SWTOR

[Malakili]

So all classes are Human/ One race?  I understand why, but figured it was going to be at least 3 races for one class.

SWTOR - the only game where you have to be human to be different. 

I'm not sure if it works exactly like that, but it does seem like certain races can only choose certain classes.  This actually isn't different from WoW in principle (don't see any gnome priests, for example).  However, I think people expect it to be more limited in SWTOR than in WoW, but I personally haven't been keeping up closely enough to know exactly how its going to work.  It does of course stand to reason that VO would effect this.  Of course, everyone will probably just have the same voice anyway, and if you just let everyone speak common or standard, or whatever they call it in starwars, it shouldn't really matter now that I think about it.

[Merusk]

From the way people are grousing about it, it certainly seems that way.  If it's simply "Twi'leks can't be Infiltrators and Sith can't be Jedi Counselors" I fail to see the nerdrage.

The reason it would matter for VOs is they apparently they want each race to have a unique voice, rather than going with "pick one of 4 voices" like other Bioware games.  Getting 6-8 VAs to do voices for all 8 class story lines would be prohibitively expensive in terms of money and storage space for the audio files. 

[caladein]

The annoyance for me comes from: as a Sith Inquisitor my character creation options will be centered on "Hair or Horns?".

[Koyasha]

From the way people are grousing about it, it certainly seems that way.  If it's simply "Twi'leks can't be Infiltrators and Sith can't be Jedi Counselors" I fail to see the nerdrage.

I think the setting would be part of this.  Consider that in Star Wars it's pretty well established that the setting is more...logical, you might say, as to who can be what - anyone can be anything if that's what they do.  It's well known that Jedi and Sith can be of any species in the galaxy, for instance.  Our AD&D instincts where classes are limited by your race don't kick in automatically because it's a different setting, so if we hadn't taken the time to think about the limitations, we kind of expected there to be none.

[Evil Elvis]

I haven't been paying attention.  Are there class trees, à la WoW?  Can I spec high-ground?

[Stabs]

There's a sci fi trope/convenient short-cut that goes right back to the pulp writers of the '20s that aliens are basically humans with minor cosmetic adjustments. Edgar Rice Burroughs and the others were basically writing hero goes to jungle, rescues princess from spear-chucking savages, fiction using Mars as a more exotic locale than the standard Africa.

This has persisted in sci fi and to some extent become more prevalent as the genre has migrated to more visual media than books. Occasional attempts to buck this trope are usually simply Lovecraftian. There's very little science fiction that presents a biodiversity like that of the Amazon Basin.

In Star Wars aliens are all people with face paint or muppets. (At least until Jar Jar Binks although he's arguably a cgi muppet).

Bioware presumably felt their story would lack gravitas if they allowed player character muppets. "Hi I'm Darth Proboscis, dark lord of the Sith and furry blue elephant-person". You can see why.

So everyone is playing characters which follow the humans with face paint trope. That's why people are perhaps a bit annoyed, feel a bit constrained. It's the price of playing in the theme park.

[Ratman_tf]

In Star Wars aliens are all people with face paint or muppets. (At least until Jar Jar Binks although he's arguably a cgi muppet).

What's the alternative? Every Single Alien in fiction is, whether we like it or not, constrained by human imagination and the restrictions of the medium.

Not to mention we're talking about Star Wars here. Hard Sci-Fi it ain't.

[Stabs]

There are a number of alternatives, for example Cherryh's catechism approach:

"She has described the process she uses to create alien societies for her fiction as being akin to asking a series of questions, and letting the answers to these questions dictate various parameters of the alien culture. In her view, "culture is how biology responds to its environment  and makes its living conditions better." Some of the issues she considers critical to consider in detailing an intelligent alien race include:[6]

    * The physical environment in which the species lives
    * The location and nature of the race's dwellings, including the spatial relationships between those dwellings
    * The species' diet, method(s) of obtaining and consuming food, and cultural practices regarding the preparation of meals and eating (if any)
    * Processes which the aliens use to share knowledge
    * Customs and ideas regarding death, dying, the treatment of the race's dead, and the afterlife (if any)
    * Metaphysical issues related to self-definition and the aliens' concept of the universe they inhabit"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._J._Cherryh#World_building

I'm not advocating that for Star Wars which deliberately used simplistic aliens because it was largely aimed at children. I'm simply pointing out that attempting to pin a mature and sophisticated virtual world on an IP that started out as a children's film has limitations.

