WotLK

[Rasix]

Shamans are going to be in a similar place because from what I've understood, one of the DPS trees is extremely broken/unpopular right now.

Ahh shit, now I'm curious if I'm the broken one or not.  I know my current spec (enhance) is pretty unpopular in pvp because you've got survivability of wet paper bag.  Shaman forums are proving unhelpful.

And my want for dual spec does go a bit deeper than leveling.   I'd love to be enhance for soloing, but the most common need of others for my time tends to be healing.  Will be even more so now that I've decided to give up on being unguilded for the time being.  Too quiet.    Heh, of course last time I was resto my guild had zero enhance shaman and problems fielding any melee dps at all. 

[Ingmar]

Shamans are going to be in a similar place because from what I've understood, one of the DPS trees is extremely broken/unpopular right now.

Ahh shit, now I'm curious if I'm the broken one or not.  I know my current spec (enhance) is pretty unpopular in pvp because you've got survivability of wet paper bag.  Shaman forums are proving unhelpful.

And my want for dual spec does go a bit deeper than leveling.   I'd love to be enhance for soloing, but the most common need of others for my time tends to be healing.  Will be even more so now that I've decided to give up on being unguilded for the time being.  Too quiet.    Heh, of course last time I was resto my guild had zero enhance shaman and problems fielding any melee dps at all. 

AFAIK elemental is the one generating the most tears, mostly because they can't AE down the trash with the other casters, and because they scale poorly. It feels weak to me at 71, a big step down from how I felt in TBC endgame (I was a mighty draenei who bestrode the DPS meter like a benevolent god) but I have no idea how he'll shake out in the endgame. As usual I am concentrating on my warrior for now, he is my one true love.

[Draegan]

One of the things I really, really want, yet fear will never come.  I've never once been asked out of the blue or invited in to a group yet in WOLK for DPS.  Everyone wants me to be resto. I'd like to get groups, but I'm not leveling as resto.  I just don't have that much time to watch mobs keel over exerting themselves trying to kill me.

It's all about what happens at the top, really. Levelling without the dungeons is actually preferrable if you want to do it faster. I've found they really put the emphasis on questing rather than dungeon xp. There are a few good quests, but I always check the rewards. Just my two cents on that part of it.

The other part is how druids are going to be forced back into healing roles. They've taken away some of the dominance of the bear tank survivability, which in groups is ok but in raids would be a more OT role. Shamans are going to be in a similar place because from what I've understood, one of the DPS trees is extremely broken/unpopular right now. Pallys are never coming back as healers until some drastic changes are made to their tanking ability and/or healing issues. Priests are doing great healing with CoH atm, but that will probably be nerfed as it's made them too "one button" for Blizzard's taste.

Paladin single target healing is sick which has splash healing and there is also that ability that copies the heal to someone else.  They are incredible in 10 mans supposedly.  This isn't first hand experience though.

[Fordel]

Paladin healing could be 5 times as powerful and effective as the other 3.5 healers in game, and it still wouldn't change the fact its absolutely retarded to play.

[Ingmar]

Paladin healing could be 5 times as powerful and effective as the other 3.5 healers in game, and it still wouldn't change the fact its absolutely retarded to play.

More than that, the paladin just flat out sucks at raid healing. Encounters like Malygos really highlight that. The splash healing on holy light is useless for doing anything other than a little topping up of your melee dps.

[Lightstalker]

Shamans are going to be in a similar place because from what I've understood, one of the DPS trees is extremely broken/unpopular right now.

Ahh shit, now I'm curious if I'm the broken one or not.  I know my current spec (enhance) is pretty unpopular in pvp because you've got survivability of wet paper bag.  Shaman forums are proving unhelpful.

And my want for dual spec does go a bit deeper than leveling.   I'd love to be enhance for soloing, but the most common need of others for my time tends to be healing.  Will be even more so now that I've decided to give up on being unguilded for the time being.  Too quiet.    Heh, of course last time I was resto my guild had zero enhance shaman and problems fielding any melee dps at all. 

