Star Trek

[HaemishM]

I hope that the writing on the next one is better.  The story needed some help.

See, this is what I'm getting from all these demi-reviews.  If it wasn't Star Trek you all would've ripped it apart pages back and been done with it. That's all I've needed to know to give it a skip until DVD.

Yes, because the overwhelming arc of this thread hasn't somehow been ripping the dogfuck out of most of the Star Trek properties for being retread shit.

It was GOOD STAR TREK. It wasn't literature, it wasn't even the best science fiction, but then neither was original Star Trek. Just because armies of nerds over decades have tried to turn the creator into the Great Firebird of the Universe and the movies and TV shows have had pretensions of grandeur don't make them cerebral art.

The characters were interesting, the direction was good, the CGI was beautiful, and the story was fast-paced and fun. It never had to be more than that, Star Trek or no.

[Hindenburg]

  If it wasn't Star Trek you all would've ripped it apart pages back and been done with it.

Perhaps you should read the Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull thread?

[Ironwood]

 

[Murgos]

  If it wasn't Star Trek you all would've ripped it apart pages back and been done with it.

Perhaps you should read the Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull thread?

Or, like how we all fellated Ep 1-3, right WUA?

[Slyfeind]

I'm not being contrary for the sake of it - I went in expecting big things given all the praise I've seen of this film. Instead I saw a good looking sci fi space film with a completely formula Star Trek narrative.

Wow, really? I didn't get that at all. Completely formula Star Trek has lower stakes, less action, doesn't wipe out entire civilizations, and anything seriously universe-changing is discreditted as a dream sequence or simulation. It did have the usual tie-in to the rest of the franchise, but other than that, I'd say it was very anti-Star Trek.

[Ratman_tf]

I'm not being contrary for the sake of it - I went in expecting big things given all the praise I've seen of this film. Instead I saw a good looking sci fi space film with a completely formula Star Trek narrative.

Wow, really? I didn't get that at all. Completely formula Star Trek has lower stakes, less action, doesn't wipe out entire civilizations, and anything seriously universe-changing is discreditted as a dream sequence or simulation. It did have the usual tie-in to the rest of the franchise, but other than that, I'd say it was very anti-Star Trek.

They can still hit the reset button! Maybe the sequel will be Janeway coming back in time to save Vulcan. 

(I still haven't seen the movie though, so I can't get properly fanraged over it.  )

[Venkman]

I hope that the writing on the next one is better.  The story needed some help.

See, this is what I'm getting from all these demi-reviews.  If it wasn't Star Trek you all would've ripped it apart pages back and been done with it. That's all I've needed to know to give it a skip until DVD.

That's sort of an odd argument. This movie wouldn't have been possible without the IP. Generic sci-fi worlds don't work unless they're animated, mixed with a strong dose of horror, or retread Bruce Willis themes. I leave "good" sci-fi to Barnes & Noble.

This whole movie would have to be rethought to be a generic sci-fi. The story, every ship, every set, the time travel bit, all the costumes, actors and characters. Heck, just imagine if this was called Star Wars, and done around the time Empire Strikes Back came out. Now remove all the heritage, history, fan service and the fans itself.

Liking it as good Trek is exactly what they were setting out to do.

[Tale]

If it wasn't Star Trek you all would've ripped it apart pages back and been done with it. That's all I've needed to know to give it a skip until DVD.

That's sort of an odd argument. This movie wouldn't have been possible without the IP.

It's not an odd argument to me. He's saying imagine there's no Star Trek, it's easy if you try. No canon below us, above us only sky. And then someone makes this corny space adventure, call it what you will. Imagine this is a new IP, an original thought. Or you're from a cave and this is your first encounter with the IP.

Would you like it? Would this movie succeed as a standalone product? Or is it liked because it's fan service, and underneath it's a bit thin? I thought it was OK, but thin. I would rather have a solid rip-roaring adventure, screw the fan service.

