC1 outlived AC2 - AC2 being another obvious example of the "second system effect".

I think the better conclusion is that the second system (aka MMO) from the SAME SET of devs will almost always result in an over engineered POS.

[schild]

I think the better conclusion is that the second system (aka MMO) from the SAME SET of devs will almost always result in an over engineered POS.

Not necessarily. There's a good argument to be made that many of the designers on MMOGs didn't even know how to design a good game before they made an MMOG, and after making one they still don't know. I expect to see great things from the genre once some unexpected players join the game. Of course, that might be wrong also and we're doomed to playing crap inbetween Blizzard titles. The former is more likely though.

Protip: Don't use Bioware as an example of an unexpected player making an MMOG. Since we have some new folks who will no doubt try to join this conversation, Bioware Austin != Bioware.

[rask]

Calling it now: CCP's 2nd MMO will follow this trend to the letter.

There's another part to this phenomenon too. The release of the 2nd MMO will spell the death of the 1st MMO as well. As Schild says, Blizzard will be the exception.

Somehow I don't think WoD will be an attempt to do Eve right, and I also doubt it will cause Eve's death.

Of course, it may fail horribly, but somehow I doubt it will with the entire population of deviantart chomping at the bit to subscribe.

[Baldrake]

Protip: Don't use Bioware as an example of an unexpected player making an MMOG. Since we have some new folks who will no doubt try to join this conversation, Bioware Austin != Bioware.

Actually, Bioware Austin is run by ex-Mythic people making their second system. And there are definite signs of over-ambition - somehow these guys are going to crack the problem of creating quality story-driven content faster than players can blow through it?

Raph - I am looking forward to Metaplace. It is definitely something really different, and that in itself was a good plan.

[Numtini]

I think a really large part is getting too complacent with how one does business and falling into the same traps, assuming that what worked in 2001 will work today. Looking at War, the glaring problems in the game were obvious to virtually everyone who played it, and Mythic's reaction was the same kind of ultra cautious reluctance to fix that they displayed in DAOC. "Oh, we are gathering metrics." "Oh everyone agrees we need to double xp, but instead we'll add 10% for a limited time and see how we feel about it." I can see the future where they go back to the FILO class fixes where the fix isn't enough or the nerf is too hard but you don't get looked at for two years because you're at the bottom of the stack.

Note that assumption I make about patching classes--that's because I see Mythic falling into one of their old patterns and just assume they'll fall into all of them. Not only aren't devs coming at a second gen without a fresh eye, but their players are also familiar with their faults and because of that far less tolerant to weasel word explanations or promises. If the advancement isn't enough, another company might be able to do that 10% and have players say "oh great, they're listening! Whoopdeedo!" but the Mythic history turned it into a negative.

(Sorry to pick on Mythic, it's just the one freshest in my mind with some very distinctive habits.)

[sigil]

Of course, it may fail horribly, but somehow I doubt it will with the entire population of deviantart chomping at the bit to subscribe.

knowing the few deviantart types I do, I think they're too busy cybering in their forums and chatrooms to hold down a job long enough to afford s subscription. 

I'm avoiding that place and game on general principles. Also unless they allow you to basically whatever the hell those people want on there, they're not going to have much retention from the hardcore WoDlings out there.

[Nebu]

How about Turbine and Asheron's Call 2 or Funcom and Age of Conan? 

[Mrbloodworth]

This seems to be true for only the big 5 dev-houses. Lesser known, or should i say lesser paid attention to houses, this doesn't seem to be the case.

But, its funny, this is along the lines of things i see in the art world in general. Can't tell you how many times personally, i have made an image, then tried to do it again...and failed. Thankfully, canvas, paper and ink are cheaper than an MMO. 

I don't think this is just a development thing, i think its a human thing. That, and i suspect this is where "3ed times the charm" really came from. Its part of the learning, and development as well as creative exploration process, normally it just isn't to the tune of 10m + experiment.

