November's Best Selling PC Games, WAR MIA

[rk47]

uh you can start now. At this point, subscription rate will not grow. There will be no massive influx of new subs until the next expansion perhaps. Pick a healthy server and work your way up. Heheh.

[Threash]

So is this game worth playing yet or what?

I've been playing pretty heavily now that theres been non stop orvr going on every time i log in.  Leveling is still too slow, but renown and influence come pretty fast, theres lots of pvp action every night and the advantages of defenders makes it so even if massively outnumbered you can score a win here and there on keep defenses.  One thing i've realized though is that the end game simply does not work in its most basic form and needs a complete remake.  Even if they fix the crashes and lag, if they balance the classes and miraculously even up the sides then what you are left with is the fact that is simply impossible to reach the end game (city sieges or even fortresses) if both sides were equal.  The only reason theres any fortress or city sieges at this point is because one side way outnumbers the other, and even so defense is pretty easy most of the time, you would never see any prime time wins for either side if the game was balanced.

[Bismallah]

One thing i've realized though is that the end game simply does not work in its most basic form and needs a complete remake.  Even if they fix the crashes and lag, if they balance the classes and miraculously even up the sides then what you are left with is the fact that is simply impossible to reach the end game (city sieges or even fortresses) if both sides were equal.  The only reason theres any fortress or city sieges at this point is because one side way outnumbers the other, and even so defense is pretty easy most of the time, you would never see any prime time wins for either side if the game was balanced.

This, to a point...

The end game is broken, period. VP is still borked, Forts are still crashing left and right, the whole game post T2 is just fail. I am guessing at this point they are going to have to pull some huge massive Frontiers type overhaul to fix the end game. Unfortunately that's too late for a massive amount of their once decent player base.

I at first thought they might still hold 300k through December, but seeing the posts all around WHA forums and the VN boards (plus random blogs) it's not looking good at all...

[Zzulo]

The city sieges work, but the fortresses are broken most of the time, and that blocks the players from getting to the endgame.

Endgame PvE still works and also ORVR in general.

What they need to do now is instance the fortress zones to 150v150and work from there.

[Bismallah]

Good post here sums most of what we are talking about up:

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224563

End game PvE still working, <blank stare>. Seriously dude? I know I signed up for WAR for the end game gear raids, woohoo! Hell this game is more gear intensive for raiding and PvP then WoW was, which I never thought would happen, ever. Sure certain classes in WoW need gear to live, but nothing like WAR. If you don't have your wards prepare to get wtfowned in Forts and anything above Bastion.

[Zzulo]

Good post here sums most of what we are talking about up:

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224563

End game PvE still working, <blank stare>. Seriously dude? I know I signed up for WAR for the end game gear raids, woohoo! Hell this game is more gear intensive for raiding and PvP then WoW was, which I never thought would happen, ever. Sure certain classes in WoW need gear to live, but nothing like WAR. If you don't have your wards prepare to get wtfowned in Forts and anything above Bastion.

Like it or not, it's working as intended.

[Montague]

Good post here sums most of what we are talking about up:

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224563

You quoted a Dash post. 

[Samwise]

The city sieges work, but the fortresses are broken most of the time, and that blocks the players from getting to the endgame.

Endgame PvE still works and also ORVR in general.

So, it's a PvP-centric game where most of the PvP stuff is broken to the point where people can't even see all of it.  But some of the PvE stuff works.  Do I have that right?

Yeah... pass.

[Zzulo]

Yeah pretty much

I still enjoy the ORVR though. From what I hear, the PvP "endgame" everyone wants to see get fixed so badly is pretty much just a lot of public quests (City sieges), so I was kind of "meh" about it from the beginning

[Lantyssa]

You quoted a Dash post. 

Dash wasn't a horrible person outside of Politics.  Unfortunately he very rarely left that section.

[Pringles]

our guild had a meeting announcing they would be starting a guild in WoW due to demand and the number of people leaving WAR

pretty large hardcore guild so, yeah.

[GoodIdea]

Good post here sums most of what we are talking about up:

http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224563

End game PvE still working, <blank stare>. Seriously dude? I know I signed up for WAR for the end game gear raids, woohoo! Hell this game is more gear intensive for raiding and PvP then WoW was, which I never thought would happen, ever. Sure certain classes in WoW need gear to live, but nothing like WAR. If you don't have your wards prepare to get wtfowned in Forts and anything above Bastion.

Ward gear is REALLY easy to get. Most everyone I know has between 3-5 pieces of Anhililator from doing RVR only. From RVR I've gotten everything I need (and more) for fortress sieges and would have been "ok" for city sieges. In a single run of Sigmar's Crypts dungeon, which took a grande total of 45 minutes, I got 3 pieces of Sentinel gear which is enough for the next dungeon and is perfect for city sieges, which is the next step. The gear grind is nothing, I was basically done in 45 minutes.