[Rendakor]

Stabs, the big complaint about SWTOR isn't that races in SW are generic; it's that it looks like each class can only be Human/One Specific Alien.

[Lantyssa]

The reason it would matter for VOs is they apparently they want each race to have a unique voice, rather than going with "pick one of 4 voices" like other Bioware games.  Getting 6-8 VAs to do voices for all 8 class story lines would be prohibitively expensive in terms of money and storage space for the audio files. 

It's silly though.  If that's how they want it, give each class that voice actor and let us pick the species.  If they speak Basic, there is no reason they can't use the same voice.  The old KotOR games did it, with Twi'leks that spoke Basic instead of Ryl.  It'd also be nice if we had the option to be an alien that prefers to not speak Basic.  It's Star Wars.  Give the players the option in a friggin' Role-Playing Game.

[SnakeCharmer]

Give the players the option in a friggin' Role-Playing Game.

Bioware knows how you want to roleplay better than you do.

[Velorath]

The reason it would matter for VOs is they apparently they want each race to have a unique voice, rather than going with "pick one of 4 voices" like other Bioware games.  Getting 6-8 VAs to do voices for all 8 class story lines would be prohibitively expensive in terms of money and storage space for the audio files. 

It's silly though.  If that's how they want it, give each class that voice actor and let us pick the species.  If they speak Basic, there is no reason they can't use the same voice.  The old KotOR games did it, with Twi'leks that spoke Basic instead of Ryl.  It'd also be nice if we had the option to be an alien that prefers to not speak Basic.  It's Star Wars.  Give the players the option in a friggin' Role-Playing Game.

It works with some aliens better than others.  A Rodian that speaks basic probably isn't going to sound like a human.  I imagine that Wookies can't speak basic at all (although I imagine it wouldn't be too cost prohibitive to record some Wookie dialog).  I'd love to have some playable droids, but even they don't have human sounding voices when speaking basic.  They could get around that using R2-D2 style dialog, although I'm not sure I'd want to listen to that in every conversation.

I do find it kind of funny though that this is a big issue (although I completely understand why) considering the overwhelming majority of main characters in the Original Trilogy (and even the Prequels) were humans.  Chewie, the Droids, and Yoda were the only major non-humans I can think of.  The Prequels main addition in that respect was Jar Jar.  Hell, I can't even think of too many video games aside from SWG and I assume the Lego games, where your main character is anything other than human.

[Merusk]

The reason it would matter for VOs is they apparently they want each race to have a unique voice, rather than going with "pick one of 4 voices" like other Bioware games.  Getting 6-8 VAs to do voices for all 8 class story lines would be prohibitively expensive in terms of money and storage space for the audio files. 

It's silly though.  If that's how they want it, give each class that voice actor and let us pick the species.  If they speak Basic, there is no reason they can't use the same voice.  The old KotOR games did it, with Twi'leks that spoke Basic instead of Ryl.  It'd also be nice if we had the option to be an alien that prefers to not speak Basic.  It's Star Wars.  Give the players the option in a friggin' Role-Playing Game.

The problem there is still the same, though.  You have to have 3-4 choices between each race or else some simply won't get played because the only choice is nasally, piss poor or just plain doesn't appeal to the demographic. 

Really, the option for voices keeps running up against the "this was a bad decision" wall.  It wasn't a good decision to start with and they're going to put a lot of effort into something that isn't making those who are supposed to be advocates very happy.

As for limited options.. it's a CRPG game, not a world.  The Star Wars "World" was tried and failed.  Miserably. Sorry.

[Lucas]

Hey meatbags,

so, official forums are a bit on fire right now because german website Online Welten released some new info on Space combat in TOR, taken from another german magazine, PC Action (while we are waiting for the big article coming out August 17th on PC Gamer).

Here is a recap from Massively (with a link to the original article in german and a google translated version. Also a couple of VERY small screenshots):

http://www.massively.com/2010/08/08/rumor-the-old-republic-space-combat-on-rails/

Here is a better translation:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=182490

Official thread on the forums with a small clarification from Sean Dahlberg:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=182698


Hmm, "railroad" experience; well, I really didn't expect much at least at the beginning. Like I said in another post, they can always add more complex systems later. Also, ground and space being two very distinctive styles, we may not get any nerd rage such as "why should I get punished if I don't get involved in the space aspect of the game" and so on...