I think the real problem however is, How many of the teams really survive to work on the second MMO? I cant imagine its the SAME EXACT team. If it was, then i bet it would not be as grossly overshot as it is. I guess i am saying, in your team, how many new people are you adding, that this is their first, and your teams second, becouse that may muddy the waters.

[Venkman]

Which according to Brooks bodes well for Metaplace.

Sure, if it was a traditional "sequel"

[Aez]

An other negative aspect of the second system effect is that the rock star developer has more power vs his staff and the suits.  He's getting less contradicted and challenged since he knows how it's done. 

[Trippy]

Auto Assault (second MMO for NetDevil)

[HaemishM]

Does it count as a second MMO syndrome if the first was an abject failure as well?

[rk47]

Warhammer wasn't even complex. They just made it retardedly complex for no reason without the fun factor added in.
Zone pushes at its original state was broken.
Keep taking that rewards one lucky rollers. Hohoho.
PQ still the same deal. One guy gets gold. Sometimes NOBODY gets it.
Ward system that is fuckin archaic and continued to be 'tweaked' to make it necessary for DPS to wear a set.

Intelligent? Hell no.

[Venkman]

An other negative aspect of the second system effect is that the rock star developer has more power vs his staff and the suits.  He's getting less contradicted and challenged since he knows how it's done. 

This also corrolates to authors and movie makers

[Falwell]

CCP's WoD does have me a bit concerned. When they built EVE they did it on a shoestring budget, a very small team, and were working with an original IP. None of those are present this time around.

I could easily see CCP trying to bite off more than they can chew. I sure a hell hope this isn't the case, but it's very possible.

[Lantyssa]

CCP's WoD does have me a bit concerned. When they built EVE they did it on a shoestring budget, a very small team, and were working with an original IP. None of those are present this time around.

I could easily see CCP trying to bite off more than they can chew. I sure a hell hope this isnt's the case, but it's very possible.

If they're doing the new WoD as the setting, it may go that way regardless of how good it is.  Achillie's all-darkness all-the-time doesn't work for me or a lot of people.

[DraconianOne]

This also corrolates to authors and movie makers

I'm 99% confident that I know who you're talking about but I would also point out that there are plenty who don't fit this pattern.

[AngryGumball]

I know its prolly is still in early production but do we know the people making the Warhammer 40k mmo from Relic/THQ?

The same Dev team as Dawn of War RTS? Or a different crew of names from places we reconize. Is this an example of new players?

[Trippy]

Relic is not involved with the WH40K MMO (why not? who the fuck knows). It's being done by Vigil Games, a company founded by comic book artists.

[Venkman]

This also corrolates to authors and movie makers

I'm 99% confident that I know who you're talking about but I would also point out that there are plenty who don't fit this pattern.

I wasn't referring to anyone. It jus happens that some people peak early, or were the one type of creative needed during a unique time in a genre or industry, and learn the wrong things from that one-time win. It's not a pattern, but it happens enough to recognize it from the outside looking in.

[UnsGub]

I don't think this is just a development thing, i think its a human thing. That, and i suspect this is where "3ed times the charm" really came from. Its part of the learning, and development as well as creative exploration process, normally it just isn't to the tune of 10m + experiment.

It is a development thing.  The game industry is years of not a decade behind on tech and knowing how to build systems.  There are huge systems in use by millions of people that are be updated every few hours with new features, bug fixes, and content.  The MMOs do not have a cheap and fast system for making features and content then test and releasing it.  MMOs need to focus on copying how other companies make, test, and release systems and not just copy features of other MMOs with newly made features (auction house from scratch for example), testing, and release processes.  This information is available for much less then +10m.  Untill they learn how to build it, what they build is greatly limited or controlled by the processes they use.

[sinij]

I think good design is a fluke, mmorpgs are not understood enough to come up with formula for success. We know some components of it - such as stability, usability testing... but a lot of social aspects of it is very similar to producing music videos, you can only make a hit once in a while even following "proven" formula.

If anything this speaks volumes for keeping old mmorpgs alive.