Warcraft, I had at least 4 different gears sets I went through, just to get through BC. That doesn't even include resist gear.

Seems like people freaked out about the gear grind without actually experiencing it, which I would describe as pathetically easy right now. Almost all of the grind is done doing RVR, which doesn't feel like a grind at all to me at least. I don't really see too many posts about gear grind problems these days, most gripes with the game come from witch elves, AE CC, and fortresses, all problems that can be worked out. The open rvr is quite fun and replaying tier 1-2 is both needed and as fun as T4. T4 with a good alliance is also very fun as well, very strategic, very interesting.

[rk47]

all problems that can be worked out.

[Hawkbit]

I had a nice chuckle at my local Best Buy tonight, they've got a whole set of three shelves covered in WAR merchandise.  Hundreds of copies of the game and strat guides. 

I realize that's no indication of sales and such, but it's still pretty funny to see it sitting there. 

[Ubvman]

You seem to be suggesting that official forums have reduced proportions of drooling fanbois, cynical assholes, and whining dickheads.

What evidence do you have for this surprising conclusion?

Not having official forums is one less stupid distraction for community relations to worry about. However, community relations have around 20 billion stupid distractions to worry about - so one more or one less doesn't really make much difference.

I am not saying that official forums are totally bereft of drama queens, cynical assholes, whining dickheads and other fun denizens. Plenty there, but in a well run and tightly moderated forum - they can be controlled and management's message to the players would not be hijacked for what ever reason. On the other hand, "well run and wisely moderated" is hard and all that but thats how "community handlers" earn their money.

My point being is that generally - the hypothetical "innocent noob player" would tend to gravitate towards official forums. The absence of official forums would basically imply (IMO) that all forums discussing Warhammer Online are just about equal. F13 having as much relevancy as say VN boards, Warhammer alliance and others (actually, not being a WAR fanboi - I can't think of any other major WAR forums apart from F13 and those 2 - and I googled them). There is no WAR forum with the OFFICIAL mark of approval that the hypothetical innocent can turn to.

Here at F13, WAR has been relegated to the gaming graveyard and the cynical assholes insightful commentators here are dancing atop its tombstone discussing its many issues. Nothing Mythic can do about it, and since all forums are equal and unofficial, the message here carries as much "word of mouth" weight as any of the other forums that Mythic "community managers" choose to flit about on. Not having an official forum just about gives license and credibility to all the rampant negativity about the game. It is about losing control of the message you're trying to get out.

While we are at it, in the absence of official forums - what does Mythic's "Community Relations" do that is quantifiable apart from putting out assclown youtube videos?

[Arthur_Parker]

While we are at it, in the absence of official forums - what does Mythic's "Community Relations" do that is quantifiable apart from putting out assclown youtube videos?

I believe they spend all day avoiding reading threads like this one.

For those of you who have not had the luxury of zoning into a City Zone (End game RvR?) let me give you the run down.

You zone in, (we assume it is first people in) get assigned a contribution number for the PQ and you keep it forever (until you die, zone out or log off). If you are the lucky person to have been assigned 500 you can go AFK in the PQ and win gold bag after gold bag. If you were one of the unlucky gits like myself who was assigned a 50 contribution you are pretty much screwed.

If you do happen to win a bag and it happens to be a blue green or purple bag the items inside are a REAL TREAT. Level 30 items that no one at level 40 would ever want or could use.

The quests you can get when you zone in (Everyone ignores these) give 6000 exp (WOW OMG CRAZY EXP FOR LEVEL 40s) 1.5 gold and a token to buy armor that was put in at beta and have yet to be removed because they are no longer valid.

Then their is the Altdorf Scenario, some big boring looking scenario that combines several aspects of different scenarios into one and fails completely. When you zone in you are not flagged for RvR combat so if you don't want to get hit dont flag for it and you can run around and cap flags.

If you happen to be on the oposing team (Defending team) you can stand at the level 55 guards and have marauders and white lions pull people in that are doing the PQs to get them insta gibbed, over and over. The guards basically prevent you from actually running out the other team or standing a fair chance of fighting them.

Currently there is no way for you to actually progress the city siege past the first stage because your victory points steadily decrease as time goes on and there is no way to raise them if the other team does not queue for scenarios or voluntarily enter the city zone to engage in PvP... (Defending team wins by not participating).


