What went wrong.

[BitWarrior]

Ugh...I was looking forward to a statement showing vision, but this...this is just sad. Plain, really, can summarize what he's said. Adding more and more items isn't going to make the game any more "fun" - they need to add unique. compelling mechanics to draw you there.

If you take a look at Blizzard's development, they didn't just copy/paste Molten Core and plop it into the expansion. They kept taking what they had learnt, and expanding what was possible for a raid to see in an encounter. Wildly scripted events like the Kael'thas fight, the easy and very progressive Karazhan experience, the unique mechanic of waves of enemies approaching in Mount Hyjal, they created the dual raid zone system so dungeons wouldn't have to be as absolutely massive (Although BT was pretty large), even new mechanics like alternative tanking strategies for those 4 doods just before Gruul...Gruul himself was terribly unique and a great experience. A big huge questline involving the big promoted boss, Illidan previously, and now the Witch King. Now that WotLK is released, they've introduced even more unique mechanics. I could go on - the bombing runs, the entire Sunwell release experience, the revised dungeon rep system, rewarding quests for raiding, reducing the entry requirement for the end-game, item tokens, etc.

However, WAR's RvR remains plain and stale. "Here's a big empty field - go fight." Whoodie-doo. No mechanics, no events, not even public quests within RvR zones which could lead to neato things (like summonable NPCs). Nothing. Just a big, simple, empty field with nothing to do. There's nothing to draw you there if there isn't a fight, so the only chance you have of getting a fight is really if you stumble upon someone. There is no compelling reason to otherwise be in the zone, especially if you are currently controlling the keeps.

So great, they're adding tons of rewards and more bars for being in the big, empty zone. However, those are superficial reasons for being within a zone - there are no "natural" reasons for roaming around. Imagine if GTA's cities were completely empty. Just buildings you couldn't run into. No cops, no pedestrians, no nothing. Just a big empty city, and all you had were those missions you went back and fourth between. How entertained would you be? Would you stick around? You might brute force your way through the campaign for the sheer sake of doing it, but it doesn't contain any "stickiness".

Anyhow, I'm entirely disappointed. I'm hoping one day Mythic will get a Vision (tm).

[Bismallah]

Just curious, but has anyone here made it into Wintergrasp yet and how does it compare to open RvR like (fun)DAOC/(shit)WAR?

[Lakov_Sanite]

Just curious, but has anyone here made it into Wintergrasp yet and how does it compare to open RvR like (fun)DAOC/(shit)WAR?

More fun than most pvp experiences I've had in the past.

[Arthur_Parker]

I'm starting to feel sorry for him, he's either refusing to cut the grind because he knows the game engine can't cope with too many players in one tier, or he really doesn't have a clue what was attracting people to WAR in the first place.

I really think he's going to flip out on someone on vn boards and he'll end up being dragged away from the k/b.

[khaine]

I'm starting to feel sorry for him, he's either refusing to cut the grind because he knows the game engine can't cope with too many players in one tier, or he really doesn't have a clue what was attracting people to WAR in the first place.

I really think he's going to flip out on someone on vn boards and he'll end up being dragged away from the k/b.

I think you're right , just got back from lunch and after just glancing over that thread I'm a bit surprised at the lack of fanboi gushing praise I expected

Oh sure there are the usual , "we love you and you can kick my dog and I'd like it" posts , but there seems an overarching tone of "not enough" in the thread

I wonder how he's taking it

[Grim]

Hello F13.

[Soln]

Whole lotta rage on those boards.  Even the stalwarts are crying foul. 

[Jherad]

http://vnboards.ign.com/warhammer_online_age_of_reckoning_general_board/b22997/109545361/p19

Folks,

So, let's be clear on a few things before proceeding:

1) I'm not going to answer any questions in this topic apart from what is contained in my letter. This topic is for discussion of the oRvR letter only. I'm not being rude, uncaring, etc. but everyone here knows that if I go off-topic just once, this thread will devolve into lots of "Look at my issue" posts and arguments about those posts and this thread will be rendered useless.

2) I've said multiple times that the letter only details some of the things that we are working on. It is very clear about that so I don't think that we need to see any more "Mythic needs to fix this/address this/etc." in this thread as per (1) and (2). Also, please keep in mind that the odds that we are already paying attention to your oRvR issue(s)is quite high as oRvR is the focus of a number of people at Mythic and not just me.