[Samwise]

Would you like it? Would this movie succeed as a standalone product? Or is it liked because it's fan service, and underneath it's a bit thin? I thought it was OK, but thin. I would rather have a solid rip-roaring adventure, screw the fan service.

As has been pointed out, people are typically MORE critical of new material from a beloved IP, not LESS.  If IMDB is any indication, the really hardcore fans are the only ones who actually hated this movie.  And we have a number of people in this very thread saying they either dislike Star Trek or have no prior experience with it, but liked this movie.  So saying "lol you only like it cuz it's Star Trek" seems more than mildly retarded.  No disrespect.

Haven't seen it myself yet BTW.

[Raging Turtle]

Just saw it, thought it was great, and I can't be bothered to read the previous 15 pages.  If you didn't like it or expected a different kind of Star Trek, you're a bad person and that's all I can say   


fake edit to reply to Samwise:  Yeah, I can see how the trekkies might not like it.  Screw them.  I assume someone has already posted the Onion video about the movie so I won't repost it. 

[Venkman]

Would you like it? Would this movie succeed as a standalone product? Or is it liked because it's fan service, and underneath it's a bit thin? I thought it was OK, but thin. I would rather have a solid rip-roaring adventure, screw the fan service.

I'm saying it wouldn't exist without the IP. To much prescience in the IP, too little actual sci-fi delivered to the big screen, much less during the summer months. Without the IP and all the elements within, you've got a basic pro-American optimism more appropriate for the same era that gave us Independence Day or Armaggedon than an actual sci-fi movie. And you'd need to spend a LOT more time explaining why all those pieces are in place, or create such a strong allegory to convention that you end up with something like the aforementioned Fifth Element where the movie itself is based on a formula timeless enough that the specific setting is irrelevant.

So no, I don't think this movie would exist with almost 40 years of Trek heritage. It wouldn't have gotten greenlit, a script, certainly not the attention of JJ nor the budget from Paramount, nor the marketing nor distribution nor timing support. The movie is the product of the system that was required to get it there. You might as well ask how good this movie would have been without JJ Abrams doing it.

But even putting all that aside for a sec, the reason I don't go for this line of thought is because that logic sets an expectation that no franchise sequel could reach. Is Lethal Weapon 4 any good without 1 and 2? Is Return of the Jedi any good without ESB and ANH? Spiderman 2 wouldn't have worked without the entire franchise. Wolverine wouldn't likely exist without Hugh Jackman making the X-men series palatable.

Franchise sequels work because of the shorthand that fans of the IP (or the actors, or the director, or all of it) bring with them.

[Ratman_tf]

fake edit to reply to Samwise:  Yeah, I can see how the trekkies might not like it.  Screw them.  I assume someone has already posted the Onion video about the movie so I won't repost it. 

It's brilliant marketing, and makes the movie nearly impervious to critisism.

[Merusk]

Franchise sequels work because of the shorthand that fans of the IP (or the actors, or the director, or all of it) bring with them.

And yet, throwing out that very shorthand is what everyone was praising the idea for to begin with.  Make up your mind, here.   Is the IP tired and lame and needs to be tossed out, or are you warm to the idea of it because it dredges up those old memories and recalls those tired and lame ideas. 


Trippy gets what I was saying.  The whole shebang seems thin and weak with a lot of plot holes.  "Well turn your brain off here and it's good!" "Well, the villain's motivations are stupid."  "Why, if you can time travel, would you go back and try to kill the only guy trying to save your planet?"   These are paraphrases from people who say they liked the movie.  This doesn't inspire me to go see it, and I can wait for the dvd.

[ahoythematey]

The fact of the matter is that you have absolutely no say in this without actually seeing the movie, nevermind whether or not Trippy understands your hypothetical point of view.

Oh, and the shorthand for this is in having Kirk be like Kirk, Spock play Spock, and so forth.

[Velorath]

Franchise sequels work because of the shorthand that fans of the IP (or the actors, or the director, or all of it) bring with them.