[SnakeCharmer]

Eh, about what I expected (KOTOR turretish), but not what I hoped for (JTLish), especially considering how little the movies and books (that I read, anyway) actually focused entirely on space combat.  It's a seasoning, but not the meat itself.  But a good bit of the nerdsperg could have been avoided several weeks ago by being a bit more forthright about it rather than grandly announcing it and then saying 'we can't talk about it yet teehee!'.  I guess what they're describing in that article is space combat...

[Koyasha]

Really, the option for voices keeps running up against the "this was a bad decision" wall.  It wasn't a good decision to start with and they're going to put a lot of effort into something that isn't making those who are supposed to be advocates very happy.

That's exactly what I meant when I initially said I thought the fully voiced thing was a bad idea, way back.  Interestingly, while I am excited and interested in this game, the main things that I have a problem with all seem to stem from the whole voicing the main character.  Pretty much everything I have heard that I do not like about SWTOR is in some way related, or at least appears to be related, from my perspective, to the decision to voice the player character.

[Lucas]

Eh, about what I expected (KOTOR turretish), but not what I hoped for (JTLish), especially considering how little the movies and books (that I read, anyway) actually focused entirely on space combat.  It's a seasoning, but not the meat itself.  But a good bit of the nerdsperg could have been avoided several weeks ago by being a bit more forthright about it rather than grandly announcing it and then saying 'we can't talk about it yet teehee!'.  I guess what they're describing in that article is space combat...

Yes, being as straightforward as possible would be ideal in this case (well, probably it's always the best scenario, but hey...:P). If they make clear that "space" for now is:

- arcade style with very small scenarios that last from 20 minutes to one hour (and it seems the upcoming PC Action article will state just that) ;
- varied but still limited kind of scenarios (see above) ;
- At release, space mission rewards will be only badges/achievements you will show on your ship and/or on your TOR Armory (or whatever) and won't influence the progression of the "ground experience" (including possible combat bonus when in groups etc.) in any way ;
- In the following months (meaning, from release and onward), they keep us updated on possibly more in-depth systems they would like to add to the space experience;

That would be good enough. At least to avoid the feeling you often have with other MMOGs, when some systems seem to be endlessy abandoned (and not only because there are more pressing matters at hand) by the developers because they were added in a rush and then they didn't know what to do with them.

[SnakeCharmer]

I thought they described it as being an 'action snack' last less than 15 minutes?

[Lucas]

I thought they described it as being an 'action snack' last less than 15 minutes?

Yeah, something like that judging from the translation; different environments too, lasting 15-30 minutes.

[UnSub]

Give the players the option in a friggin' Role-Playing Game.

Bioware knows how you want to roleplay better than you do.

How much RP can you really do in other BioWare titles? Your options are usually "Jerk", "Neutral", "Boy Scout" and occasionally "Super Boy Scout" or "Ultra-Jerk".

BioWare railroads all their games - it's how their RP-style works. There is some degree of choice, but often the illusion of choice is actually much greater than in-game impact.

[SnakeCharmer]

How much RP can you really do in other BioWare titles? Your options are usually "Jerk", "Neutral", "Boy Scout" and occasionally "Super Boy Scout" or "Ultra-Jerk".

BioWare railroads all their games - it's how their RP-style works. There is some degree of choice, but often the illusion of choice is actually much greater than in-game impact.

Bioware Austin

All kidding aside though, that's kinda the point (RP) of an MMO (for some people).  Even if you don't engage in RP in it's most strict sense, I would hazard a guess that most people that play MMOs want to do so with their own personality being the driving force.  Maybe it's the fact that the voice over seems to put up a wall between me and my character; that it's not "me" but some idealized Bioware version of it.  That's got to sound really freaking stupid, because in a few other MMOs you're basically given two strict choices of how to respond/complete a mission or quest (kill the puppies and save the kittens or save the puppies and kill the kittens) and it didn't bother me.  Without the VO for my character, I'm left to my own internal dialogue as to the reasoning of my decision.  With the VO, I'm hearing Bioware's reasoning for it.  There's a disconnect that I can't work my head around.

