Game of Thrones [SPOILERS]

[Khaldun]

Of course, with the Faceless Men, we never know who anyone "really" is. They could send Ned Stark to talk to Arya if they want.

You know, assassins' guilds are such a fantasy staple that I wish Martin and the show would think differently here too. There have actually been groups of assassins in human history--we get the word from one such actual group--but they don't tend to be killers-for-hire, mere mercenaries available to anyone with the coin. They're almost always either religious cults or the specialized subunit of a clannish or small political-military organization. I suppose the Faceless Men are a 'cult' but I still really don't get a sense of what motivates them. It would be interesting if it turned out that they're more or less the covert arm of the Iron Bank, the made men of it--I could imagine that, and it could be a reason why they send Arya back to Westeros without any real strings attached, because they know she'll rip the shit out of the Lannisters, who it turns out do *not* pay their debts.

[Speedy Cerviche]

While what they did with Dorne was still awkward, I didn't think it was too bad by itself (I imagine its better if you don't have book bias to help you rage against it, heh).  But in the end, using only a few episodes of material (there really wasn't that much Dorne stuff last season, and almost none this season), they managed to cleanly swipe away probably over 500 pages of material.  All of the golden company stuff, all of the endless retarded Dorne plots from the books (Sand Snakes/Darkstar and Prince Extra Crispy), all condensed down into one final result:  There is a large army in the south now marching north.  Dorne and the Sand Snakes are now the stand in for the Golden Company and Prince Deus Ex.  That's only a little bit of airtime to get to the same place that hundreds of pages of shitty material took to get (ok, I sort of like the Golden Company stuff, but its just needless extra plot lines at this point).

So in that regard, I'm fine with it.  Plus hypno tits makes up for a lot, imo.   

I had forgotten about the Golden company, it's been a few years and there were so many forgettable parts haha. As you say this is going to accomplish what that convoluted plot did: A large army is going to start wrecking stuff in the Crown Alliance's previously untouched heartland (The Reach & Stormlands). Probably leads to a Tyrell collapse. I do remember the foreshadowing from early on which stuck out to me, when they were derided as the "Knights of Summer". They are the Italian army of Westeros. 4-5 books/seasons later the flower knights (on paper the largest and richest force) still haven't been tested in any real conflict.

[K9]

From those photos, a definite spoiler for episode 8:

[Speedy Cerviche]

So, the whole no travel time to get from one end of a continent to another with no dragons was starting to bother me as in the books, as much as it's annoying as fuck sometimes, there is a sense of distance.  My wife, a non-book reader, made a good observation that she never assumed the different stories were synced up perfectly and it looked like when someone arrives somewhere it's because that plotline was taking place during one of the plots we had already seen. It sort of made sense if you don't think about it too hard.

That's what I assume, but it's still very jarring when you see it happen on screen especially when a character moves a big distance withing a single episode or two. I wonder how much it would change the feel of the show if they had added some narration or captioning to explain it as cheesy as that might be to a lot of people, it would make it more book-like.

[Speedy Cerviche]

Of course, with the Faceless Men, we never know who anyone "really" is. They could send Ned Stark to talk to Arya if they want.

You know, assassins' guilds are such a fantasy staple that I wish Martin and the show would think differently here too. There have actually been groups of assassins in human history--we get the word from one such actual group--but they don't tend to be killers-for-hire, mere mercenaries available to anyone with the coin. They're almost always either religious cults or the specialized subunit of a clannish or small political-military organization. I suppose the Faceless Men are a 'cult' but I still really don't get a sense of what motivates them. It would be interesting if it turned out that they're more or less the covert arm of the Iron Bank, the made men of it--I could imagine that, and it could be a reason why they send Arya back to Westeros without any real strings attached, because they know she'll rip the shit out of the Lannisters, who it turns out do *not* pay their debts.

I would have to assume they work with the Iron Bank. In one of his speeches to Arya he talks about how the Faceless Men are the founders of Braavos so one assumes they are patriotic and working for Braavos' long term interests, and probably still in the ruling circle when you factor in the cult's ancient connections, religious awe over the people and their powerful skills.