[Setanta]

Relic is not involved with the WH40K MMO (why not? who the fuck knows). It's being done by Vigil Games, a company founded by comic book artists.

That doesn't bode well. Relic nailed the RTS - I had a lot of fun with the series of expansions (ignoring the non-Relic one that I didn't buy). I can't say I'd feel the same way about Vigil after Mythic screwed the pooch.

Re: WoW... wasn't the re-development put into the hands of ex-EQ devs while still in development (Furor/Tigole)? Does that make it effectively a second system?

[Senses]

I think the truth behind the reality is that you can't plan success.  When success happens, its very easy to then turn around and try to replicate it by making it "better," but it is the happy accidents, the things you came up with because you simply had no time for any other solution that unexpectedly become genius.  And then of course there is the idea that everyone only has that one homerun in them, and after writing your first and best great American novel, you simply have nothing left to give.

I really like t he concept behind this thread though.  Its one of those ideas you have in your head or toss around in some late night drunken discussion then find out someone much smarter than you has organized it and put it into a Wiki.

[ajax34i]

I think it depends on one thing:  what you do with your money once you've had (one, a) success.  People and companies that are frugal and don't spend like idiots should theoretically make it.

As far as CCP, my completely uninformed opinion is that they may drop the WoD setting in favor of just making Ambulation a full-fledged MMO, and then offer the two MMO's (the Spaceship Combat MMO and the Planet-surface Avatar MMO with Guns and Shit) as complementary games a la City of Heroes / City of Villains.  Both of them would be sandboxes, full PVP, etc etc, and the release of the second should boost the playerbase of the current one.

[stray]

All MMO's are second MMO's as far as I'm concerned.

i.e. They're all shit. I'll never like em as much as I liked them the first time. Partly their fault for not improving and introducing anything dramatic. Partly mine for not being stupid and easily entertained.

[Malakili]

I think it depends on one thing:  what you do with your money once you've had (one, a) success.  People and companies that are frugal and don't spend like idiots should theoretically make it.

As far as CCP, my completely uninformed opinion is that they may drop the WoD setting in favor of just making Ambulation a full-fledged MMO, and then offer the two MMO's (the Spaceship Combat MMO and the Planet-surface Avatar MMO with Guns and Shit) as complementary games a la City of Heroes / City of Villains.  Both of them would be sandboxes, full PVP, etc etc, and the release of the second should boost the playerbase of the current one.

Please no.

I can see why it might seem like a smart business move, but I think they have a really good thing going for them right now, making a MAJOR change like this might do more harm than good.  I'm nervous enough about ambulation as it stands (though I'll admit what they are saying seems to indicate that it will be more geared towards the social aspect of the game, which I can totally get behind). 

In regards to the OP, i think what we have here is a case of trying to force things and trying to please everyone.  the "first MMO," it would seem, tends to be less interested in pleasing a large population and more interested in creating the game the developers wanted to begin with.  However, after their initial (even moderate) success, they get a big investor, and the investor wants a big payout.  What they do is then sell their original (good) idea short in favor of trying to appeal to as wide a player base as possible, which generally means a bunch of watered down features, rather than a solid MMO than knows what it is and does it well.  Now, I don't want to be too nostolgic about older MMOs, but I have seen a pattern of late that MMO releases that have tried to please large amounts of people  (WoW aside, its an anomaly), have disappointed me.

[Threash]

Re: WoW... wasn't the re-development put into the hands of ex-EQ devs while still in development (Furor/Tigole)? Does that make it effectively a second system?

Furor and Tigole were EQ players not devs, they both led the top guilds in EQ at one time or another.

[Setanta]

Ah cheers - I wasn't too sure on that.

Re: WoW, I was thinking last night that they actually reinvented themselves with BC - reducing reliance on 25mans, reducing levelling grind so that you could get into the good stuff at 70 while not coming close to endgame, implementing the token system etc.

I'll be interested to see whether their next MMO is innovative or more of the traditional MMO fodder.