AFAIK elemental is the one generating the most tears, mostly because they can't AE down the trash with the other casters, and because they scale poorly. It feels weak to me at 71, a big step down from how I felt in TBC endgame (I was a mighty draenei who bestrode the DPS meter like a benevolent god) but I have no idea how he'll shake out in the endgame. As usual I am concentrating on my warrior for now, he is my one true love.

Elemental Shaman got Shadowpriest complicated where a rigid rotation actually loses dps relative to "cast whatever lights up first."  Their DPS is also 'balanced' which means they are well behind Hunters, RetPaladins, Deathknights and Druids.
Enhancement Shaman feel unstoppable but sometimes puny caster daggers deal more dps than skullthumping hammers.  They are a little less balanced, and will get less so when their abilities/glyphs work properly.  That means they can top damage meters for specific fights, but lack the AoE required to perform well overall (your 25man raid only wants 1).  No other Shaman spec beats Enhance for levelling, no matter what your end goal spec is (every 2 min you can fill your mana bar while you fight - if you managed to empty it in the first place).
Resto Shaman lost Brain Heal and look to be migrating towards another 1-button wonder, LHW for an entirely new gimmicky build.  With Priests and Druids handling the raid healing and Priests and Paladins handling the single target healing, Resto Shaman are wondering wtf to do.  This one respec'd enhance.

Shaman were abused with this release and they haven't sorted themselves out yet.   A well stacked raid still wants 2 Shaman for heroism/Bloodlust, so that's Enhance +1 depending on what is available.  Shaman got CC in the form of Hex (which everyone ignores because the order of the day is to AoE everything), and the wolves return health for the damage they deal so that goes a long way to keeping you alive when you've ripped aggro and only have 18k health to last until a tank notices.

[Fordel]

Paladin healing could be 5 times as powerful and effective as the other 3.5 healers in game, and it still wouldn't change the fact its absolutely retarded to play.

More than that, the paladin just flat out sucks at raid healing. Encounters like Malygos really highlight that. The splash healing on holy light is useless for doing anything other than a little topping up of your melee dps.

They are apparently the ultimate PatchWerk healer though, so its fine 

[Nonentity]

Hunters are the golden gods of DPS right now. I have this one other I've been dungeoneering with, and we both have pretty much equivalent gear, he's consistently a good 5% higher on DPS charts, for no real reason.

It basically goes:

Hunter
Me
Rest of DPS

Not to say that fury warrior aren't totally busto right now, but hunters are MORE busto.

10 man and 25 man Naxx are BOTH easy. Malygos is pretty fun, except when your healers are retarded. Paladins are only good for single-target healing, and lack ANY type of sufficient group/raid healing. Holy Bacon is a band-aid on a festering wound.

[kildorn]

Paladin healing could be 5 times as powerful and effective as the other 3.5 healers in game, and it still wouldn't change the fact its absolutely retarded to play.

More than that, the paladin just flat out sucks at raid healing. Encounters like Malygos really highlight that. The splash healing on holy light is useless for doing anything other than a little topping up of your melee dps.

I rock at healing!

*AE damage*

... fuck.

The sad thing is that Malygos exists after they acknowledged their old design of random high raid damage was completely fucking over paladins. Malygos just takes it to 11 and fucks over shaman, too.

[Nonentity]

Paladin healing could be 5 times as powerful and effective as the other 3.5 healers in game, and it still wouldn't change the fact its absolutely retarded to play.

More than that, the paladin just flat out sucks at raid healing. Encounters like Malygos really highlight that. The splash healing on holy light is useless for doing anything other than a little topping up of your melee dps.

I rock at healing!

*AE damage*

... fuck.

The sad thing is that Malygos exists after they acknowledged their old design of random high raid damage was completely fucking over paladins. Malygos just takes it to 11 and fucks over shaman, too.

To be fair, they can NS + Chain Heal.








Once every two minutes.

[Slayerik]

Hunters are the golden gods of DPS right now. I have this one other I've been dungeoneering with, and we both have pretty much equivalent gear, he's consistently a good 5% higher on DPS charts, for no real reason.

It basically goes:

Hunter
Me
Rest of DPS

Not to say that fury warrior aren't totally busto right now, but hunters are MORE busto.