[HaemishM]

Ok, you're right, I forgot the Sand Snakes weren't trying to kill Myrcella, just kidnap her and put her on the Iron Throne. Or use her as a pawn for something something revenge for Oberon. Their beef with the Dornish king was about him not taking revenge for Oberon. They very much did want to invade Westeros and they did injure/scar Myrcella. That whole bit of Dornish bullshit from the books had so many moving parts, I've forgotten most of them and I'm glad the show did as well. So many characters that had no bearing on the rest of the story whatsoever.

That's not to say what the show had was better, just shorter. Still feels utterly unconnected to the whole thing.

[Threash]

So I'm just wondering, if they can bring Jon, both Cleganes and Thoros back.... then who is this standing behind the Waif in the just released photos for next episode?

Spoiler alert if true

God, i fucking hope not.

[eldaec]

Ok, you're right, I forgot the Sand Snakes weren't trying to kill Myrcella, just kidnap her and put her on the Iron Throne. Or use her as a pawn for something something revenge for Oberon. Their beef with the Dornish king was about him not taking revenge for Oberon. They very much did want to invade Westeros and they did injure/scar Myrcella. That whole bit of Dornish bullshit from the books had so many moving parts, I've forgotten most of them and I'm glad the show did as well. So many characters that had no bearing on the rest of the story whatsoever.

That's not to say what the show had was better, just shorter. Still feels utterly unconnected to the whole thing.

What the show did wrong imo was not introducing more of Dorne in season 3 or 4 so they had room for you to care about it.

They could easily have edited out 6 hours of Theon getting tortured and halved the number of Bran and Dany scenes to make room.

[eldaec]

So I'm just wondering, if they can bring Jon, both Cleganes and Thoros back.... then who is this standing behind the Waif in the just released photos for next episode?

Spoiler alert if true

God, i fucking hope not.

They like fucking with people who post popular but ridiculous theories, I'd rather they stop.

[Teleku]

It would be the most awesome thing ever if true.  I don't care what you all say!!!  All would be forgiven at that point!

[pants]

So I'm just wondering, if they can bring Jon, both Cleganes and Thoros back.... then who is this standing behind the Waif in the just released photos for next episode?

Spoiler alert if true

God, i fucking hope not.

Yup, this.  A show/book that made its mark by showing that noone is safe is really starting to lose that.

[Setanta]

I'm starting to think that the series is like the later Dune books. Want to revive a character - no worries - into the Axlotl tanks with some DNA and have Paul/Leto/Jessica/Duncan/Teg et.al back regardless of death. It's cheap and for me, the main reason that Jon Snow should have stayed dead.

I'll buy the Hound (didn't die) and to a much lesser extent LSH (she isn't Cat anymore but the equivalent of the dead the WWs raise) and I'll even buy into Robert Strong (just an automaton)... but not Thoros or Jon Snow.

Having said that, I'll sit back and enjoy the ride because if I don't suspend the disbelief too much then nothing will make sense.

[Khaldun]

Wait, did Thoros die?

[Sir T]

He raised people from the dead, calling on the lord of light.

[Tebonas]

Only ever one person at a time per Priest. Thats a tight limitation that helps not making death cheap.

[Khaldun]

And with some serious consequences--Beric isn't quite a zombie, but he's not a whole and independent human being any more.

If we're talking raising the dead, don't forget that *everyone* who dies north of the Wall or near it has been raised unless they've been burnt. So arguably everybody in the series who has died will eventually be joining the White Walkers as they move south.

[angry.bob]

God dammit writers, really? I fucking give up.

Also, Sandor Clegane: The Murderhobo in everyone's middle school D&D group.

[Merusk]

Whelp wtf Cleganebowl.

[Rendakor]

I thought this episode was fine.

[Khaldun]

Seriously. That was maybe ? the worst episode of the entire series to date.

Like, that was FOUR fucking anticlimaxes, FOUR wasted arcs. What the fuck.

Hound: I'M COMING AND HELL IS COMING WITH ME! Wait, what? Oh, ok, whatever, sure, I'll just hang these guys like you were going to anyway. Whatevs. At least I shoved an axe into someone's crotch and made a joke about chicken. I bet you thought something important was going to happen. Nope!