MYTHIC YOU SOLD THIS GAME WITH THE MOST EMPHASIS ON THE REALLY COOL CITY SIEGES AND AS IT TURNS OUT THEY ARE PVE BASED AND ARE THE WORST ASPECT TO THE GAME THEY ARE BORING AND BROKEN BEYOND HOPE

I could go on for another 30 minutes about how broken RvR end game is and about how disapointed I am that I had to wait a couple a months enduring 30-40 server crashes to get to this point.

[Malakili]

So is this game worth playing yet or what?

no.

[waffel]

December's Best-Selling PC Games for 2008

   1. World Of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King / Blizzard / $39 (Average)
   2. The Sims 2 Double Deluxe / EA Maxis / $18 (Average)
   3. Spore / EA Maxis / $47 (Average)
   4. The Sims 2 Apartment Life Exp. Pack / EA Maxis / $18 (Average)
   5. Call Of Duty: World At War / Treyarch / $50 (Average)
   6. Left 4 Dead / Valve / $48 (Average)
   7. Fallout 3 / Bethesda / $49 (Average)
   8. World Of Warcraft: Battle Chest / Blizzard / $38 (Average)
   9. World Of Warcraft / Blizzard / $20 (Average)
  10. The Sims 2 Mansion & Garden Stuff Exp. / EA Maxis / $18 (Average)
  11. Bejeweled Twist / PopCap / $19 (Average)
  12. Spore Creepy & Cute Parts Pack / EA Maxis / $18 (Average)
  13. Command & Conquer: Red Alert 3 / EA LA / $49 (Average)
  14. Grand Theft Auto IV / Rockstar North / $49 (Average)
  15. World Of Warcraft: Burning Crusade Expansion Pack / Blizzard / $28 (Average)
  16. The Sims 2 Pets Exp. / EA Maxis / $18 (Average)
  17. The Sims 2 Seasons Exp. / EA Maxis / $18 (Average)
  18. Nancy Drew: The Haunting of Castle Malloy / Her Interactive / $20 (Avearge)
  19. The Sims 2 FreeTime Exp. / EA Maxis / $18 (Average)
  20. The Sims 2 University Exp. / EA Maxis / $18 (Average)




Warhammer, where r u?! Beat out by Nancy Drew and an expansion for The Sims 2 which added pets? 

[Fordel]

Warcraft Warcraft, Sims, Sims, Warcraft. 

[Xurtan]

Warcraft Warcraft, Sims, Sims, Warcraft. 

Have I finally lived long enough to see the decline of the human race? I'm deeply disturbed by this.

[Bismallah]

I highly doubt we see WAR on that top 20 list ever again.

Niche based game, maybe 200k subs at this point. Might lose even more if they dont do a T4 overhaul patch very soon. They could even throw in the Choppa/Slayer and I highly doubt they gain 5-10% back with all the issues in the game.

[Nebu]

When your game is beat out by Nancy Drew, it's time to admit that there may be a problem. 

[waylander]

T4 sucks, leveling via PVE is boring as hell and way too long, and high end gear is acquired mainly by even more boring PVE. Yeah, no wonder its not in the top 20 anymore.

[Sheepherder]

Warcraft Warcraft, Sims, Sims, Warcraft. 

Have I finally lived long enough to see the decline of the human race? I'm deeply disturbed by this.

And if Warhammer was #1?


Precisely.

[raydeen]

Warcraft, Warcraft, Sims, Sims, Warcraft.

Sorry, I"m not seeing the problem in this. Granted I only see 3/5ths of this as fun but I recognize that some see the other 2/5ths fun as well. A large number do. I'm really beginning to wonder why WAR is still even being discussed. It's a failure of GIGANTIC proportions. It's NOT FUN. All things Warcraft and all things Sims do seem to be in some way fun for most people if not all people. I'll give you my personal feeling why. Both franchises have managed to meld together games and toys. When I play any of the Warcraft games, all the characters, pieces, scenery, etc. are fun to look at and make me want to play with them. I imagine it's the same with the Sims. I'm not into that whole doll house thing but I can imagine that the visceral reaction is the same to those that are hooked in by that sort of game. There's also something engaging in the games, something almost intangible. If there wasn't, both franchises wouldn't have the number of new subs that they do. Both have hit that magic mix of gameplay, graphics, fun and freedom that entice new people in and keep old people playing. Mythic failed by trying to implement too many rules in their tiers, levels, and basic tomfoolery of who can play when, where and how, and making their game world so generic and boring that it hurts the eyes and brain to look at and respond to. It's over. Put a fork in it. It's done.

I should conclude this by saying that I've had an awful lot to drink tonight and I'm not in the brightest and shiniest of moods, but that I would love a decent PvP styled game in which I could PvP with impunity and feel so much better about myself. The last game that let me do that was Daggerfall.

