Finding a Good Guild is Tough!

[Nevermore]

You know that guy? That guy who's a guild officer or leader? That guy who's nice and seemingly normal enough when there are no females involved, but hasn't had a real girlfriend in eons and can't help falling madly in love with some chick in the guild? That guy who manages to be all emo and make things insufferable for everyone when said chick doesn't want to fucking e-date his dork ass? I hate that guy. I could shoot that guy right in the face in front of his mother. Fuck you, go on a real date and quit ruining MMOs you pathetic hosebag.

To make a short story even shorter: Four of us /gquit simultaneously and are making our own little guild to hang out in once we think of a name. Fuck it, one more person and we can run heroics. They're lucky nobody cared to rob the guild bank on the way out.

EDIT:  I want to be "Hogger's Heroes" but I don't think it will take the apostraphe and nobody else seems to like the name as much as me. :(

This is why some women on the internet don't advertise the fact that they're women.  Avoids so much drama.

[bhodi]

It's hard to do that when you have a vent server.

[Dren]

We just went through yet another bi-yearly split last week.  About 4 people left because we aren't hardcore enough and make raids our first priority.  So, the usual drama ensued on the forums and guildchat to restate for about the 8th time that our guild is about casual first and when it works out we raid.  We are up to basically any 10 man now and do the occasional 25-man vault and obsidian by using pugs.  We nearly get to the final stage of Naxx.  We  should have it very soon since most people are improving their characters daily.

That wasn't enough for some.  That's fine and all.  Most of those people leave on good terms and everyone is ok with it.  One didn't.  Personal attacks to many and on a pretty deep level too.  He had some good points, but they were all lost within the IRE.

The games change, the drama remains the same.

[Paelos]

Raiding guilds just seem like a bad idea to me from a weird political standpoint. As I've said before, I've been in the same raiding alliance of guilds for like 3 years now, and we've never had a drama split. Guilds that don't come around as often just leave on their own, and we recruit new groups in. It's fairly easy-going and there's no real "leadership" beyond one councilmember per guild. There's also no banks, no titles, and no bullshit that I seem to hear about in these stories.

[Ingmar]

The only drama involved in ours is juggling the 'which dpser doesn't get to go this time' in a vaguely fair manner, since we regularly have 12-14 signups for the raid.

[Rasix]

We just went through yet another bi-yearly split last week.

This will happen once our lone competent GM gets all of the gear upgrades she needs from Naxx. Once that happens she starts getting all emotional and refuses to any run that isn't a direct gear upgrade blaming it on whatever.  The other GMs are nice enough people, but they're both kind of inept when it comes to organization.  Guild stagnates, etc etc.

Plus, we've already started inviting back people that have been problems in the past.  We just invited back a tank that was directly responsible for a huge guild split and was kicked out not too far into WOLK. Another big warning sign is when they start inviting teenagers.  I'm sorry, but anyone that's not at least college age in their mid twenties tends to end up being a problem .

Still, mostly has good people.  They're not great at WoW or anything, but it's the best fit I've found for me so far.  If I had the time and inclination to raid, I'd just join one of those "destined for a huge break up in 2 months" raiding guilds my server is so famous for.

[Montague]

We just went through yet another bi-yearly split last week.

This will happen once our lone competent GM gets all of the gear upgrades she needs from Naxx. Once that happens she starts getting all emotional and refuses to any run that isn't a direct gear upgrade blaming it on whatever.

We call it Purple Fever. We were running Karazhan/Zul Aman pre WOTLK as a casual group and everything was fine until one of our friends starting going on that "We should be clearing Kara in 3 hours" and "X and Y players are holding us back", etc. Then when we finally get Kara on farm and he has all of his upgrades he's suddenly not able to raid and starts joining 25 mans with a guild he hates.

Players that are just in it to get whatever they can for their character are trouble for a guild without strong leadership (its even worse if THEY are the leadership). I can already see this coming with our Death Knight offtank. He goes on and on in Vent about all the upgrades he's going to get, gets pissy if we don't run heroics 24/7, and got all quiet when we told him we're master looting Naxx with a loot council for the first few weeks in order to make the most out of upgrades. When he didn't show up for Sarth last week I almost kicked him from the raid - only because he's a RL friend and he whined like a baby did I let him back in. More than likely I'll regret it later.

[Fordel]

The only drama involved in ours is juggling the 'which dpser doesn't get to go this time' in a vaguely fair manner, since we regularly have 12-14 signups for the raid.

I keep offering to sit! 

[Ingmar]

The only drama involved in ours is juggling the 'which dpser doesn't get to go this time' in a vaguely fair manner, since we regularly have 12-14 signups for the raid.

I keep offering to sit! 

You might be on the block for OS next week actually. 