Arya: No, it wasn't a fake-out, I was actually stabbed in the gut by a trained assassin while trying to wander around town going la di dah to buy tickets to Westeros, I actually survived and wandered around town, I was actually nursed by an actual  actress lady who isn't anything other than what she appears to be (and claims to be good at stabbing-cures because she stabs lovers sometimes and then heals them), and then I actually ran through town chased by the least effective assassin in the history of face-changing assassin people and no, it was not a fake-out or a trick or anything even remotely clever, it was all goddamn literal. And then I just said, "Oh hai, master of assassins, I'm going home, seeya."

Blackfish: I WILL FIGHT FOREVER FOR...something I guess. Oh, hi, Brienne of Tarth, you were sent here for...some reason? Is there a story involved that someone is trying to tell? I guess? Can you tell me what the point of your coming here actually is? Like why we're all wasting time here? No? Ok, I'm going to go die off-camera so nobody has to waste time on a cool sword fight or anything.

Tyrion: Hi! I have been having character growth! I am really great at politics! Good luck Varys, I guess you have to go off and do the end of Dance With Dragons because it's in the contract or something. I'll just hang out here and eat up ten minutes of screen time with Drinking Games With Eunuchs and Translators. Oh! Fuck! We're being attacked! I guess I'm not a political genius! In previous seasons someone like Grey Worm would kill me right now as a useless fucking idiot but in this season I guess I just, I dunno, keep talking or whatever. Oh, good, it's Danerys who just walks in the room while Drogon flies away even though Mereen is being burnt to the ground. Congratulations! We wasted an entire season with a couple of decent scenes, we're sticking closely to the books after all.

I have enjoyed this season mostly but this episode made me wonder what the fuck is going through the writers' heads. I think maybe they need Martin more than I thought they did. In which case we're all screwed.

[Setanta]

So Braavos was Dorne Mk2 and Riverun was Dorne Mk3?

Seriously - the writers seem to have no idea and every single bit was anti-climatic.

The only highlight was Bronn/Pod and Brienne/Jamie and that was far too brief.

There was so much that they could have done with this episode, so much that it could have filled 2-3 episodes and yet they decided to have stupid jokes and boring discussions that resulted in nothing.

I agree, they really do need GRRM to help them out because you can see the exact point that there is no source material to draw on. I think the stories of him telling them how it all pans out are just that... stories.

[Tale]

I think maybe they need Martin more than I thought they did.

Well, they were fans who got Martin's permission to make a series by correctly answering his "Who is Jon Snow's mother?" question. So now that they've overtaken the books and he's given them permission to do as they please, it's fan fiction.

[Bunk]

I'm with Rendakor, I thought it was fun. The whole Clegane bowl stuff made no sense anyhow - the Hound gets nursed back to health by an old Septon and now he's somehow going to wind up champion of the faith an episode or two later? This was better - he wanted revenge on the guys who killed his friend. He got it, so that's done. Now he's deciding what to do next with his now rather pointless life.

Its not Masterpiece Theatre by a long stretch, but it managed to make me smile and even giggle a few times this episode. Good enough for me.

[Rasix]

This was awful, generic, predictable crap.  I hope the books (we'll never know, he won't finish) end up being a bit more creative than this.  

It's still entertaining, but it's really just turned into something where the plot armor is making for a lot of lazy resolutions to what were semi-interesting story lines. Gah.

[MahrinSkel]

I think that they are trying to quickly move towards the ending that GRRM laid out for them, and without his books for the path between they are having to fall back on classic tropes he would probably have inverted, subverted, or head-faked.

--Dave

[Velorath]

I think that they are trying to quickly move towards the ending that GRRM laid out for them, and without his books for the path between they are having to fall back on classic tropes he would probably have inverted, subverted, or head-faked.

--Dave

15 years ago he might have been able to do that since it's a lot easier to avoid tropes when you aren't actively trying to move forward to a resolution. Being willing to shockingly kill off main characters for instance only works for so long before it gets to the point where you start running low on characters the audience actually cares about and who can drive the plot (Walking Dead has much the same problem, although the writing there is worse as well). GRRM has already gotten to the point where he's willing to bring characters back from the dead (and will presumably do it with Jon Snow in the books as well) which is one of the cheesiest tropes you can use in fiction.

[Teleku]

Seriously. That was maybe ? the worst episode of the entire series to date.