[Rendakor]

I'm sure this point has been made already, but if the VOs are a huge turnoff, play the game with the sound off. Or even just the voices off, as I presume that will be an option. I know I generally game with other music playing in the background, and don't plan to change that habit just because they gave my character a voice.

[Cadaverine]

I'm sure this point has been made already, but if the VOs are a huge turnoff, play the game with the sound off. Or even just the voices off, as I presume that will be an option. I know I generally game with other music playing in the background, and don't plan to change that habit just because they gave my character a voice.

Which is probably what most people will be doing after the first week or so, anyway.  Which makes wasting all the money on the VO that much stupider.

[rk47]

Narration for quest is not a bad thing. But agreed on character voice over, it really shows Bioware being new at this MMO stuff. I can't wait for their romance NPC quest for all the bio forum fanfic writers to jizz on. It will be epic.

[Bunk]

Everyone is going to have their own opinion on the voice over thing. Personally, my interest in the game went up significantly when I heard about it.

For me, I look at it like this: Unless a game is going to let me run my character anyway I see fit, saying anything I want - which is not going to happen - then I don't approach it like "this character is me". Instead, I see the PC as the main character in a story, and I am acting as their guide or compass.

With say Dragon Age, I found myself more heavily invested in what was happening with my party members than I was with my main character, because in conversations my character just stood there looking mildy retarded. In Mass Effect however, Sheppard was clearly the main character, and the one that I focused on. It was much easier to become invested in the character in ME.

I can see how it might be easier to pretend that your avatar "is you" when you are having to do your own internal dialog, but I honestly got more enjoyment out of the cinematic feel to having a fully voiced (and acted) main character.

All that being said, I will be mildy annoyed if I can't make a Twi'lek Sith.

[Lucas]

The PC Gamer article on Space has already been scanned (start from page 52 but they're not scanned in order):

http://s1018.photobucket.com/albums/af305/Imperialagent0110/SWTOR/

It's a mix of info (not really much) dropped by Lucasarts and speculation on PC Gamer's part; former is still VERY vague, while the latter being boxes guessing what feature will be at launch and implemented later, ships assigned to the classes beside the confirmed ones and the various kinds of scenarios we can expect.

- A little more details on the "railroad experience", trying to capture the feelings of the movies, feeling "heroic" etc. etc. ;

-  The Space area of the game is being developed over at Bioware Edmonton ;

- We also get the two "Advanced Specializations" for the Jedi Knight: Guardian and Sentinel (pretty much expected).


There you have it.

[Koyasha]

All that being said, I will be mildy annoyed if I can't make a Twi'lek Sith.

I think this is pretty much my feelings on the matter, overall.

[Rendakor]

Everyone is going to have their own opinion on the voice over thing. Personally, my interest in the game went up significantly when I heard about it.

For me, I look at it like this: Unless a game is going to let me run my character anyway I see fit, saying anything I want - which is not going to happen - then I don't approach it like "this character is me". Instead, I see the PC as the main character in a story, and I am acting as their guide or compass.

With say Dragon Age, I found myself more heavily invested in what was happening with my party members than I was with my main character, because in conversations my character just stood there looking mildy retarded. In Mass Effect however, Sheppard was clearly the main character, and the one that I focused on. It was much easier to become invested in the character in ME.

I can see how it might be easier to pretend that your avatar "is you" when you are having to do your own internal dialog, but I honestly got more enjoyment out of the cinematic feel to having a fully voiced (and acted) main character.

All that being said, I will be mildy annoyed if I can't make a Twi'lek Sith.

I take it the opposite way; I couldn't get into ME because I didn't feel like I was playing myself. DA (and Kotor) was much more compelling to me because I could get behind what my character was doing. But again, sound off with music playing in the background.

[Malakili]

For me, I look at it like this: Unless a game is going to let me run my character anyway I see fit, saying anything I want - which is not going to happen - then I don't approach it like "this character is me". Instead, I see the PC as the main character in a story, and I am acting as their guide or compass.

I think there is a 3rd option, which is basically that you are acting out a character that has had its general moviations, attributes, etc, set by a third party source.  Its not me, and I'm not a compass or guide, but rather I'm an actor playing a role in the vein of something like Best in Show (in which a sort of basic plot was written, but once whatever is supposed to happen in a scene is decided, the actors improv the actual scene). (Role Playing! OMG!) 

