SWTOR

[Falconeer]

Seriously, more AoC than Planetside.

I know the word out there is that Age of Conan sucks big time, but I'll be damned if melee combat isn't the best in any MMO out there. One could argue that the combo system is not the best solution, but what's keeping everyone from fucking copying (be inspired?) and enhancing AoC melee combat? Which, by the way, is inspired by Golden Axe (et al.), a glorious 1989 game.

What's so bad in trying to put "action" back in MMOs, especially in this one, and especially after the previous Massive Star Wars fail? Nothing more frustrating than having a lightsaber, look at it "autoattack" enemies, and being unable to sheathe, unsheathe and swing it in the air just to hear the swoosh.

[Stabs]

The problem with AoC's combat system is using it against moving targets.

Suppose your combo involves picking your move, then pressing Up, Right, Lower Left, Lower Left, Left. It hits 5 times but all the bonus damage is on the last hit.

So a newbie runs up to someone and starts pressing buttons. The opponent steps out of range, circle strafes, and so on. You have to control your character to maintain base to base contact while pressing the correct sequence of buttons. That's really hard to do with mouse and keyboard. You might for instance use your mouse for adjusting facing while using WASD to move and still have to hit those buttons without taking your eyes off your rather tricky opponent to look at your keys.

This is pretty hardcore.

It's part of the reason why AoC vets really love their game - they can do something cool that most other people can't.

But if you resurrected this system for another game, you'd have the same problem with people leaving because their 5th button press which should do the big hit keeps getting out of range errors because they can't press the sequence while keeping close to an evading player.

[Zzulo]

I hated AoC melee system in PvP. It was good in PvE, though. Great even. But yeah in PvP as a barbarian (post-multiple nerfs) it was just  a god damn travesty to walk up to someone, initiate your combo (which takes forever so they just move away) and then swing wildly in the air dealing pretty much no damage or missing entirely. The best part is that even if you DO hit them, they will still have moved away from you and can just choose to leave you behind as you'll be trying to fruitlessly get back to them over the distance they covered while you were rooted in place while the animations played.

It just was not fun. Playing as an invincible healer or a caster was actually fun though, since it used a much more consistent system with less horrible shit involved. Casters in AoC, when I played, were incredibly overpowered though. I could stand next to a ToS and hit him forever without a chance of killing him while he killed me with automatic pulsating AoE's.




 I don't know how it is today.

[Ollie]

To be fair to AoC, the system hasn't been as horrid as Stabs describes for ages. Funcom scrapped the longest (five-step) combos and made the damage distribution less end-weighted. It's still the same Simon says retardation as it was at launch, though, just a smidgen less so.

How any of this relates to SWTOR, I have no idea.

[UnSub]

It was just so we could hit page 100 talking about ...

... I'm still not sure either.

My point was that lightsabers are meant to be live blades at every point, but for that 'cinematic' feel it looks like SWOR combat is going to be closer to the traditional model of stand and attack and only hit what's in front of you. It probably will be more flexible by launch, but given that Jedi have to be viable versus the ranged classes, melee is going to dependent on hitting what they swing at, which relies on calculated hit rolls over positioning and the realities of distance.

[Malakili]

It was just so we could hit page 100 talking about ...

... I'm still not sure either.

My point was that lightsabers are meant to be live blades at every point, but for that 'cinematic' feel it looks like SWOR combat is going to be closer to the traditional model of stand and attack and only hit what's in front of you. It probably will be more flexible by launch, but given that Jedi have to be viable versus the ranged classes, melee is going to dependent on hitting what they swing at, which relies on calculated hit rolls over positioning and the realities of distance.

An example of good lightsaber play, in my opinion, was Jedi Outcast, and Jedi Academy.  Those were effectively first person shooter mechanics though.  If someone makes a starwars MMOFPS, maybe we'll see what you are talking about...but I doubt it.

[tmp]

To be fair to AoC, the system hasn't been as horrid as Stabs describes for ages. Funcom scrapped the longest (five-step) combos and made the damage distribution less end-weighted. It's still the same Simon says retardation as it was at launch, though, just a smidgen less so.

How any of this relates to SWTOR, I have no idea.

I wonder if it worked better if they borrowed the mechanics from the Witcher and had the bonus damage tied just to hitting "attack moar" button close to defined intervals. Would streamline the controls and put more focus on being within attack range during these key moments (or alternatively, on not being there)

relation to SWTOR: dunno, could apply to saber combat maybe.

