Watchmen

[IainC]

(I don't honestly know where Draconian is from.)

It's a Greek work meaning 'like Draco'. Draco was a 6th century BC lawmaker who was famous for instituting a particularly harsh code of laws as part of Athens' first written constitution..

[Riggswolfe]

UK. Australia has it rated as an MA15+ (Mature Accompanied. This category is legally restricted in that children under 15 cannot see "MA" films or rent them on video unless accompanied by a parent or adult guardian) 18 in UK means that people under 18 can't see the film in a cinema or rent/buy on dvd.

That's what I figured. I thought Australia because my impression was they tend to be a bit more restrictive on stuff like this than the US or UK. So, it sounds like it got the equivalent of a US NC-17 in the Uk. Interesting.

[Samwise]

This was one of a couple small changes from the book that I thought was kinda odd.  In the original, Rorschach handcuffs the killer to a pipe, leaves him a hacksaw, and sets the place on fire...

Honestly, my assumption is that the change was made because that kind of killing is basically a stereotype for crazy badass these days. On the other hand, seeing him go crazy on the guy with a hacksaw was very effective at showing how he snapped.

I thought it was because most of the moviegoing public would say "oh, they totally ripped that off from Saw".

[HaemishM]

I thought an essentially omnipotent being could come up with a better solution.  Like trap him on Saturn in a permanent air bubble with a satellite television and a bag of holding of beer.

This omnipotent being cared as little for one human life as for 15 million. Why bother taking the effort to trap him when killing him has the same moral impact to Manhatten as killing an ant?

[sidereal]

I thought an essentially omnipotent being could come up with a better solution.  Like trap him on Saturn in a permanent air bubble with a satellite television and a bag of holding of beer.

This omnipotent being cared as little for one human life as for 15 million. Why bother taking the effort to trap him when killing him has the same moral impact to Manhatten as killing an ant?

We had this conversation a whole page ago.  The claim that Manhattan had no moral sensibility is belied by about 30 consecutive minutes of dialogue and activity.  I'll be happy to return to this thread and paste in the relevant portions when the script is available online.

[Samwise]

I think Rorschach screaming "Do it!  DO IT!" probably factored into his decision to do it.

[sidereal]

Do what?  Maybe he was screaming for him to DO [TELEPORTING ME TO SATURN WITH INIFINIBEER]!

This is an unresolvable dispute.  Either you find his sudden, brutal explosion of a long-time companion plausible or you don't.  I don't.  I can live with it.  You can't convince me it's plausible and clearly I can't suddenly unconvince other people.

[Samwise]

Do what?  Maybe he was screaming for him to DO [TELEPORTING ME TO SATURN WITH INIFINIBEER]!

Now you're just being  because you know I'm right.   

[Velorath]

Early review of Tales of the Black Freighter.  Not really much of a review, but it's the first detailed explanation I've seen of how Under the Hood was being done.

[Samwise]

So there's going to be a mondo 4-hour cut that includes all the Black Freighter stuff integrated into the movie the way it was in the comic?  Holy  .

[Velorath]

So there's going to be a mondo 4-hour cut that includes all the Black Freighter stuff integrated into the movie the way it was in the comic?  Holy  .

Yeah, they've said that the director's cut of the movie will be out on dvd around the time of SDCC, and then the Ultimate version (director's cut + Black Freighter integrated into the movie) should be released in the Fall.

[Samwise]

Snyder is fucking hardcore.  When they made the Constantine movie they couldn't even bother to keep him British.

[Hindenburg]

Snyder is fucking hardcore.  When they made the Constantine movie they couldn't even bother to keep him British.

If that'd have been the one place where they deviated from the source material, I'd have loved the movie. Instead, they gave us matrix with angels.

[Velorath]

Also for those who missed the Black Freighter trailer link in the other thread you can find it here.

[Yoru]

Saturday Morning Watchmen. 

Edit: Movie comes out here tonight, already have tickets and a sixer of beer to lube up the ol' suspension of disbelief.

[Hoax]

This was very good.  I didn't expect to like it really and it was solid and enjoyable.  Casting director did an amazing job.

[Tale]

but I did facepalm at the ejaculating ship (true to the source or no).

You and everyone who commented about the sex scene above you are fucking stupid. Films are wasted on you.

- Edit: Why? Because it wasn't trying to be canon, it wasn't trying to offer gratuitous tits, it wasn't trying to be a ridiculously long sex scene, it was a deliberately over-the-top and overplayed sex scene in a very intelligent and witty film, with the ejaculating ship ending the "how superheroes would have sex" self-parody. And all you looked for in it was a Hollywood blockbuster sex scene, and thought you were seeing one badly done!

[Tale]

I thought Australia because my impression was they tend to be a bit more restrictive on stuff like this than the US or UK.

Sorry, but you have the wrong impression. Australia's censors are very liberal.

