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Author Topic: Star Trek  (Read 172977 times)
Velorath
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Reply #35 on: November 18, 2008, 05:21:56 PM

I'm underwhelmed but only because it's Star Trek.

That implies Star Trek somehow sets high expectations.
Sir T
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Reply #36 on: November 18, 2008, 05:32:09 PM

Why does this rmake me thing they have pulled out that god awful "Kirk and Spock Relive school days" movie idea that they were damn close to making before George Takei found out (I think he even snuck a look at the script) and went around to every star trek con screaming about it resulting in the deluge of fan mail that persuaded them to shelve the idea and instead make "Star trek 6 - the really good movie" instead? (probably the last of the truly great trek films, bar perhaps "Nemesis" which was actually fairly enjoyable)

If so this is going to be a monumental cluster fuck of epic proportions. So many people's "We were right 10 years ago and this idea is awesome dammit" egos are going to be riding on this movie that it cant not suck. I forsee a mix of Lost in Space and Thunderbirds...

Hic sunt dracones.
DraconianOne
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Reply #37 on: November 19, 2008, 02:32:34 AM

I'm underwhelmed but only because it's Star Trek.

That implies Star Trek somehow sets high expectations.

Really?  The implication was meant to be "It's Star Trek therefore I'm underwhelmed". 

EDIT: which could be read to say the same thing. Let me be quite clear. I have no interest in this film at all because it's about an IP that I don't care about.  Also, the trailer doesn't sell it to me as a non Trek fan because it seems to cater to the fan base albeit not as much as the first one did.

A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
Venkman
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Reply #38 on: November 20, 2008, 07:31:02 PM

I would bet this trailer does not appeal to the fanbase. There's no morality discussion. There's no other races shown (til the very end). There's no sense of story/narrative conveyed at all. And all of the action shown are conflict and space battles.

Having said that, it looks like a damn fun movie that could spawn a television series what with the TV actors they've been using (even Simon Pegg who while has done movie work could maybe be convinced into a series). But more importantly it looks truly like the IP reset Paramount sourly needs. I'd guess this movie does real well even if it alienates the base, such as it is these days.
apocrypha
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Reply #39 on: November 20, 2008, 11:30:46 PM

I've always liked Star Trek (except for Voyager and several of the films ofc) but I wouldn't consider myself part of "the fanbase" (the Worf & Troi costume incident notwithstanding) and I thought that was a pretty cool trailer. Trailers rarely say fuck all about the final product of course, so wait-and-see will be the policy for me :)

I liked the shot of the Enterprise being built though. Mind you, I never thought of the Enterprise ships as being believably capable of landfall, they just look so fragile.

"Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to socialism or regression into barbarism" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1915.
FatuousTwat
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Reply #40 on: November 21, 2008, 12:46:46 AM

I would bet this trailer does not appeal to the fanbase. There's no morality discussion. There's no other races shown (til the very end). There's no sense of story/narrative conveyed at all. And all of the action shown are conflict and space battles.

Don't want to sound like an ass, but I guess that makes me not part of the fanbase.

I'm going into this looking at it as a breath of fresh air. The whole Star Trek universe has been stagnating for some time, and I really hope this breathes some new life into it, ala the new Batman movies.

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
Murgos
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Reply #41 on: November 21, 2008, 11:27:52 AM

The bar has been set so low by the recent series and movies that there is almost no way for this movie to get under it.  So, sit back, stfu, eat some pop-corn and don't let the nerd rage consume you.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
NowhereMan
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Reply #42 on: November 21, 2008, 01:20:51 PM

It won't really be Star Trek unless Capt. Archer and Data appear half-way through to prevent the Romulans from assassinating a young Kirk and the Romulan is a half naked hot chick that Data bangs.

"Look at my car. Do you think that was bought with the earnest love of geeks?" - HaemishM
Venkman
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Reply #43 on: November 21, 2008, 04:12:59 PM

I would bet this trailer does not appeal to the fanbase. There's no morality discussion. There's no other races shown (til the very end). There's no sense of story/narrative conveyed at all. And all of the action shown are conflict and space battles.

Don't want to sound like an ass, but I guess that makes me not part of the fanbase.

You and me both. I actually think the IP reset thing is a good idea.
FatuousTwat
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Reply #44 on: November 21, 2008, 06:30:40 PM

It won't really be Star Trek unless Capt. Archer and Data appear half-way through to prevent the Romulans from assassinating a young Kirk and the Romulan is a half naked hot chick that Data bangs.

Wait. You mean that isn't going to happen? WELL FUCK THIS SHIT.

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
ahoythematey
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Reply #45 on: November 22, 2008, 04:56:00 PM

Found this during participation in the 90's song thread, thought I'd share it here too.  Whee.
FatuousTwat
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Reply #46 on: November 22, 2008, 05:34:35 PM

Another one along those lines, Star Trek White Rabbit.

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
WindupAtheist
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Reply #47 on: November 23, 2008, 02:12:03 PM

If I'm going to watch a music video with Nimoy in it, I know which one it will be.