10 man and 25 man Naxx are BOTH easy. Malygos is pretty fun, except when your healers are retarded. Paladins are only good for single-target healing, and lack ANY type of sufficient group/raid healing. Holy Bacon is a band-aid on a festering wound.

You expect a DPS specced tank class to outdamage a pure DPS class? The price you pay for running an off spec IMO. With some gear, you can respec and become a great tank. DPS classes cannot. I personally think similarly geared rogues, locks, mages, and hunters should have the edge on you. Then stuff like Fury warriors, any spec druids, any spec shaman, ret pallys,  shadow priests, should be slightly less.

As a hunter, I can't, on a whim, decide I'll respec and heal for a 5 man. Less DPS should be the price you pay for versatility. Everyone else seems to pay for it.

[WindupAtheist]

Woe to the "pure" DPS classes when dual-spec comes out. The hybrids will all be running around as heal/DPS, DPS/tank, or tank/heal, while a billion super-coolio kiddie rogues sit around going "Durrh, I'm DPS/ ...different DPS!"

 

[Koyasha]

As I've seen blue posts recently, the design no longer includes a price for versatility.  They keep saying that their intention is that between say, a hunter and a druid/shaman/warrior/paladin/etc specced for DPS, the difference should come down to player skill and gear, and that neither one should be noticeably inferior purely because of their class.

[MrHat]

Woe to the "pure" DPS classes when dual-spec comes out. The hybrids will all be running around as heal/DPS, DPS/tank, or tank/heal, while a billion super-coolio kiddie rogues sit around going "Durrh, I'm DPS/ ...different DPS!"

 

More likely PvE DPS/PvP.

[Morfiend]

Woe to the "pure" DPS classes when dual-spec comes out. The hybrids will all be running around as heal/DPS, DPS/tank, or tank/heal, while a billion super-coolio kiddie rogues sit around going "Durrh, I'm DPS/ ...different DPS!"

 

More likely PvE DPS/PvP.

Ding ding ding.

I would loved to have had dual specs back when I was raiding hardcore, as a Raiding PVE Rogue was absolutely horrible at arena. I ended up spending over 100 gold a week on respecs, also, now including Glyphs are going to be even more expensive unless they add in dual glyphing also.

[Paelos]

There isn't a tank in the game who wouldn't want a viable DPS spec as his second. The same goes for the healers. With the DPS classes, I can see a dual spec offering utility in raiding beyond just simple pvp/pve. What if certain boss fights are DPS races? All the DPS can go to their highest DPS spec. What if it's more of a survival fight? You can swap to the more pvp/stam/survival gear and spec. Those are the only two kinds of boss fights there are, you either outlive, or you outdamage.

[K9]

I would loved to have had dual specs back when I was raiding hardcore, as a Raiding PVE Rogue was absolutely horrible at arena. I ended up spending over 100 gold a week on respecs, also, now including Glyphs are going to be even more expensive unless they add in dual glyphing also.

ummm.... when do glyphs expire?

I've respecced 3-4 times now and I still have all my glyphs.

[kildorn]

I would loved to have had dual specs back when I was raiding hardcore, as a Raiding PVE Rogue was absolutely horrible at arena. I ended up spending over 100 gold a week on respecs, also, now including Glyphs are going to be even more expensive unless they add in dual glyphing also.

ummm.... when do glyphs expire?

I've respecced 3-4 times now and I still have all my glyphs.

Spec specific glyphs. There are a TON of them.

[MrHat]

I don't think they'll offer a different glyph spec.  It's a viable way of maintaining the profession.  With enchanting, you're always changing your gear (mostly).  With inscription, it's probably the way it was intended.

I've been buying up lots of scrolls and consumables on the AH.  More so than before.  They're very handy.

[Koyasha]

I'm pretty sure I remember reading a writeup about them saying at Blizzcon they were planning to have glyph-swapping included.  It's probably in one of the panel writeups on MMO-Champion or in one of the recordings on wowradio.

[K9]

I would loved to have had dual specs back when I was raiding hardcore, as a Raiding PVE Rogue was absolutely horrible at arena. I ended up spending over 100 gold a week on respecs, also, now including Glyphs are going to be even more expensive unless they add in dual glyphing also.

ummm.... when do glyphs expire?

I've respecced 3-4 times now and I still have all my glyphs.

