Are Dev's Bad, or do MMO PVP Games Not Work?
Slayerik:
Subspace:
Death Penalty? No
Item Loss? No
Item Dependant? No
Dev kill? No
Indy or AAA? Indy
It worked. Not a huge player draw though playing asteriods in space. Still alive today, still fun.
UO:
Death Penalty? Yes - Put out of fight as a ghost until able to be resurrected by players or wandering NPC/shrine
Item Loss? Full
Item Dependant? Slightly
Dev Kill? Dev's ripped the soul out of the game.
Indy or AAA? AAA
Player skill mattered in UO, exploits hurt the game badly though. Was , and still is, considered some of the best MMO PVP ever. Still alive today, I guess.
Neocron:
Death Penalty? Yes, you were removed from the fight and taken to (sometimes) far away bind point. Had some item drop
Item Loss? Varied throughout game life.
Item Dependant? Yes
Dev Kill? Only do to some major bugs and poor PVE design.
Indy or AAA? Indy
Bad initial grind to get to the fun. Small group outpost battles were win. Good PVP
Shadowbane:
Death Penalty? Yes, backpack drop and trip to the tree
Item Loss? Backback only
Item Dependant? No
Dev Kill? Sb.exe , glaring bugs, extremely poor PVE design. Diku PVP failure.
Indy or AAA? Indy
Planetside:
Death Penalty? Minor
Item Loss? Full
Item Dependant? No
Dev Kill? No. Yes. No. I don't know really...
Indy or AAA? AAA
The concept is awesome, but sluggish FPS game lost its luster. Graphics were dated when release. Good try, missing the hook.
EvE:
Death Penalty? Yes, full item loss. Insurance makes this less painful
Item Loss? Full
Item Dependant? Somewhat
Dev Kill? No. Game survives and thrives to this day.
Indy or AAA?
EvE PvP is niche. There are heavy grind aspects, but is a good alternative to all Diku games and is a different setting.
Lineage (1):
Death Penalty? Yes. Loss of XP, possible to de-level and lose abilities.
Item Loss? Yes. Limited by alignment.
Item Dependent? Somewhat.
Dev kill? Too grindy for fat lazy Americans. Still big in places where they speak funny.
Indy or AAA? Indy that became AAA PDQ.
Lineage 2:
Death Penalty? Yes. See above.
Item Loss? Yes. See above.
Item Dependent? More than above.
Dev kill? See above. And then some.
Indy or AAA? Very much AAA now.
AoC:
Death Penalty? Very Minor.
Item Loss? No.
Item Dependant? Yes
Dev Kill? Yes. Game was prematurely released and devs failed to address the glaring holes in the game.
Indy or AAA? AAA
AOC stood out for a while with a different combat system, but the bait and switch chafed many asses. The PVP was fun, but the grind was not. Another Diku PVP failure.
Warhammer:
Death Penalty? Minor
Item Loss? No.
Item Dependant?
Dev kill? Verdict is still out.
Indy or AAA? AAA
Signs aren't looking good, pointing towards another Diku PVP failure.
I did not play Guildwars.
From looking at these, the most common thing I see is Diku and PVP don't mix. Skill based, non-item based seems to be key for what I find to be a good PVP system. This is a lot of games (and there are more like Fury) that have failed. What is the MMO genre missing when it comes to massive PVP? It's hard to believe it is the infrastructure these days. Bandwidth is readily available. Why is it no dev house can seem to make a game with that Counterstrike kind of replayability and grab? Are we closer, or farther away than 1997?
Venkman:
I think the better question is: do MMO PvP games have broad appeal in the way some pre-WoW DAoC-RvR fans thinks it could. I contend that conventional wisdom considers this a risky territory not worth of the sort of development resources really needed to even try and do it right by itself.
Entire genres exist with more solid and more specific PvP, like every sports, RTS and FPS title out there. I get the sense these days that the sort of escapist immersion people seek is roughly akin to getting sucked into a good casual online game where you can occasionally interact with other people to share the achievements or get help from them to do so. PvP that gets in the way of that has largely only appealed to the people who try to get in the way of others, or the smaller subset of players who are truly seeking that totally accountable immersive world. I personally believe that the deepest immersion in an MMO is only possible with full-on PvP. But I also know I won't like that game. And I suspect not enough others do anymore to make a serious (as in, lots of budget) try at it.
The days where PvP mattered to ones own holdings in the world seem to be pretty far behind us. Nobody wants to lose their shit, especially to another player. And no other genre really makes you lose your stuff and have it lost forever. You win or lose and the world resets.
Trying to apply that here is a contradiction to the RPG roots. But it also works very well (in the form of WoW BGs and WAR Scenarios) because nobody goes into those caring beyond whether they advance a little by losing or advance a lot by winning.
So it's not that MMO Devs aren't good at it or haven't tried their hardest. It's that the potentially limited appeal narrows the resources put against the goal at all.
Mrbloodworth:
Item progression/time investment + Items with Stats that determine outcome + PvP = fail.
Planetside out of all you listed, got this right. EXP/Time/Whatever does not increase your power, it only expands your options.
Ingmar:
You left off DAOC. Love it or not, it was clearly a successful PVP MMO, and it was Diku-based.
ahoythematey:
I'd say further than ever before. Too many of the people in charge seem to be intoxicated by the ideas of subscription dollars they can gamble towards by trying to be a watered down dog-turd that the carebear majority will like.
The closest I ever saw a DIKU get to fun PvP that didn't have sb.exe was the Darktide server in Asheron's Call, and that was mostly due to the community driving it and Turbine giving them the choice, without any tools beyond letting the players attack each other without restriction.
Well, I suppose you could say they provided little carrots to fight over later in the game with the allegiance manors...
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