[Goreschach]

To be fair to AoC, the system hasn't been as horrid as Stabs describes for ages. Funcom scrapped the longest (five-step) combos and made the damage distribution less end-weighted. It's still the same Simon says retardation as it was at launch, though, just a smidgen less so.

How any of this relates to SWTOR, I have no idea.

I wonder if it worked better if they borrowed the mechanics from the Witcher and had the bonus damage tied just to hitting "attack moar" button close to defined intervals. Would streamline the controls and put more focus on being within attack range during these key moments (or alternatively, on not being there)

relation to SWTOR: dunno, could apply to saber combat maybe.

Yeah, because Witcher's combat system was totally awesome and not, you know, universally recognized as one of the most boring and stupid combat systems in an rpg in years.

[PalmTrees]

Yeah Witcher combat was kinda boring. If styles had meant more and switching between them in combat was necessary to adapt to your opponents  it might've been more fun.

[Bunk]

Yeah Witcher combat was kinda boring. If styles had meant more and switching between them in combat was necessary to adapt to your opponents  it might've been more fun.

No, no it wouldn't have been. Sorry. The mechanic itself was bad - anything that makes you more worried about watching when the little cursor is going to flash distracts you from watching the fight itself - which is bad.

And again, anything like that relies on reliable ping times and lack of lag. Or puting the timing check in the client. I'm sure that wouldn't lead to any issues.

[Falconeer]

As someone pointed out, Age of Conan combos are now all about 2 steps long, with 3 being the longest and being seldom used in PvP exactly for the reasons mentioned.

Then, ok scrap AoC combos. I am talking about the "white hits" part. What's wrong with scrapping autoattack in MMORPGs and putting back the simple mechanic of having to press a button every time you want to swing your weapon?

[Ingmar]

As someone pointed out, Age of Conan combos are now all about 2 steps long, with 3 being the longest and being seldom used in PvP exactly for the reasons mentioned.

Then, ok scrap AoC combos. I am talking about the "white hits" part. What's wrong with scrapping autoattack in MMORPGs and putting back the simple mechanic of having to press a button every time you want to swing your weapon?

Because sometimes you have to get up to answer the door. Would suck if my guy couldn't autoattack an NPC in the meantime when that happens!

Seriously though, there are a lot of people who don't want to turn their rpg combat into action-game combat. A lot.

[Cyrrex]

As someone pointed out, Age of Conan combos are now all about 2 steps long, with 3 being the longest and being seldom used in PvP exactly for the reasons mentioned.

Then, ok scrap AoC combos. I am talking about the "white hits" part. What's wrong with scrapping autoattack in MMORPGs and putting back the simple mechanic of having to press a button every time you want to swing your weapon?

Because sometimes you have to get up to answer the door. Would suck if my guy couldn't autoattack an NPC in the meantime when that happens!

Seriously though, there are a lot of people who don't want to turn their rpg combat into action-game combat. A lot.

Not that I don't agree with you, but then why are we always complaining about the current combat paradigm?  We don't even know what we want, that's the problem.

[tmp]

Yeah, because Witcher's combat system was totally awesome and not, you know, universally recognized as one of the most boring and stupid combat systems in an rpg in years.

Yeah, because Witcher's combat system had the NPCs circle-strafe you and do all kind of shit to avoid getting hit, rather than the timed key presses being the only component that mattered.

Oh, wait.

Srsly, it's no so complicated it'd require pie chart, is it? Intricate movement + intricate combat (AoC) = too much to handle. No movement + simple combat (Witcher) = boring. But perhaps then in the middle (intricate movement + simple combat) is something that people might find neither too much nor too boring. Perish the thought.

edit:

No, no it wouldn't have been. Sorry. The mechanic itself was bad - anything that makes you more worried about watching when the little cursor is going to flash distracts you from watching the fight itself - which is bad.

Wouldn't that be UI issue, rather than the mechanics? After all the player getting obsessed with the little flashing cursor rather than the fight is pretty much result of the cue being put on the cursor in the first place.

[LK]

I think FFXIV is experimenting with positioning affecting combat, so maybe a little movement there.

[Sheepherder]

But perhaps then in the middle (intricate movement + simple combat) is something that people might find neither too much nor too boring. Perish the thought.

Agreed.  WoW pvp is pretty cool.

[eldaec]

[eldaec]

I can the understand the 'wishing we had something different'. Mass Effect combat at least would be pretty cool.

But

1) That is not what this product is.
2) There is plenty more than can be done with the select target, select action model that typical bioware rpgs use.

In particular much greater impact on and from positional, facing, and environmental conditions, conditional abilities, countermoves, etc etc.