The false impression comes from our videogame censorship laws. Our politicians have not grasped that games are an art form - they still think games are for kids. So our videogame classifications only go as high as MA15+ because anyone aged over 15 who plays games is obviously a timewaster clinging to childhood. Therefore any videogame that would need an R18+ rating gets refused classification, because it can't be classified - not because the censors actually want to ban it.

This gets wrongly reported in media as "Australia bans another videogame", when it's actually a bunch of very liberal censors saying "we can't release this because you haven't given us a proper classification scheme".

The campaign to get an R18+ videogame classification then sparks up again. This gets wrongly reported in local media as "censors want to crack down on violent videogames and use an R18+ classification to keep them out of reach of kids", so there is an outcry against the campaign from the very gamers who would benefit from it.

Also, apparently getting an R18+ classification requires unanimous agreement of all state and federal attorneys-general. All of them approve except for one (South Australia's), so they can never get it through.

It often ends up with Watchmen the movie released as MA15+ and Watchmen the game refused classification :(

[Tale]

On the film itself: that was amazing. It got right into my imagination and took it places, like watching Star Wars for the first time as a kid, except this was for my grown-up imagination. It kept offering the unexpected and never dumbed anything down. Loved it.

[raydeen]

Just got done watching the Watchmen. Interesting film. I've never read the graphic novel and in all honesty, had never heard of it until all the hype started. I'm interested in seeing the director's cut as it left me feeling that there was too much left on the cutting room floor. I felt the same about LotR: Return of the King. Something felt disjointed about that when I saw it in theater but that went away when I saw the director's cut on DVD. Parts of Watchmen felt rushed or glossed over.

Gotta say though, Rorschach just replaced Wolverine as Most. Badass. Hero. Evah. 

[Margalis]

with the ejaculating ship ending the "how superheroes would have sex" self-parody

Except that they aren't superheroes.

Also in the comic Rorschach was purposely drawn to look ugly and deranged and by the end he came off as a pathetic loser with weird emotional issues rather than a bad-ass.

[Hindenburg]

Also in the comic Rorschach was purposely drawn to look ugly and deranged and by the end he came off as a pathetic loser with weird emotional issues rather than a bad-ass.

No, he did not. In the end he came off as a pathetic and completely batshit insane loser with PRINCIPLES, damnit!

[gryeyes]

I watched this with a group of friends who had never read the comic. They did a real poor job of displaying the "heroes" as normal humans stuck in something over their head. My friends were completely unaware that the Watchmen were not superhumans.

Most of the big "reveals" that were the center pieces of the comics are either non-existent or very weak. An entertaining movie nonetheless Im hoping the DVD version helps it come together. The soundtrack appeared to be someones play list set to random.

[Tale]

with the ejaculating ship ending the "how superheroes would have sex" self-parody

Except that they aren't superheroes.

So? It was still a "how superheroes would have sex" joke between the filmmakers and the audience.

Apart from that, every single person who went to see the film who hasn't read the book would come away thinking that they were superhuman. Movement speeds, damage inflicted and damage taken was consistent with what people expect from superhumans, not humans, and there was no explanation of how the main characters could do this without being superhuman (even though much of the other stuff was shown to come down to tech and skill).

[Rendakor]

Having never read the comic, I admit to coming to the conclusion that they were all superhumans (if not super heroes). I just figured they were all generic MA/SR scrappers or something. It is never made clear that they are normal in any way, shape or form.

[raydeen]

I never figured them for superhumans (Dr. Manhattan aside), just highly trained, really buff regular joes like Batman, Green Arrow, the Punisher, etc. Rorschach seemed to be the only one with with slightly weird powers with his mood mask, but that just added to the extremely cool factor. What really killed the suspension of disbelief was the god awful Richard Nixon mask. What the fuck was that? I facepalmed every time President Pinocchio appeared on screen. They at least got Henry Kissinger right.

And Ozymandias' 'Snarf' didn't help either.

[UnSub]

The old person make-up in "Watchmen" was very bad. Nixon looked like a rubber puppet version of himself.

[Margalis]

Having never read the comic, I admit to coming to the conclusion that they were all superhumans (if not super heroes).

A lot of people came to this conclusion, which to me means the movie was a failure. From what I've seen nearly everyone who didn't read the book first didn't get any of the themes that were central to the comic.

Myself in 2007:

I'd be amazed if Rorschach comes off as anything other than some angry ass-kicker. Hollywood is good at certain things; introspection is not one of them

(breaks arm patting self on back)

[apocrypha]

Do what?  Maybe he was screaming for him to DO [TELEPORTING ME TO SATURN WITH INIFINIBEER]!

This is an unresolvable dispute.  Either you find his sudden, brutal explosion of a long-time companion plausible or you don't.  I don't.  I can live with it.  You can't convince me it's plausible and clearly I can't suddenly unconvince other people.