[Paelos]

I started a new run with a bunch of people in the alliance under the terms that it's a fun raid first with no direct objectives, and that we'd have common rotations of people based on schedules. Also, there's zero loot policy beyond 1 epic, 1 token, and use some common sense. So far, it's been very successful. Everyone has a great time, nobody feels like they are overworked, we never DE anything, and we've killed 8 bosses in Naxx 25 as well as Sarth and Arch. There are about 40 some odd people that are on the team, and usually we rotate 2-3 nightly when we get too many by volunteers and rolloffs.

This is the direct opposite of the old Black Temple run that I did where we were focused on progression, and only ended up killing 6 bosses in like 4 months. People constantly complained about loot, dps, and moronic play. We took way too long to get things done, and I hated the attitudes of the people that were in the run. I had two friends of mine who were just constantly bitching when anybody else won a roll against them. Finally, I just stopped running things with them and did this run, and I've never been happier.

If raiding sucks for you, it's almost always the people you were with. I simply got tired of putting up with the completely selfish, lootwhoring, overly administrative raids and went the other way. It's the most fun I've ever had.

[Nonentity]

I joined a poopsocking guild back in pre-BC (I did Naxx with them - #1 horde guild on server, top 50 US guilds, etc.), and then never hardcore raided past that.

I'm still in the guild, so I can get in on 10 and 25 man raid content pretty much whenever I want (with their alts).

It's a nice situation to be in.

[Ingmar]

We just open roll on everything. It has only ever caused a problem once, when a guy from our partner guild had some kind of weird lightning reflex reaction to seeing the word PLATE pop up on a piece of loot and would roll on it before he noticed that it was like, paladin healing shoulders (he was a fury warrior.)

So he doesn't get invited anymore (3 strikes), but otherwise I really just like letting people roll on whatever and letting it settle out over time.

[Montague]

We just open roll on everything. It has only ever caused a problem once, when a guy from our partner guild had some kind of weird lightning reflex reaction to seeing the word PLATE pop up on a piece of loot and would roll on it before he noticed that it was like, paladin healing shoulders (he was a fury warrior.)

So he doesn't get invited anymore (3 strikes), but otherwise I really just like letting people roll on whatever and letting it settle out over time.

That works if everyone buys in. It worked for our Kara/ZA raids, but we've had problems in WOTLK with resto druids rolling on best-in-slot DPS gear for their offspec feral set, and tanks rolling on a blue item over someone with a green when they have an epic in slot because it gives them +1% more Evasion. Not so coincidentally, it's folks new to our guild that transferred from other servers. Thus why we're doing loot council for the first few weeks, because our group apparently lacks a lot of the common sense that Paelos refers to.

[Paelos]

If the group lacks common sense, I've made statements in the past in writing as to what I expected. Generally, when you spell it out things become a little better. People should only be rolling on one common spec of gear in my view. For example, I may run as DPS occasionally to let others tank, but I'm going to roll on tank items. That's my preference, and that's my main job. Same for people that are DPS but specced healing that day to help out.

I also made it apparent that part of the looting process involves looking around at your teammates. If some dude is rocking blue shoulders, and you have your 10 man T7, don't roll on those killer DPS shoulders from Naxx 25 yet. Oddly, shoulder itemization is probably the WORST thing Blizzard did. They intentionally left it out of heroics altogether, and the drops off Naxx don't seem to come that often for my groups. The best bet is just running Lotheab into the ground, which isn't really my favorite fight in the world.

[Fordel]

Our issue with loot (outside of that one guy Ing already mentioned, fucker took my shield  ), is usually people being TOO unselfish.

"No you take it"
"No I got the last item, you take it"
"No I already have a decent thing in that slot, you can have it too"
"No you take it, I don't play as often as you do so its better for the raid"

etc...

[K9]

We just open roll on everything. It has only ever caused a problem once, when a guy from our partner guild had some kind of weird lightning reflex reaction to seeing the word PLATE pop up on a piece of loot and would roll on it before he noticed that it was like, paladin healing shoulders (he was a fury warrior.)

So he doesn't get invited anymore (3 strikes), but otherwise I really just like letting people roll on whatever and letting it settle out over time.

That works if everyone buys in. It worked for our Kara/ZA raids, but we've had problems in WOTLK with resto druids rolling on best-in-slot DPS gear for their offspec feral set, and tanks rolling on a blue item over someone with a green when they have an epic in slot because it gives them +1% more Evasion. Not so coincidentally, it's folks new to our guild that transferred from other servers. Thus why we're doing loot council for the first few weeks, because our group apparently lacks a lot of the common sense that Paelos refers to.