And yet, throwing out that very shorthand is what everyone was praising the idea for to begin with.  Make up your mind, here.   Is the IP tired and lame and needs to be tossed out, or are you warm to the idea of it because it dredges up those old memories and recalls those tired and lame ideas. 


Trippy gets what I was saying.  The whole shebang seems thin and weak with a lot of plot holes.  "Well turn your brain off here and it's good!" "Well, the villain's motivations are stupid."  "Why, if you can time travel, would you go back and try to kill the only guy trying to save your planet?"   These are paraphrases from people who say they liked the movie.  This doesn't inspire me to go see it, and I can wait for the dvd.

There's a difference between needing to toss an IP out and needing to get back to basics.  For one thing, TOS had a very different tone from TNG and everything that came after, and it's been over 17 years since the last movie with the original crew, so it's not really accurate to call it tired and lame.

Also, I'd say there are very few IP's if any that just need to be tossed out completely.  Many of the same people here who are sick as hell of almost all things Star Wars these days would probably still love it if a talented writing and directing team did a movie that captured the essence of New Hope and Empire.

And yeah, I said myself that the plot in and of itself isn't that great, but it's one of those cases where I don't really care.  It's not about turning my brain off (I've said it myself many times that I find that kind of thinking to be a cop-out to excuse liking shit movies).  I enjoy it as an origin story that sets up how this reimagined crew meets and interacts with each other.  It's very much a character driven movie rather than plot driven.  If you're hell bent on reading into that that this movie sucks somehow, so be it.

[UnSub]

I'm not being contrary for the sake of it - I went in expecting big things given all the praise I've seen of this film. Instead I saw a good looking sci fi space film with a completely formula Star Trek narrative.

Wow, really? I didn't get that at all. Completely formula Star Trek has lower stakes, less action, doesn't wipe out entire civilizations, and anything seriously universe-changing is discreditted as a dream sequence or simulation. It did have the usual tie-in to the rest of the franchise, but other than that, I'd say it was very anti-Star Trek.

Whether or not the destruction of Vulcan does anything at all to the Star Trek universe will depend on how the next movie deals with it. The end of this movie indicated that since they'd saved the Vulcan Grand High Cultural Elite, the culture was secure, and now they were seeding colonies. I can easily see the fact that Vulcan is destroyed could make little notable difference to the actual importance of Vulcans in future lore. (They may get a 'they blew our planet up!' emo phase but they aren't going to be a less important race to the Federation as a result, nor is it likely they are going to give up the pursuit of logic.)

If Spock was the only Vulcan left, I could agree with you. But he isn't - I think they said 10 000 were left, which is more than enough for the lore to keep them active.

[rk47]

"Its just another Alderaan" said a buddy of mine.

[Venkman]

Franchise sequels work because of the shorthand that fans of the IP (or the actors, or the director, or all of it) bring with them.

And yet, throwing out that very shorthand is what everyone was praising the idea for to begin with.  Make up your mind, here. 

What? This movie only threw out a bunch of backstory people steadily grew less interested in over the last few decades anyway. Everything that was important was retained, from the characters to their histories to that point, to the state of the galaxy to that point, to the ship(s) to the secondary characters and all the important references. They didn't twist up a bunch of stuff that anyone outside the trekkies would even notice anyway. Kirk is still Kirk, Spock still Spock, warp power, starships, space stations, San Francisco, all still there.

People keep calling this a reboot, but the only part I really thought was rebooted was how the story was told (acting, directing, sfx, camera work, etc). The reboot doesn't really happen until we see some more fallout from the plot elements laid down here, and that's where UnSub's point comes in. We're at least another movie and a TV show away from knowing whether the story was rebooted. And we're another movie away from the franchise business was rebooted.

Besides, my point about "franchise sequels" was more to Tale's question about how this movie would stand as a generic sci-fi flick. That's why this wasn't really a reboot. If it was, everything would need to be different.

[pxib]

That was fun.