Spec specific glyphs. There are a TON of them.

That would explain it, although thats pretty useless since there are very few spec-specific glyps for priests (5/27 priest glyphs are linked to a talented ability, and of those 5 only two are of any arguable use), and even fewer that we would actually use. I can't say for other classes though.

[Dren]

I'll be using it for all my chars in one way or another.  I could REALLY use it now for my Paladin considering he's 80 and we need healers for raiding NOW.  I've been dragging my feet because the holy spec for Pally's is terrible for anything else right now.

[MrHat]

I'd probably rock an elemental DPS+PVP // resto PVE dual, with minimal equipment changes.

[Ingmar]

I would loved to have had dual specs back when I was raiding hardcore, as a Raiding PVE Rogue was absolutely horrible at arena. I ended up spending over 100 gold a week on respecs, also, now including Glyphs are going to be even more expensive unless they add in dual glyphing also.

ummm.... when do glyphs expire?

I've respecced 3-4 times now and I still have all my glyphs.

Spec specific glyphs. There are a TON of them.

That would explain it, although thats pretty useless since there are very few spec-specific glyps for priests (5/27 priest glyphs are linked to a talented ability, and of those 5 only two are of any arguable use), and even fewer that we would actually use. I can't say for other classes though.

It doesn't need to be tied to a specced ability to be 'spec-specific'. You're not going to see shadow priests carrying many healing glyphs. If you want to be at top effectiveness you need to change your glyphs out. The good news is they told us at Blizzcon that we'd have two glyph specs to go with our two talent specs.

[K9]

Right, I misunderstood. Still, for priests the difference between disc and holy is one major glyph at most, since most priest healers will take the Flash Heal and Dispel Magic glyphs.

[Gobbeldygook]

As I've seen blue posts recently, the design no longer includes a price for versatility.  They keep saying that their intention is that between say, a hunter and a druid/shaman/warrior/paladin/etc specced for DPS, the difference should come down to player skill and gear, and that neither one should be noticeably inferior purely because of their class.

No.  The most recent blue posts are that yes, the 'pure' DPS classes (rogue/hunter/mage/warlock) are supposed to beat the other ones on the meters assuming completely equal gear, skill, raid buffs/debuffs, and no bias from the fight design (e.g. Loatheb is biased in favor of specs that value crit highly).  Earlier, the party line was what you said, but it has evolved

[WindupAtheist]

I did Borean Tundra and then decided to go feast on Howling Fjord. Between that and my random grinding, screwing around in Outland to help lower level friends, and so forth, I'll be 75 before I leave the starter zones of Northrend.

 

[Ingmar]

As I've seen blue posts recently, the design no longer includes a price for versatility.  They keep saying that their intention is that between say, a hunter and a druid/shaman/warrior/paladin/etc specced for DPS, the difference should come down to player skill and gear, and that neither one should be noticeably inferior purely because of their class.

No.  The most recent blue posts are that yes, the 'pure' DPS classes (rogue/hunter/mage/warlock) are supposed to beat the other ones on the meters assuming completely equal gear, skill, raid buffs/debuffs, and no bias from the fight design (e.g. Loatheb is biased in favor of specs that value crit highly).  Earlier, the party line was what you said, but it has evolved

You guys are both right. They designed out most of the difference, but the pure specs will still come out ahead. The margin is much, much smaller, though, and the random nature of who gets upgrades when during the raid progression process will for the most part obscure it completely.

[Sjofn]

Paladin single target healing is sick which has splash healing and there is also that ability that copies the heal to someone else.  They are incredible in 10 mans supposedly.  This isn't first hand experience though.

Beacon of Light is an OK bandaid, but that is all it is, and the splash healing, as mentioned, is not enough. Also, if I do anything but Ye Olde Flash of Light spam, I run my ass out of mana right quick. My disc specced priest is far more versatile and efficient. Holy paladin healing is boring and more difficult at the same time (no HoT or REAL AE healing makes a lot of encounters blow more than they need to, plus any fight that involves movement), and a lot holy paladins are finally saying, "Fuck this, I'm doing something else."