[IainC]

According to NPD, WAR was the 5th best selling game of 2008 in the US.

1. World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King - Blizzard
2. Spore - Electronic Arts
3. World of Warcraft: Battle Chest - Blizzard
4. Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures - Funcom/Eidos
5. Warhammer Online: Age Of Reckoning - Mythic/EA
6. Call Of Duty 4: Modern Warfare - Activision
7. The Sims 2 Double Deluxe - Electronic Arts
8. World Of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King Collector's Edition - Blizzard
9. Fallout 3 - Bethesda Softworks
10. World Of Warcraft: Burning Crusade - Blizzard
11. Call Of Duty: World At War - Activision
12. The Sims 2 FreeTime - Electronic Arts
13. World Of Warcraft - Blizzard
14. Sins Of A Solar Empire - Ironclad Games/Stardock
15. Warcraft III Battle Chest - Blizzard
16. The Sims 2 Apartment Life - Electronic Arts
17. Crysis - Crytek/EA
18. Left 4 Dead - Valve
19. Diablo Battle Chest - Blizzard
20. The Orange Box - Valve

[Trippy]

Wow Sins Of A Solar Empire was #14, that's amazing.

[raydeen]

According to NPD, WAR was the 5th best selling game of 2008 in the US.

I reject your reality and substitute my own. That just can't be right. If it is, it speaks volumes about the hopes and fears of the MMOG community. What we want and what we get are two very different things. I hope we learn from this and in the future don't fall for such tricks again.

[Jherad]

/shrugs

It says what it says. If the measure of a MMO's success is box sales at launch, both War and AoC have done well.

That we can safely say AoC was *also* a big pile of fail (and even beat War) means that isn't quite the case 

[waffel]

Mark found the thread over on VN about the december sales numbers and has been posting like crazy on it, here's some good material to chew on:

Folks,

   These threads always make me chuckle a little bit.  EA's earnings call is in a few weeks and after that, there will be a lot more clarity about our numbers.  As always, I can't talk about it before the call but after that it will be fair game. There is no question that WotLK (like BC before it) and everything else swirling around us had an effect on PC game sales but we expected it would happen so we were not surprised.  As I've said in interviews both before and the game launched, we knew going up against WoW was a marathon and not a sprint and we're still in it for the long-term.  I can't give you sales numbers today but I can say this, that if I compared the number of new people trying WAR today than one month ago (or even 2 months ago), there are more people today than on Dec 17th or even Nov 17th (and this holds true for lots of other days as well, for those of you who think I'd engage in semantics :)). 

    This, of course, will have no effect on the doomsayers/naysayers/etc. but the fact remains that we've come through one of the most competitive and challenging retail environments in the history of gaming (world economy in tatters, WoTLK, other great RPGs, etc.) and are still selling nicely even though we are a new subscription game. The fact is that almost everyone is hurting these days and calling us a failure because we didn't achieve WoW numbers (which I always said we wouldn't do) overnight is just silly.  WoW didn't reach their peak subscriber numbers overnight and neither have we.  If I thought that we had peaked already, I'd put WAR in maintenance mode and call it a day.  Not only are we not doing that but we are investing heavily in WAR.  The extent of some of that investment I'll be discussing soon.

Mark

[CharlieMopps]

I think he's confusing all the BS accounts the gold spammers are starting up with fake Credit cards in order to spam the server with real accounts. 

[Soulflame]

T4 sucks, leveling via PVE is boring as hell and way too long, and high end gear is acquired mainly by even more boring PVE. Yeah, no wonder its not in the top 20 anymore.

You forgot to point out that the endgame is itself instanced PvE, which by some accounts isn't even fully implemented yet.  Almost as though "no one could have expected players to reach the end so quickly!"   

[WindupAtheist]

I can't give you sales numbers today but I can say this, that if I compared the number of new people trying WAR today than one month ago (or even 2 months ago), there are more people today than on Dec 17th or even Nov 17th

Uh... his game is being outsold by Nancy Drew. Where does he expect us to believe all these new people got the game from?

[HaemishM]

Is NPD still ignoring direct download sales? If so, that could be a source of new, undocumented sales.

EDIT: Yep, those NPD numbers do not count downloaded sales. That doesn't mean it sold well, but it doesn't mean that NPD tracks all the sales either.

[Soln]

Is NPD still ignoring direct download sales? If so, that could be a source of new, undocumented sales.

EDIT: Yep, those NPD numbers do not count downloaded sales. That doesn't mean it sold well, but it doesn't mean that NPD tracks all the sales either.

Well said Sir.   L4D anyone?