3) In regards to one slightly off-topic issue (crashes), the game is very stable and is not crashing a lot, so any statements saying the servers are crashing like crazy are simply not true. I'll post more on this when I get some additional information from the team but the fact is that the servers are still stable. The "server stability" message that people are talking about I'll explain in more detail once I get some more information from the team.

4) In terms of the whole "my letter is fluff stuff" well, that's simply not true. This thread is probably at least 50/50 in terms of "Give us more stuff in oRvR" posts so I doubt that those people think that it is fluff even if all that was in it was us adding some shiny new stuff to the game. However, considering that my letter makes it clear that the changes include everything from experience gain, renown gain, item game, keep upgrades, new systems and titles, I'm not sure how that stuff can be considered fluff. The whole point of these additions/changes is to make leveling through oRvR more rewarding and faster and not simply to give people a shiny new toy every 5 levels or so.

5) In terms of the fame system being a new grind, no, not at all. It is intended to be the oRvR equivalent of the ToK for PvE but geared to oRvR. It is meant to be a compliment to the other oRvR reward systems but like I said, kicked up a few notches.

6) In terms of "This is not what the player base wants", well, the player base, as usual in any MMO, wants a lot of different things. Some players want more gear, other players want titles, others want experience, etc. and some want everything and more. However, in one of those rare instances where almost the entire player base wants one thing, I believe it is simply that the player base wants more people to engage in oRvR. In order to do that, we will use a variety of systems, rewards, etc. to get people into oRvR. If want we are doing/planning on doing isn't enough, well, we'll keep trying and add more incentives. There is no singly "silver bullet" that will get more people into oRvR instantly that also doesn't mess things up more in the long term. We've already done a lot to get more people into oRvR and we'll continue to do a lot more over the next few months and beyond.

7) In terms of "If we don't do this tomorrow, we're out of business" stuff, well, sorry, that's not how these things work. No MMO developer designs, tests and deploys major system upgrades quickly. Sometimes they have them already in the works/developed before they talk about them but apart from that, adding systems as complicated as the ones we're adding can't happen overnight here and they don't happen anywhere else either. We're upgrading a lot of things over the next few months in oRvR as well as the rest of the game and no developer's resources are unlimited. No MMO ever sprung completely done from the developer's head and WAR is no exception. We're working a lot of things besides these oRvR additions and we'll keep churning out content as fast as we can. The entire team is still focused on the LIVE version of WAR so it's not like we are being distracted by anything else.

8) On the "Why is this stuff taking so long?" it's only two months since we've launched and we have two major patches already in testing. The first is 1.0.6 with a ton of C&C changes/fixes and 1.1 with new content, fixes, etc. 1.0.6 is nearing final and I hope that 1.1 will go LIVE more quickly than 1.0.6 did. However, we are going to test and iterate on our patches longer than we did at times with DAoC precisely because we don't want to repeat some of the mistakes we made then. Unlike in DAoC, the decisions we are making on a lot of these issues are not being made simply by one individual but rather being talked about and vetted from multiple people within Mythic. There are times when I do say "We must do this, period" but I prefer to get people's thoughts, ideas, feedback, etc. before we undertake any major changes. And in terms of other people on the team, they have to get buy-in and sign-off on anything big. Again, we are not going to repeat some of the mistakes that we made with DAoC. If this means it will take a little longer, so be it. We need to get it right as opposed to simply getting it now.

So, those are some of my thoughts and additional comments for now.

Mark

[schild]

6) In terms of "This is not what the player base wants", well, the player base, as usual in any MMO, wants a lot of different things. Some players want more gear, other players want titles, others want experience, etc.

I can't think of a game where every PLAYER didn't want more exp. Forum Warriors, of course, voice loudly that more exp means that they're hardcoreness will eventually be caught up to, but no one REALLY cares about them, they just don't want to say it.

My real problem: This whole thing has been about what Mark wants. His vision for Warhammer is already distorted, why does he have to fight the obvious end to all of this every step along the way?

[Gurney]

I guess the theory is if there are more people to fight in oRVR, you'll gain xp faster...

Pretty sure the theory if "If you build it, they will come."

Unfortunately, he's wrong.