Not seen the film yet and won't be able to until it's released on DVD/BD because my back precludes me from 3 hours in a cinema seat.

However, first off there's no such thing as an unresolvable dispute, only those that go on so long everyone becomes bored  As for why Osterman killed Rorschach, honestly, what else could he do? The entire point of his solitude on Mars sojourn was that at the end of it he came to accept that human life had value. As a result of that he decided to intervene in human affairs again, and as a result of both of those decisions he came to the acceptance of Veidt's plan - the ends justified the means.

His decision to kill Rorschach was not just a throwaway event designed to look good but a clear expression of his re-engagement with humanity and his decision not to undo what Veidt had done. Anything else he could have done to prevent Rorschach trying to expose Veidt's plan would have been worse for Rorschach than death. Imprisoned and impotent somewhere? That would have been unbearable torment for Rorschach. He can't manipulate thoughts, only the physical world.

Anyway, like I said, this is based only on the comics, maybe it's clearer when you read and re-read them like 10 times each month waiting for the next issue to come out when you're a teenager 

[Rasix]

Myself in 2007:

I'd be amazed if Rorschach comes off as anything other than some angry ass-kicker. Hollywood is good at certain things; introspection is not one of them

(breaks arm patting self on back)

Did you even see the movie or is this like your Harry Potter crusade?  I should really find the Book 7 HP "debate", it feels like you're posting from a template.

I thought they did a pretty decent job with Rorschach. The guy playing him was a dead ringer also.  Could have used some more time with the shrink, although I'm sure that was left on the cutting room floor.

People that thought they were super humans weren't paying attention. At best throughout the entire thing they just seemed like people that knew how to fight.  Well, except for Ozy's super jump and disproportionate strength.  That was a bit over the top.

edit: I would like to see a version of this film with a redone soundtrack. That was a bit of experimentation that did not work well in practice. 

edit numero dos: Informal WoW guildie poll of 1 thought that they were super human.   Guy also wanted more action, I think he was expecting 300.

[gryeyes]

People that thought they were super heroes weren't paying attention. At best throughout the entire thing they just seemed like people that knew how to fight.  Well, except for Ozy's super jump and disproportionate strength.  That was a bit over the top.

Punching through walls,receiving absolute insane amounts of damage and being barely wounded,lifting a 200lbs man with one arm flinging him about like a doll,ability to leap dozens of feet,movements in bullet time all give the impression of superhuman ability. They also don't include all the aspects that help define that the Watchmen are just humans. Ozy being a world class gymnast and going about the world learning various esoteric skills,Silk specter being forced to train daily as a child,Rorschach's capture scene. Ozy being uncertain if he could catch a bullet. The clear distinction that Dr. Manhattan is the sole superhuman in the world.

If i did not already know i would also assume they are more than human there is absolutely no indication in the movie that they are not. If anything the movie intentionally removes the scenes that help explain they are mere humans.

[Rasix]

True enough. I suppose if you go in knowing they're just human, that's all you see.  I did mention the parts with Ozy were a tad ridiculous, but wasn't the wall punch with the Comedian pulled straight from the comic?

They did a better job of showing mortality and weakness with the Minutemen.

[gryeyes]

Most if not all the "superhuman" action sequences are in the comic. But the comic does let you know i believe even explicitly stating at one point that they are just mortals. All of those scenes are missing in the movie. I mean Ozy catches a bullet but they temper that with the knowledge that even he was uncertain if it was possible,his hands are bleeding afterward, and he is an Olympic level athlete who has traveled the world learning various ninja skills.

In the movie the he just catches it with a smirk. Its not that the action scenes couldn't be attributed to normal humans. Shit i just watched Commando and arnold is doing shit to put the watchmen to shame. Its that no indication is given that they are not superhumans so with nothing to dictate otherwise its a pretty natural assumption they aren't mere mortals.

[apocrypha]

That's a shame that the distinction wasn't made clearer in the film. I mean, it's pretty much a defining theme of the comics - the massive contrast between Osterman and the normal costumed heroes, right from the start.

I think it's an especially gross omission when, as you point out gryeyes with your Commando comparison, our media landscape is littered with merely human superheroes. Batman springs to mind. I always felt that one of the most powerful messages of Watchmen was that a true superhuman would have a profound effect of the world, not just materially but in terms of psyche too. That's what the whole "The superman exists & he's American" (or "God exists and... etc", stronly alluding to the religious shock that the existence of someone like Osterman would have) line was about.

Anyway, this thread's about the film not the comics isn't it, I'll piss off out of it for now 

[NowhereMan]

I've got a strong hope that there's footage on the cutting room floor that makes it into the extended edition that makes that contrast clearer. I'll agree that I saw this with two guys who hadn't read the comic and I actually had to do some work to convince them that the Watchmen weren't superhumans.