And, of course, leveling a holy paladin fucking sucks, especially after they nerfed ret paladins and they got caught in the crossfire. The bad part is that sure, one could respec, but then they have to build a second suit from scratch, unlike, oh, all the other healers.

[Nonentity]

As I've seen blue posts recently, the design no longer includes a price for versatility.  They keep saying that their intention is that between say, a hunter and a druid/shaman/warrior/paladin/etc specced for DPS, the difference should come down to player skill and gear, and that neither one should be noticeably inferior purely because of their class.

No.  The most recent blue posts are that yes, the 'pure' DPS classes (rogue/hunter/mage/warlock) are supposed to beat the other ones on the meters assuming completely equal gear, skill, raid buffs/debuffs, and no bias from the fight design (e.g. Loatheb is biased in favor of specs that value crit highly).  Earlier, the party line was what you said, but it has evolved

You guys are both right. They designed out most of the difference, but the pure specs will still come out ahead. The margin is much, much smaller, though, and the random nature of who gets upgrades when during the raid progression process will for the most part obscure it completely.

This. The reason I say that hunters need an eyeball is that while I'm fine with pure DPS classes being 2-3% ahead of hybrid classes with equal gear and skill, a hunter shouldn't be 5-6% ahead of EVERYone.

I'm sure they will be, though, as most WWS parses I've looked at are something like this:

Hunter
Hunter
Fury Warrior
Hunter
DK

Who I truly feel bad for is rogues - with so much emphasis (at least in these tiers) on AOE and AOE packs, they are consistently fighting to keep pace with tanks.

[Nonentity]

Also, this:

Fast comparison

Volley:
Channeled 6 sec, total of 3030 base Arcane damage
No cooldown
17% base mana
Radius: 8 yd
AP coefficient? (I'm guessing around 20-30% AP total?)
Notable talents: 6% chance to daze for 4 seconds
100% pushback reduction.

Blizzard:
Channeled 8 sec, total of 3408 base Frost damage
No cooldown
74% base mana
Radius: 8 yd
76% spellpower coefficient (in TBC at least)
Notable talents: 65% snare on targets > 15% chance to freeze (I think Frostbite works on this)

From Wowhead on Volley

[Draegan]

I did Borean Tundra and then decided to go feast on Howling Fjord. Between that and my random grinding, screwing around in Outland to help lower level friends, and so forth, I'll be 75 before I leave the starter zones of Northrend.

 

I finally got both quest achievements in BT and HF and I'm about 400k shy of 75 before doing any quests in Dragonblight.

[Ingmar]

As I've seen blue posts recently, the design no longer includes a price for versatility.  They keep saying that their intention is that between say, a hunter and a druid/shaman/warrior/paladin/etc specced for DPS, the difference should come down to player skill and gear, and that neither one should be noticeably inferior purely because of their class.

No.  The most recent blue posts are that yes, the 'pure' DPS classes (rogue/hunter/mage/warlock) are supposed to beat the other ones on the meters assuming completely equal gear, skill, raid buffs/debuffs, and no bias from the fight design (e.g. Loatheb is biased in favor of specs that value crit highly).  Earlier, the party line was what you said, but it has evolved

You guys are both right. They designed out most of the difference, but the pure specs will still come out ahead. The margin is much, much smaller, though, and the random nature of who gets upgrades when during the raid progression process will for the most part obscure it completely.

This. The reason I say that hunters need an eyeball is that while I'm fine with pure DPS classes being 2-3% ahead of hybrid classes with equal gear and skill, a hunter shouldn't be 5-6% ahead of EVERYone.

I'm sure they will be, though, as most WWS parses I've looked at are something like this:

Hunter
Hunter
Fury Warrior
Hunter
DK

Who I truly feel bad for is rogues - with so much emphasis (at least in these tiers) on AOE and AOE packs, they are consistently fighting to keep pace with tanks.

Drill it down to just DPS done on bosses using WWS or the like and I suspect the lead won't be as silly. Volley is kind of nuts at the moment, but trash dps doesn't really count that much as far as the raid's actual success.

[Fordel]

Trash DPS allows my Prot Paladin to win the meter half the time. 

[Morfiend]

Blizzard has already stated that Hunter DPS "may be a tad to high" and are "keeping a close eye on it".