[Ratman_tf]

I can the understand the 'wishing we had something different'. Mass Effect combat at least would be pretty cool.

But

1) That is not what this product is.
2) There is plenty more than can be done with the select target, select action model that typical bioware rpgs use.

In particular much greater impact on and from positional, facing, and environmental conditions, conditional abilities, countermoves, etc etc.

I'm not pulling your chain either. I agree. I'd rather see more RPGish combat elements than just making a MMORPG with twitch action and thinking that will accomplish anything besides piss off a huge chunk of the players.

[UnSub]

No, no it wouldn't have been. Sorry. The mechanic itself was bad - anything that makes you more worried about watching when the little cursor is going to flash distracts you from watching the fight itself - which is bad.

If you play it in hard, the cursor doesn't flash and you have to actually watch the screen to work out when to hit the next attack. Protip: Don't play easy mode, then complain it is boring.

However, all this just throws back things into two camps: the "I want turn-based RPG combat because my meat sausages only let me mash the keyboard if I hurry" and the "FIREFIREFIREIMONSPEEEEEEEEEEEDANDITSONLY5SLEEPSTOXMAS" group. You can't have a combat system that suits both unless you build two different systems that don't completely overlap.

Autoattack is a pox on MMOs, in my opinon, but a lot of people seem to like it because it means they don't have to watch the character as closely.

[tmp]

Agreed.  WoW pvp is pretty cool.

It'd be if it didn't make people watch just their skill cooldowns on the toolbar instead of the action

[Nija]

I think for the best melee experience you need a little sticky melee crossed with Arkham Asylum melee.

[Ingmar]

As someone pointed out, Age of Conan combos are now all about 2 steps long, with 3 being the longest and being seldom used in PvP exactly for the reasons mentioned.

Then, ok scrap AoC combos. I am talking about the "white hits" part. What's wrong with scrapping autoattack in MMORPGs and putting back the simple mechanic of having to press a button every time you want to swing your weapon?

Because sometimes you have to get up to answer the door. Would suck if my guy couldn't autoattack an NPC in the meantime when that happens!

Seriously though, there are a lot of people who don't want to turn their rpg combat into action-game combat. A lot.

Not that I don't agree with you, but then why are we always complaining about the current combat paradigm?  We don't even know what we want, that's the problem.

Well I'm not really complaining about it. So part of it is I think we need to stop mistaking 'us' for a group that all have any kind of unified opinion or even generally dislike MMO combat as it stands.

[Cyrrex]

As someone pointed out, Age of Conan combos are now all about 2 steps long, with 3 being the longest and being seldom used in PvP exactly for the reasons mentioned.

Then, ok scrap AoC combos. I am talking about the "white hits" part. What's wrong with scrapping autoattack in MMORPGs and putting back the simple mechanic of having to press a button every time you want to swing your weapon?

Because sometimes you have to get up to answer the door. Would suck if my guy couldn't autoattack an NPC in the meantime when that happens!

Seriously though, there are a lot of people who don't want to turn their rpg combat into action-game combat. A lot.

Not that I don't agree with you, but then why are we always complaining about the current combat paradigm?  We don't even know what we want, that's the problem.

Well I'm not really complaining about it. So part of it is I think we need to stop mistaking 'us' for a group that all have any kind of unified opinion or even generally dislike MMO combat as it stands.

I was talking about the general "we", but anway, yeah.  It's kind of impossible when we want some sort of exciting, cinematic, dymanic and action oriented combat...and yet, we need auto-attack available for whenever the microwave dings and our hot pockets are ready.  Or better yet, half the crowd complains about their lack of twitch abilities and require us to slow everything down.  "We" contradict our selves and can't define what we want.  You can't get people in this thread ot even remotely agree on what good combat is.  So, the big developers trying to cater to the masses, find the lowest common denominator and within those tight confines try to make something sort of interesting.  That's what big corporations do.

I know!  Make two SWTORs.  One with traditional MMO point and click with cooldowns, and another using Jedi Outcast style combat (you can still "level" quite easily with FPS combat).  Yes, I know it would take two completely different engines and rules.  It would still sell like fucking hotcakes.

[Sky]

another using Jedi Outcast style combat

So do you favor client-side calculations or latency? In a pvp setting, which client calculation would be authoritative?

[Cyrrex]

another using Jedi Outcast style combat

So do you favor client-side calculations or latency? In a pvp setting, which client calculation would be authoritative?

Whichever one better lets me melt face, obviously.