Actually I think that would be fine, but they are not "building" jack.

To extend the analogy.

Its more like throw money on an open field and hope it turns into a baseball field when people show up.

There is no baseball field.  

That is the whole problem with the oRvR and pretty much the whole game.

[khaine]

I take it he didn't get the reception he was expecting and has a bruised ego now ?

How long till he says he won't tolerate being questioned and takes his toys home and doesn't post there any more ?

[Gurney]

6) In terms of "This is not what the player base wants", well, the player base, as usual in any MMO, wants a lot of different things. Some players want more gear, other players want titles, others want experience, etc.

I can't think of a game where every PLAYER didn't want more exp. Forum Warriors, of course, voice loudly that more exp means that they're hardcoreness will eventually be caught up to, but no one REALLY cares about them, they just don't want to say it.

My real problem: This whole thing has been about what Mark wants. His vision for Warhammer is already distorted, why does he have to fight the obvious end to all of this every step along the way?

He is making the classic mistake of people who don't know how to deal with other people: taking them at their literal word.  If you took everyone literally on the various forums you would think everyone is a bunch of whiny dumbasses who have no idea what they want.

Well that is actually true for the most however, they do know what they want to some degree you simply have to read between the lines.  In fact people are quite consistent and in line with each other when you distill it down to what is really bugging them.  However you will be chasing your tail in circles if you take them literally or try to discuss it with them.  If a lot of people are all ocmplaining about stuff in a similar vein then there is problem.  Doesn't mean it is exactly what they are saying it is.

Bottom line people may be dumb but they aren't stupid. 

MJ does not do this he just throws crap at what seem plausible based on whomever he happens to think is not that dumb.  Like someone else mentioned Mythic needs a psychologist badly.

[Herring]

MJ does not do this he just throws crap at what seem plausible based on whomever he happens to think is not that dumb.  Like someone else mentioned Mythic needs a psychologist badly.

That's why this made me chuckle:

    earwax6 posted:"That's why my letter wasn't a "State of the Game" and I never said it was.

    Mark"

    you got an A in pyschology didn't ya. wink

LOL, actually no, it was the lowest grade I ever got in college. That course and I didn't get along at all.

Mark

http://vnboards.ign.com/warhammer_online_age_of_reckoning_general_board/b22997/109545361/r109545989/

[schild]

Bottom line people may be dumb but they aren't stupid. 

People can be both dumb and stupid. More often than not, especially on the internet, they're both.

That's neither here nor there though when obvious game design is obvious.

[khaine]

"I don't know if Mark is on the test forums but Andy Belford has banned a lot of helpful posters on there already (not me though). In two weeks, he will have banned every single invited tester.

Take the ban stick away from Andy, please. He needs to be enrolled in a Moderating school. 


Thank you."


Saw this post on the VN one , anyone here with secret access to the super secret test server forums know if this is true ? I remember sprees of "locked for feedback" on the closed beta forums at times

Clue #2 I should have realized , that when "locked for feedback" is the most common post by a dev/official mod on the closed beta forums of any game , expect incoming trainwreck

[Bismallah]

I can see 14 people on the old mythic beta forum, which I think has the super secret forum on there.

Of the red names:

Jfarinelli_EAMythic
DFrazier_EAMythic

Latest member is RBocksnick_Mythic

So, not sure who is really using that server or not, most online today was 27. I cant see any posts at all...

[Lantyssa]

LOL, actually no, it was the lowest grade I ever got in college. That course and I didn't get along at all.

Mark

That explains so much.

Hint:  If your game is based on feeding a Pavlovian response, it might be helpful to know some psychology when designing it.

[d4rkj3di]

There is no singly "silver bullet" that will get more people into oRvR instantly that also doesn't mess things up more in the long term.

I think boosting oRvR xp for player kills, BO's and Keeps by 5x would instantly get a fuckton of people into oRvR and doesn't mess up shit in the long term. Mostly because WAR's long term is dependent upon having as many players in T4 as possible.

[BitWarrior]

Hint:  If your game is based on feeding a Pavlovian response, it might be helpful to know some psychology when designing it.

Pavlov: The only shit people without psychology knowledge can readily quote. Just as effective as quoting e=mc2 to assert your knowledge of physics.