Like, that was FOUR fucking anticlimaxes, FOUR wasted arcs. What the fuck.

Hound: I'M COMING AND HELL IS COMING WITH ME! Wait, what? Oh, ok, whatever, sure, I'll just hang these guys like you were going to anyway. Whatevs. At least I shoved an axe into someone's crotch and made a joke about chicken. I bet you thought something important was going to happen. Nope!

Arya: No, it wasn't a fake-out, I was actually stabbed in the gut by a trained assassin while trying to wander around town going la di dah to buy tickets to Westeros, I actually survived and wandered around town, I was actually nursed by an actual  actress lady who isn't anything other than what she appears to be (and claims to be good at stabbing-cures because she stabs lovers sometimes and then heals them), and then I actually ran through town chased by the least effective assassin in the history of face-changing assassin people and no, it was not a fake-out or a trick or anything even remotely clever, it was all goddamn literal. And then I just said, "Oh hai, master of assassins, I'm going home, seeya."

Blackfish: I WILL FIGHT FOREVER FOR...something I guess. Oh, hi, Brienne of Tarth, you were sent here for...some reason? Is there a story involved that someone is trying to tell? I guess? Can you tell me what the point of your coming here actually is? Like why we're all wasting time here? No? Ok, I'm going to go die off-camera so nobody has to waste time on a cool sword fight or anything.

Tyrion: Hi! I have been having character growth! I am really great at politics! Good luck Varys, I guess you have to go off and do the end of Dance With Dragons because it's in the contract or something. I'll just hang out here and eat up ten minutes of screen time with Drinking Games With Eunuchs and Translators. Oh! Fuck! We're being attacked! I guess I'm not a political genius! In previous seasons someone like Grey Worm would kill me right now as a useless fucking idiot but in this season I guess I just, I dunno, keep talking or whatever. Oh, good, it's Danerys who just walks in the room while Drogon flies away even though Mereen is being burnt to the ground. Congratulations! We wasted an entire season with a couple of decent scenes, we're sticking closely to the books after all.

I have enjoyed this season mostly but this episode made me wonder what the fuck is going through the writers' heads. I think maybe they need Martin more than I thought they did. In which case we're all screwed.

Yeah, everything you just said++.

This was a hard episode from me to get through.  Had to stop, roll my eyes, and do other things several times.  The character dialog is still great, but such wasted fucking plot.

There had really better be a reason they decided to bring back the fucking Riverrun arc even though they had already blessedly skipped that shit.  Brienne didn't get an army, Edmund sells out is castle and soldiers so they wont kill a baby he's never seen before, to a woman who was just sleeping with him so her family could slaughter his.  And they kill off the fucking Blackfish even though he actually does get away in the books.  They literally did the opposite of everything I thought might come out of that arc.  It seems really fucking pointless right now.

 

[eldaec]

Riverrun being a waste of time is a product of stabbing Robb's wife at the wedding just to fuck with book readers. She's supposed to be alive, in the castle, and possibly pregnant - which is why the siege matters (aside from just giving Jamie more screen time).

Braavos, yeah, well, TV writers. You have to wonder how hard it would have been to make the wound less obviously fatal last week.

[Khaldun]

Seriously. At least we might then have gotten an intimation that Arya is somewhat skilled, if she twisted away and just got wounded along the side or something. She got stabbed in the intestines and the blade got twisted. You don't get a bit of chicken soup and herbal medicine for that and get well enough to run away from the Terminator in 18 hours, especially after falling into a canal in a city where medieval sewage flows into the water. The whole thing was so fucking stupid that I still can't believe that there isn't some kind of twist to it. There was not one ounce of cleverness in the whole Braavos story arc as it plays out in the series. I'm not terribly fond of it in the books either, but it is at least somewhat more developed and you can see that Arya coming back to herself in the books is going to be a more momentous kind of thing.

[Setanta]

The sad thing is, she didn't even need to get stabbed.

Goes paranoid looking for a faceless waif
Optional: Heads to the only safe spot with the actress, could even kill actress by mistake or actress is JH... runs
Chased by waif into Arya's trap
Waif dies
Optional: Waif was Arya or JH

JH's line "finally you are no-one" was fucking stupid. Just because she killed the Waif doesn't suddenly make her a FM and she's holding needle to his chest - you know, the weapon that has held her individuality ever sice Jon gave it to her. It's the god damn sword the FM made her give up for that exact reason - it messed with her being no-one

[angry.bob]

The whole thing was so fucking stupid that I still can't believe that there isn't some kind of twist to it.