Why would you ever use group loot in a raid setting? Master loot makes everything so much easier. I'm the master looter for any guild run I'm in, and I roll every item with main spec priority, then offspec. Everyone else is used to it, and we get next to no hassle and rapid distribution (you avoid the problem of people who go AFK after a boss kill, whose loot timers then have to expire before loot is done). We have discussed DKP, but frankly in 10-mans it isn't worth it, as there's so rarely more than two people rolling for a given item in the main-spec category (DPS caster cloth and DPS plate are the worst contenders, and weapons); and people are less worried about off-spec rolls when all the main spec people pass.

It helps to have people who aren't primarily motivated by loot, and who are all fairly mature. That's our A-raid group. Our B-group is a whole other woeful story of immaturity and fail :(

[ajax34i]

"Item being disenchanted in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, gone..." fixes the "no, you take it!" issue right quick.

In my experience, Master Looter has the problem that after the raid, or during the raid, loot drama happens in tells / chat.  Nobody can argue with the roll of the dice, but boy they sure can argue with the master loot officer.

[Sjofn]

It helps to have people who aren't primarily motivated by loot, and who are all fairly mature. That's our A-raid group. Our B-group is a whole other woeful story of immaturity and fail :(

This is why we don't need to use master looter in our raids (although if that one dude who rolls first, reads the loot description later guy comes again, I'm sure we will).

Like Fordel said, it's usually harder to get people to roll on shit they need in our raid instead of passing it to be nice to someone else who would need it, except they ALSO passed to be nice. I'm pretty sure that's why we have our DEers roll greed now. Speeds things up for the DEers, and makes it clear dithering will result in a shard ...  and our overly nice raiders aren't THAT nice. :P

[Fordel]

It also lets people have the fates decide on the sidegrade or not.

[Jayce]

When I raided, a long time ago, we used a random 1-100 plus a number that you accumulated per raid sort of like DKP.  You had to use it all at once, so it just made you more likely to get a piece of loot rather than guaranteeing it.

Some people didn't like it because it didn't guarantee you'd get something even if you came to a lot of raids, but I think it was pretty fair.  It gave the vets an advantage but let the newbies have a chance.

Never really seen anything like it afterward, though, so maybe it wasn't a great idea.

[Ingmar]

Rolling with the regular group loot interface is faster than loot council or master looter or any other possible method, IMO. I ran way too many 4 hour post-DAOC-raid-loot-handouts to fuck around with anything I have to actually take control of again. And again, with our group, it works fine.

[Fordel]

It's always fun when we pick up a random PuG'er to fill out a DPS slot and they want to pass and /rand though.

[K9]

Rolling with the regular group loot interface is faster than loot council or master looter or any other possible method, IMO. I ran way too many 4 hour post-DAOC-raid-loot-handouts to fuck around with anything I have to actually take control of again. And again, with our group, it works fine.

I guess it depends on the content. Usually for us with master looter I can still be rolling loot while the other 9 guys are already starting to clear the next trash. In the end you do whatever works best for you. Master Loot causes a minimum of disputes for us, and works fast, if you prefer group loot then go for it.

[Sheepherder]

Raiding guilds just seem like a bad idea to me from a weird political standpoint. As I've said before, I've been in the same raiding alliance of guilds for like 3 years now, and we've never had a drama split. Guilds that don't come around as often just leave on their own, and we recruit new groups in. It's fairly easy-going and there's no real "leadership" beyond one councilmember per guild. There's also no banks, no titles, and no bullshit that I seem to hear about in these stories.

Burning Legion Raid Alliance drama was interesting.  It probably gutted 4-5 different guilds, it most certainly fucked the guild I was in at the time a good deal.  And out of the ashes arose a new guild.

The irony is that they were beaten to the Vael kill by an alliance between the Very Hairy Man Guild and Shortbus Allstars.

[Ingmar]

Very Hairy Man Guild is an awesome name.

[Slayerik]

I just ran a pug 25 man Arch and there were 3 hunters there (counting me). 3 hunter pieces dropped, gloves... legs... and chest

I roll all below 19 and the master looter ALMOST didn't give me a piece. Thanks to some nice Pug hunters and the insistance of some guildies the ML begrudgedly handed over the Valorous Cryptstalker Tunic. I was like....here we go, this d-bag is gonna hose me. Instead.....got an incredible chest piece. Best. Pug. Evar!

[Draegan]

So I'm willing to transfer I think.  Anyone have a solid 25m guild that needs a DK and a hunter?

[Slayerik]

So I'm willing to transfer I think.  Anyone have a solid 25m guild that needs a DK and a hunter?

We are on that line of like 16-18 active 80's. We aren't far from 25's , but if you are looking for the perfect 'get-in-and-get-25-mannin' situation, not going to happen. On the plus side, we have gamed together for 5+ years so the normal drama isn't an issue.

[Draegan]

Thanks for the offer, but we had left a guild that couldn't get 25 people together at all.