[BitWarrior]

There is no singly "silver bullet" that will get more people into oRvR instantly that also doesn't mess things up more in the long term.

I think boosting oRvR xp for player kills, BO's and Keeps by 5x would instantly get a fuckton of people into oRvR and doesn't mess up shit in the long term. Mostly because WAR's long term is dependent upon having as many players in T4 as possible.

Make the logo bigger. Bigger. BIGGER.

Yeah, no. That's not a solution.

[Arthur_Parker]

T1 - T2 is the only part of the game working correctly, even then orvr is pointless.  But low level Scenarios won't keep the faithful subscribed for long, he's rightly getting blasted on the forums for ignoring the fortress issue totally in his first orvr statement.  If they don't fix or can't fix the perception that it's impossible to take a fortress then the game is dead, high end pve and rvr needs city capture, it's the whole point of the game.  His exp grind kills alts dead in T3 except for the hardcore and after two months even non hardcore players are reaching T4 on their mains and discovering there's nothing to do except keep swap or get frustrated in crappy PVE dungeons with stupid lockout timers.

Why is it so difficult to fix itemisation?  If they do an item database dump, surely it would only take a couple of days for a single person to fix the stats, whatever method they have for pumping the items back into the game must totally suck.

Linky

Mythic, Go in your wife's purse and find your nuts. Then use them to make some hard decisions about which servers you need to close now. Dammit, I dont want to play another game....why are you letting us down?

Done.  Check the Herald:

http://warhammerherald.com/warherald/NewsArticle.war?id=474

Mark

Free Character Transfers Round 7

Another seven servers, from a quick count, including 14 in the EU, I make it 49 dead WAR servers.

Edit fixed server numbers.

[HaemishM]

There is no singly "silver bullet" that will get more people into oRvR instantly that also doesn't mess things up more in the long term.

I think boosting oRvR xp for player kills, BO's and Keeps by 5x would instantly get a fuckton of people into oRvR and doesn't mess up shit in the long term. Mostly because WAR's long term is dependent upon having as many players in T4 as possible.

Make the logo bigger. Bigger. BIGGER.

Yeah, no. That's not a solution.

Yes, it is. You make the experience gain greater than what you get in Tor Anroc for t3, you'll get people out of the scenarios and in the oRVR lakes. Hell, look at the first night of their Witching Night event. On Ulthuan, a server that had been mostly dead in oRVR before then, there was a reward dangled out there and people were packed into the t3 oRVR area where the event took place. It was only after they discovered that the rewards were dick that people stopped doing the event. Give people a better reason to be there, they'll be there and 5x experience in t3 would sure as shit do it.

Of course, they'd need to follow that change with a fix to the radius for getting a reward from a keep take (click the chest either at the warcamp or the keep itself) and more experience/renown for taking a keep and a BO in succession, and you'll get people out there.

Or they could keep dicking around like they have been and keep bleeding subs.

[Bismallah]

Whew 49... brutal.

If that says anything, it says that the game is still hemorrhaging badly.

[Lantyssa]

Pavlov: The only shit people without psychology knowledge can readily quote. Just as effective as quoting e=mc2 to assert your knowledge of physics.

I figured I'd put it in terms the Mythic crew could understand should they ever come around.

[trias_e]

Pavlov: The only shit people without psychology knowledge can readily quote. Just as effective as quoting e=mc2 to assert your knowledge of physics.

I will admit straight up I don't know that much about psychology.

Behavioralism simply relates to well to MMORPGs.  Quoting Jungian archetypes might be able to explain our playing these games in some round-a-bout fashion, but damn, these games are really too damn close to skinner boxes mixed with chat rooms to ignore.  Especially considering WARs failure so clearly has to do with inspiring motivation to do certain things in the game.

[Kail]

Folks,

So, let's be clear on a few things before proceeding:
(...)
4) (snip...) However, considering that my letter makes it clear that the changes include everything from experience gain, renown gain, item game, keep upgrades, new systems and titles, I'm not sure how that stuff can be considered fluff.

The letter did not, in fact, make any of that clear.  Boosting XP gain was not mentioned, as far as I can see.  It did not mention renown.  Changes to the "item game" I don't know about, if it's referring to ward gear then it should have been in forty-point bold flashing text at the top, perhaps with little jpegs of bugles on either side.  New systems like fame were vague, new titles are basically the epitome of fluff.  Keep upgrades won't be in-game for six months.  What, really, is this supposed to be announcing?