This episode was so "Nope, it's all exactly as it appears despite lots of twists" that in a way it was a twist itself. Of course that means Arya is an idiot for walking around crowds with her hands behind her back whistling, but whatever.

Another thing bothering me was the Blackfish, Edmund, and others still using "Kingslayer" as an insult to say Jaime has no honor or whatever. Meanwhile, people are running around killing their fathers and it's all cool with people because "he was a cunt" and they'd have killed their own dad if he hadn't died. I had been attributing to a general decline caused by high casualties amongst the older nobles in the war and a generation of less traditional, younger nobles coming to power. But now I just suspect it's more that I read to much into it and it was just shitty writing throwing established worldbuilding out the window for some easy plot devices.

[eldaec]

Poison. I'd have used poison. Easy to explain threat of death and hope of a cure.

Plus the waif was explictly shown teaching Arya about poison, so both characters get to act competant.

Also, Varys bothers me. Assuming he is going to do the thing he does in the books....  Why? In the books he did it to destablise KL, but on TV I can't see how it would make a blind bit of difference.  S6 has a whole bunch of people doing things they did in the books, but at a different time and in circumstances where it makes no sense.

It's not unlike the s5 problem where book dialog and actions would be given to different characters for whom it made no sense.

[angry.bob]

JH's line "finally you are no-one" was fucking stupid. Just because she killed the Waif doesn't suddenly make her a FM and she's holding needle to his chest - you know, the weapon that has held her individuality ever sice Jon gave it to her. It's the god damn sword the FM made her give up for that exact reason - it messed with her being no-one

Yeah, it was another instance of the episode wrecking seasons of previous worldbuilding. That ending scene took the Faceless Men from a group of ascetic monk-assassins with strict rules and traditions to to "Yeah, I told her to kill you, but you killed her. So fuck it, you get to be a faceless man. IT ALL WENT ACCORDING TO PLAN OR POSSIBLY MY COMPLETE INDIFFERENCE." It couldn't have gotten any dumber if they'd started playing I'm a Bitch when she started giving her I'M ARYA STARK thing and left.

[Teleku]

Yep.  Man who can look at you and slap you whenever you tell a single lie, even if you don't realize that it's a lie when you say it, is all "Finally!  You are truly nobody now!  How does it feel?"

[Speedy Cerviche]

Seriously. At least we might then have gotten an intimation that Arya is somewhat skilled, if she twisted away and just got wounded along the side or something. She got stabbed in the intestines and the blade got twisted. You don't get a bit of chicken soup and herbal medicine for that and get well enough to run away from the Terminator in 18 hours, especially after falling into a canal in a city where medieval sewage flows into the water. The whole thing was so fucking stupid that I still can't believe that there isn't some kind of twist to it. There was not one ounce of cleverness in the whole Braavos story arc as it plays out in the series. I'm not terribly fond of it in the books either, but it is at least somewhat more developed and you can see that Arya coming back to herself in the books is going to be a more momentous kind of thing.

It was just bad TV writing. They just add on ZAP! BLAMO! KABOOM!  moments because I guess they think that's what people want (hardly why the GoT show got popular in the first place though). They could have keep the realism level at least on this planet by either reducing her initial wound, or having a less dramatic car chase through San Francisco (say a hobbling Arya sneaks away a bit by outwitting her until finally cornered).

The whole Riverrun thing was very irksome as a waste of time. I guess it's supposed to be character development for Jamie & Brienne, but why did they kill off Blackfish when Martin made a big point of him sneaking out? He's supposed to be one of the best veteran marshals left.

The siege is already screaming TV stupidity when you have a surprise 1000 ship fleet city bombardment coming from wooden ships like they are all WW2 battleships. Ships don't fire on cities, because they are valuable and made of wood and can easily be set on fire themselves by return shot. Furthermore there are dragons all over the place that can drop fire on it from hundreds of feet above.

At least the KL stuff is getting interesting and one presumes coming to some kind of dramatic moment the next 2 episodes.