Are Dev's Bad, or do MMO PVP Games Not Work?
UnSub:
Quote from: Jayce on October 24, 2008, 10:11:10 PM
Quote from: UnSub on October 24, 2008, 10:05:49 PM
The problem is that 'meaningful' PvP only feels good when you are winning. Getting stomped into the dirt is less fun,
Not true. The agony of defeat doesn't stop athletes from chasing the thrill of victory. Not everyone has the guts for it, sure, but that's why there are pure PvE games.
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as is being in a permanent world where you are almost guaranteed to always be a bug unless you are willing to devote a 40 hour work week to PvP.
This would be a design flaw IMO. A common one, to be sure.
I actually think game devs should think more about sports psychology when they build PvP games.
Also, time in game = training. As you get more training, you improve. At some point, that training is going to help you win in an otherwise matched contest. That can't be a design flaw. (Rare random loot drops that require lots of time investment in-game are, of course, an incredibly stupid idea but I'm glad the MMO industry is moving away from that kind of idea.)
Fordel:
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Both Planetside and Guildwars involved the unlocking of character options no? I would consider this a power curve. Flexibility, even if you can only leverage it outside of a hot zone, is definitely an advantage. Guild Wars especially had you playing with a partial deck of skills to draw from unless you paid your dues in the horrendous PvE of that game.
I can't speak for Guild Wars release, but by the time I started playing Guild Wars (around their first "expansion") you could get any Skill/Item for PvP within hours. Probably less. If you were SUPER impatient, you could simply pay an extra 20 bucks or something and have *every* PvP item/skill unlocked.
There's no barrier to entry in GuildWars PvP, outside of the social/player-skill aspect (which is admittedly very large at times). I could setup any template for any class in Guildwars in a Saturday afternoon and it isn't like you lose any of it. Once it's unlocked, it's unlocked for any PvP character (heck skills are even unlocked for your HeroHenchmen in the pve campaigns too, most of my henchmen have better skills then my actual PvE characters).
No where even remotely in the same league as WoW or DaoC or any other MMO I've played.
eldaec:
Quote from: UnSub on October 24, 2008, 10:05:49 PM
The problem is that 'meaningful' PvP only feels good when you are winning. Getting stomped into the dirt is less fun, as is being in a permanent world where you are almost guaranteed to always be a bug unless you are willing to devote a 40 hour work week to PvP.
DAoC had plenty of situations you could lose in a fun way (and plenty of ways to lose in an unfun way).
EVE, Planetside, Shadowbane and the rest are the same.
Mostly it depends on whether losing is instant death to a steam train after spending a lot of time setting up. Or whether you get to take your shot, be involved in something a little epic, and lose after a pitch battle.
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There's no barrier to entry in GuildWars PvP, outside of the social/player-skill aspect (which is admittedly very large at times).
When I'm talking about barriers to entry in sport-pvp the social barrier is exactly what I'm talking about.
I'm sure it is possible to set up a system of achiever end-game sport pvp without insurmountable social barriers for new players, but I've never seen it.
Fordel:
Yea, I agree with that. I was just responding to the idea that there is some kind of 'PvE Grind' in Guildwars for PvP. If there was, it certainly isn't there now, is all I'm trying to say.
Ratman_tf:
Quote from: LC on October 24, 2008, 04:45:49 PM
Quote from: Nija on October 24, 2008, 04:36:15 PM
Quote from: eldaec on October 24, 2008, 04:15:35 PM
EVE has its own form of Trammel in the shape of Empire space, and while it doesn't offer perfect protection from Slayerik, CCP has shown they will shrink loopholes as they arise to stop ganking being too common in Empire.
You are right. This is an important thing that is missing from everything, essentially, except Eve. There needs to be a greater "Empire Space" where people can see everything the game has to offer under the strict, but not overbearing, control of the developers. NPC guards that show up and kill you - no stealing from players, whatever.
They also, in my opinion, definitely need those outlier areas that let the players create their own content. Even if that is Nazi Germany vs Poland.
There needs to be some kind of carrot (or whatever the fuck sheep like to eat) to lure the sheep out of the safe pasture and into the forest. Something so tasty they would regularly risk their lives for it.
I agree that there should be incentives for playing in dangerous territory, but leave the sheep out of it. They aren't suited for PvP, and won't have any fun.
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I think most of us can agree that DIKU levels and geargrind is unhealthy for PvP. It can be done. It has been done. But never in a very satisfactory manner.
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