[Modern Angel]

I can't believe anyone thinks they have a vision for this game. I don't think they know shit about shit and are paralyzed.

[Grim]

Hello F13.

[Trippy]

Clue #2 I should have realized , that when "locked for feedback" is the most common post by a dev/official mod on the closed beta forums of any game , expect incoming trainwreck

I knew it was going to be a trainwreck when it was stated in the forum rules that you couldn't compare classes -- i.e. they all had to be discussed in isolation to each other That makes a lot of sense in a PvP game

[Grim]

Hello F13.

[Trippy]

The beta forums were a joke. I've never been in a beta with such tightly controlled forums. A lot of people blame the beta testers for the problems with the game but they way they handled the forums totally hamstrung what feedback the testers could provide. Not only could you only talk about what they wanted you to talk about but they shut you up (locked threads) whenever they felt people had talked long enough and almost all the discussions were "one-sided". The developers were rarely on the boards to talk things through with the testers.

[Ard]

Pavlov: The only shit people without psychology knowledge can readily quote. Just as effective as quoting e=mc2 to assert your knowledge of physics.

I will admit straight up I don't know that much about psychology.

Behavioralism simply relates to well to MMORPGs.  Quoting Jungian archetypes might be able to explain our playing these games in some round-a-bout fashion, but damn, these games are really too damn close to skinner boxes mixed with chat rooms to ignore.  Especially considering WARs failure so clearly has to do with inspiring motivation to do certain things in the game.

You don't even need to understand much or go into deep psychology, since Bartle already long since broke down the primary reasons why people play these games.  And between his analysis, and the Daedelus Project, you get a pretty clear picture that those various types will NEVER mesh well together, and why trying to appease everyone only results in failure.

[Sophismata]

I guess the theory is if there are more people to fight in oRVR, you'll gain xp faster...

Pretty sure the theory if "If you build it, they will come."

Unfortunately, he's wrong.

Actually I think that would be fine, but they are not "building" jack.

To extend the analogy.

Its more like throw money on an open field and hope it turns into a baseball field when people show up.

It's throwing the money, and hoping that when the people come they'll build the field for you.

Saw this post on the VN one , anyone here with secret access to the super secret test server forums know if this is true ? I remember sprees of "locked for feedback" on the closed beta forums at times

They seemed to be pretty liberal about this though, at least on the Shadow Warrior forum. I directly compared the two (SW and BW) and received no moderator attention. I think only going through the classes at an ability to ability level, or some equally contorted argument, managed to get their attention. Overall, I think their moderating was fine on the PTS forum.

Yeah, their moderation is fine. Anybody who's managed to get banned is probably a douchebag. They are trying to patch in specific changes, so they obviously want feedback on those changes. It's not their job to make sweeping alterations to the the game or the careers, just to get 1.0.6 out the door. As such, the three page long posts on why BW are better than Sorcs are deleted in preference of a bullet point list that shows what works and what doesn't in 1.0.6.

If that says anything, it says that the game is still hemorrhaging badly.

Don't be silly. Everything is fabulous - in fact, subscription numbers are increasing.

...especially in Europe.

[Grim]

Hello F13.

[waylander]

This game is going to take a massive dive.  He's half assed giving the players what they want while implementing some grand vision of shit that players barely asked for in ORVR.  RVR is fundamentally broken, the other side can boycott to prevent you from capping a zone to advance the war, etc.

Just like Failcom, Mythic is cramming its vision down everyone's throats when all the players want is fun an exciting RVR.  Its near universal that people think T1-2 is good in this game, and that T3-4 sucks balls.  Funcom had the same issue with a shitty end game, and instead of fixing the core issues they kept beating around the bushes with minor shit here and there. They went from 800k subs to 100k subs and being a non factor in the MMO world.  Its amazing how Mythic is going down that same path.  The 1.1 patch is a big make or break for lots of people.

Yeah there aren't any huge launches War has to compete with this year, but hell I'll play FPS's or something soon and wait for the next MMO by Arenanet or Bioware before I keep playing this shit. A PVP game that's boring as hell to play only gets 90 days to make it right from me, or I write them off for good.