All of this is to say that voice over makes very little difference to me most of the time, and in some cases makes things feel like I being led by the nose, even when I have options.

[Rendakor]

Malakili, you quoted me but not what I said; that was Bunk.

However, I don't mind your 3rd option in non-RPGs; even in JRPGs where you're playing as Cloud or whatever it doesn't really bother me. But in most western RPGs (games by Bioware and Bethesda in particular) you're not playing as Cloud. You're playing as a hero of your own creation, typically with a large level of free choice.

[Sjofn]

I dunno about that being true for Bioware games. It's not universal for their games, anyway.


EDIT: Of course, I say this because I agree with you on the subject of Mass Effect (it's also why I never even tried Planescape: Torment  ). It's also why I'm a little nose wrinkly over full voice in Dragon Age 2.

[Ingmar]

Malakili, you quoted me but not what I said; that was Bunk.

However, I don't mind your 3rd option in non-RPGs; even in JRPGs where you're playing as Cloud or whatever it doesn't really bother me. But in most western RPGs (games by Bioware and Bethesda in particular) you're not playing as Cloud. You're playing as a hero of your own creation, typically with a large level of free choice.

Hmm. While Bioware games do typically give you a lot of latitude in terms of *designing* your character - race, class, powers you pick, appearance, etc., they typically don't give you a lot of choice in terms of your background or your basic role in the story. You do get choices that affect the story, sometimes drastically, sometimes not, which obviously doesn't happen in JRPGs, but Bioware games and their ilk are typically far from the sandboxy experience it seems like you're describing to me - Bethesda is a better call probably, if only because the actual plot of their games is so much less emphasized.

Plus Planescape: Torment (yes I know not Bioware) is basically the best game ever and it totally used the Shepherd model.

[Count Nerfedalot]

Really, the option for voices keeps running up against the "this was a bad decision" wall.  It wasn't a good decision to start with and they're going to put a lot of effort into something that isn't making those who are supposed to be advocates very happy.

That's exactly what I meant when I initially said I thought the fully voiced thing was a bad idea, way back.  Interestingly, while I am excited and interested in this game, the main things that I have a problem with all seem to stem from the whole voicing the main character.  Pretty much everything I have heard that I do not like about SWTOR is in some way related, or at least appears to be related, from my perspective, to the decision to voice the player character.

Voice-overs are a waste of time, money and effort and are at best a break-even on cost vs value added.  So why are they running with it?  Marketing.

Strangely enough, this is pretty much mandatory for any new Star Wars production, ever since the first sequel (EP V).  Marketing/licensing comes up with a new angle to hype and it ends up driving the entire production.  In Episode V, it was action figures.  In Episode VI it was targeting the kiddie market with cute cuddly Ewoks (PLUS action figures).  In Episode I it was creating "thrilling movie experiences" like the submarine ride that could be re-created in theme-park rides (PLUS target kids with the child character centerpiece and silly Jar-jar PLUS action figures).  I stopped paying attention to the movies after that, although I think selling light sabre toys played heavily in defining the production of Ep II (PLUS theme-park rides and kids and action figures). 

In SWG Raph snookered them by adopting their own marketing buzzwords and selling whoever came up with the "You're in our world now!" theme on the idea of implementing a worldy SW MMO. 

I haven't seen enough of the cartoon series to have a clue what marketing angle it was built on, but I bet it tied in very closely to something associated with cartoon merchandising.

In SWTOR, the buzzword of the day was voiceovers.  If they'd been finalizing the primary design bullet points last winter it would have been 3D.

[DraconianOne]

Strangely enough, this is pretty much mandatory for any new Star Wars production, ever since the first sequel (EP V) film. 

Nothing strange about it - it's a business.

[Velorath]

Voice-overs are a waste of time, money and effort and are at best a break-even on cost vs value added.  So why are they running with it?  Marketing.

Or because Bioware has always made use of a lot of voice-overs in their games, and that's only increased as the tech has advanced to allow them to do fully voiced games like Mass Effect.  They're playing to what they perceive as one of their strengths.  It has nothing to do with the Star Wars license.  If they had done a Mass Effect MMO instead, they would have done the same thing.

Edit:  Also, why do you mention theme park rides a couple times?  Did they make some other than Star Tours at Disneyland?  I can't imagine any licensing income from Star Wars branded rides would be substantial enough to even be a consideration when writing the movies.