It was fun to see the very broad inside jokes. It was fun to watch the action and special effects setpieces. It was fun to laugh and cringe and jump. This isn't high art, it's sci-fi. It's frivolous space opera. When somebody makes superb speculative fiction which questions fundamental assumptions about humanity and explores the cultural potenital inherent in technological change... oh I'll be all over that. Until then I'm happy to watch a popcorn flick that fills the big screen.

Was well worth the $5.00 matinee, and I'd recommend it to just about anybody.

[Trippy]

When somebody makes superb speculative fiction which questions fundamental assumptions about humanity and explores the cultural potenital inherent in technological change... oh I'll be all over that.

The TV shows did that. The movies, not so much.

[ahoythematey]

That was fun.

It was fun to see the very broad inside jokes. It was fun to watch the action and special effects setpieces. It was fun to laugh and cringe and jump. This isn't high art, it's sci-fi. It's frivolous space opera. When somebody makes superb speculative fiction which questions fundamental assumptions about humanity and explores the cultural potenital inherent in technological change... oh I'll be all over that. Until then I'm happy to watch a popcorn flick that fills the big screen.

Was well worth the $5.00 matinee, and I'd recommend it to just about anybody.

More recently, The Fountain tried to do that.

[Samwise]

I saw the movie tonight, finally.  Was very fun.  Recommended viewing.

[Simond]

When somebody makes superb speculative fiction which questions fundamental assumptions about humanity and explores the cultural potenital inherent in technological change... oh I'll be all over that.

The TV shows did that. The movies, not so much.

Nah, not really. With the technology and mindset the Federation is supposed to have they should be a lot more like The Culture and a lot less like they are shown.

[Quinton]

Nah, not really. With the technology and mindset the Federation is supposed to have they should be a lot more like The Culture and a lot less like they are shown.

Really?  I have always wondered what the hell all the not-traveling-on-starships people in the Federation did, but I never thought that they'd have any cultural similarity to The Culture (besides being post-scarcity, not-much-use-for-money type societies).

[Jain Zar]

All this Trek is making me want to play Federation Commander some more.
Too bad the person I played it with is a total douchebag who I never want to speak to again. 
Oh well, time to make my current gamegroup play it.  I need an excuse to buy the new Orion Pirates and Lyran/Hydran sets anyhow. 

[Soln]

finally got to see this.  Entertaining.  Good action film.  Far superior to recent Speilberg or Bay etc.  Excellent film for the Trek franchise.  Could've used a little more polish, but terrific with the entrance of characters we already knew before the film.

Basic complaint -- should've been longer.  It felt short.  I didn't mind the cheese here and there, but story felt too quick.

[Hawkbit]

Finally saw it tonight.  I really enjoyed it.  Well worth my $9.00.

I'm going to bitch about some stuff though, in typical F13 fashion. 

As some others said, it seemed short.  They had a lot of ground to cover, but they wasted a bit of time on filler. 

[Chenghiz]

LENS FLARES EVERYWHERE

[K9]

[Delmania]

Saw the movie over the weekend with my wife.  We both liked it.  The only complaint I really had was that some of the actions scenes were too blurry.

[Brogarn]

[K9]

[Quinton]

But that didn't change, really.  Even prior to the reboot in the new movie, Kirk beat the test by cheating... I just think the Kirk in this version of trek was a little more in-your-face about it during the test itself.  Same basic premise though -- he doesn't believe in a no-win scenario and beats it by "thinking outside the box."

[pxib]

As some others said, it seemed short.  [He] had a lot of ground to cover, but [he] wasted a bit of time on filler. 

This is, in a nutshell, my opinion of all of J.J. Abrams' efforts. Sometimes it works, other times I wish he'd just tell the story.

[Rishathra]

tory later on. 
2.  The kid Spock scene was terribly acted.  As in Phantom Menace Anakin bad. 

Wasn't that deliberate, though?  I enjoyed that scene because it was an example of that even when Vulcans are trash talking each other, they are bland and deadpan.