Or answer B, which is "use whatever JO already uses, because that works fine"

Or answer C, which is where I state that this doesn't really look like a PvP game anwway (and even so, the majority don't care about it), so who cares?

[Ollie]

Amidst all this fun fantasizing about MMOG combat, it might be sobering to watch how the combat in SWTOR will most likely turn out. It's been a few months already, but Bioware did show us a brief glimpse of PvP in all its skillbar goodness in one of their previous developer diaries, namely the Designing the Dark Side trailer. Same clip on YouTube here.

Totally non-NDA breaking. Watch from 3:50 on. It's... well, pretty much exactly what one would expect. 

[Slayerik]

Whoa boy, that looks exciting!  And nothing like WoW!

[SnakeCharmer]

But...but...you use specials to build UP your action mana rage force pool to unlock other abilities!  So the more you spam the more buttons you get to press! 

New!
Unique!
Exciting!
Innovative!

 

[HaemishM]

Amidst all this fun fantasizing about MMOG combat, it might be sobering to watch how the combat in SWTOR will most likely turn out. It's been a few months already, but Bioware did show us a brief glimpse of PvP in all its skillbar goodness in one of their previous developer diaries, namely the Designing the Dark Side trailer. Same clip on YouTube here.

Could that combat look any less interesting?

I also love how they totally take the 3 Sith characters shown and extrapolate clothing choices based on those 3 characters and yet still manage to interpret it WRONG. Vader didn't choose armor, he got cut to bits and was forced into it. I didn't see Darth Maul running around in fucking armor.

[Rasix]

Amidst all this fun fantasizing about MMOG combat, it might be sobering to watch how the combat in SWTOR will most likely turn out. It's been a few months already, but Bioware did show us a brief glimpse of PvP in all its skillbar goodness in one of their previous developer diaries, namely the Designing the Dark Side trailer. Same clip on YouTube here.

Could that combat look any less interesting?

I also love how they totally take the 3 Sith characters shown and extrapolate clothing choices based on those 3 characters and yet still manage to interpret it WRONG. 

Can't have iconic Sith giant shoulder armor otherwise.  Tier 8 will have miniature star destroyers jutting in all directions.

[Malakili]

Amidst all this fun fantasizing about MMOG combat, it might be sobering to watch how the combat in SWTOR will most likely turn out. It's been a few months already, but Bioware did show us a brief glimpse of PvP in all its skillbar goodness in one of their previous developer diaries, namely the Designing the Dark Side trailer. Same clip on YouTube here.

Could that combat look any less interesting?

I also love how they totally take the 3 Sith characters shown and extrapolate clothing choices based on those 3 characters and yet still manage to interpret it WRONG. 

Can't have iconic Sith giant shoulder armor otherwise.  Tier 8 will have miniature star destroyers jutting in all directions.

As long as tier 9 has death star shoulders with functioning super lasers, I'm in.

[palmer_eldritch]

The video gives the impression that Sith warrior and inquisitor could just as easily be called death knight and warlock, or just evil tank and evil wizard. I liked the crazy armour and robe designs though.

[Cyrrex]

Amidst all this fun fantasizing about MMOG combat, it might be sobering to watch how the combat in SWTOR will most likely turn out. It's been a few months already, but Bioware did show us a brief glimpse of PvP in all its skillbar goodness in one of their previous developer diaries, namely the Designing the Dark Side trailer. Same clip on YouTube here.

Could that combat look any less interesting?

I also love how they totally take the 3 Sith characters shown and extrapolate clothing choices based on those 3 characters and yet still manage to interpret it WRONG. Vader didn't choose armor, he got cut to bits and was forced into it. I didn't see Darth Maul running around in fucking armor.

To be fair, Bioware (or people who work for them) has essentially invented the lore for everything happening hundreds and thousands of years before Yavin...their Sith were very much armor doting persons.  They guy in the video just made a dumb Vader analogy that he shouldn't have.

[Ollie]

There is that. Not to mention that it wouldn't be the first time for SW lore to get mangled to allow for varied and distinctive classes.

As to the ho-hum combat, they're probably playing an early in-house alpha, so perhaps Bioware deserves a little slack. Clearly what's on display is a long way from release-worthy. Still, it's pretty easy to see the bones and the framework of the system, and kind of imagine the whole thing as it will stand at launch. "Conventional" might not be the right word, but it's the first one that comes to mind.

I hope Bioware doesn't gloss over the part in the Blizzard playbook where it says, "You don't have to innovate all the time, or even most of the time, but when you go for the conventional, remember to polish the heck out of it."