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
Velorath
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Reply #48 on: November 25, 2008, 02:47:37 PM

Ratman_tf
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Reply #49 on: November 25, 2008, 04:31:47 PM


Maybe Riker will show up and the whole movie will turn out to be a holodeck novel.  awesome, for real



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
Jain Zar
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Reply #50 on: November 25, 2008, 06:10:38 PM


Maybe Riker will show up and the whole movie will turn out to be a holodeck novel.  awesome, for real

Sadly, I have already heard some rumors that it sort of is.  At least the IDW comic that is connecting to it has Next Gen links to it.
http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/6640371.html  (Maybe someone with more desire and brainpower can figure out what it all means and what is connected to what and how.  I have Fallout 3 to play.)

The trailer looks cool and Cloverfield fucking rocked, but that's no guarantee this will be any good.

I'd love to see this Trek movie be a total reboot and ignore EVERYTHING that came before and after it timeline wise and take it from the top.  Basically what Enterprise should have been other than same old Trek just looking better and trying desperately to make the casual Trek fans happy in the face of the hardcore flipping out over every continuity fart.

The Toho Godzilla movies prove you can endlessly reset your continuity and make some interesting stuff.  Maybe its time for Trek to try it instead of attempting to fit into a silly disjointed 40 year one?

Drop transporters and ultra tech and the idealistic but dubious ultra happy socialist society dreams Roddenberry had and go back to the foundation of what Trek could be.  (We don't need money but everyone loves that gold pressed latinum stuff?)

(Which does have idealism in it, but it needs to be BELIEVABLE idealism.  Uplifting and something people can see happening.  The mixed race, gender, and nationality thing of TOS was believable and may have had a little bit of influence on the real world, something all good sci fi should aim for really.  Unless its merely trying to do pulp action with LAZARS ala Star Wars.)

stray
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Reply #51 on: November 25, 2008, 11:24:38 PM

Quote
Drop transporters and ultra tech and the idealistic but dubious ultra happy socialist society dreams Roddenberry had and go back to the foundation of what Trek could be.

swamp poop
Reg
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Reply #52 on: November 25, 2008, 11:49:52 PM

If you just want some random science fiction movie then say so. What Jain seems to be looking for isn't Star Trek.
Triforcer
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Reply #53 on: November 25, 2008, 11:50:55 PM

Is it a bad sign that when I first viewed the trailer, I had the Dawson's Creek theme song in my head the entire time?  I kept wondering how Uhura would handle breaking up with Pacey. 

All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu.  This is the truth!  This is my belief! At least for now...
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Reply #54 on: November 26, 2008, 03:56:11 AM

(Which does have idealism in it, but it needs to be BELIEVABLE idealism.  Uplifting and something people can see happening.  The mixed race, gender, and nationality thing of TOS was believable and may have had a little bit of influence on the real world, something all good sci fi should aim for really.  Unless its merely trying to do pulp action with LAZARS ala Star Wars.)

Racial and international harmony wasn't believable idealism at the time ST was first created.  3 years after "I have a dream" 10 years after Brown vs Board of Education and right at the start of the Black Power movement.  The Cuban Missile crisis was only 4 years past and here they were putting one of those damn Commie Russians in the middle of the crew.

Star Trek was so far left and idealistic for it's time we should be surprised it survived and endured as it has.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 04:05:46 AM by Merusk »

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stray
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Reply #55 on: November 26, 2008, 03:58:03 AM

Martin Luther King was actually a fan... Always thought that was cool.


I don't think he'd be a fan of Jain's show though.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?
Ratman_tf
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Reply #56 on: November 26, 2008, 05:58:09 AM

Drop transporters and ultra tech and the idealistic but dubious ultra happy socialist society dreams Roddenberry had and go back to the foundation of what Trek could be.  (We don't need money but everyone loves that gold pressed latinum stuff?)

Star Trek without transporters is like a breakfast without rum.




 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
Venkman
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Reply #57 on: November 26, 2008, 09:16:47 AM

(Which does have idealism in it, but it needs to be BELIEVABLE idealism.  Uplifting and something people can see happening.  The mixed race, gender, and nationality thing of TOS was believable and may have had a little bit of influence on the real world, something all good sci fi should aim for really.  Unless its merely trying to do pulp action with LAZARS ala Star Wars.)

Racial and international harmony wasn't believable idealism at the time ST was first created.  3 years after "I have a dream" 10 years after Brown vs Board of Education and right at the start of the Black Power movement.  The Cuban Missile crisis was only 4 years past and here they were putting one of those damn Commie Russians in the middle of the crew.

But you could see it as viable in a fantastical sense.

Now imagine a world without money.

Believable fantasy is easy to convey as future history particularly at the time of MLK and various race-based goings on. It's also easy to imagine transporters and lasers because this was the era of NASA rising and the billions spent on stuff that might as well have been science fiction at the time too. As such, you can actually present these as future fact and anyone who bothered to think about it for a second on their own would arrive at that potentiality.

Money though, that's different. Imagine a world without money against the backdrop of how we live our lives today. The only frames of reference are cultures we read about in National Geographic. We're surrounded every day by the trappings of money, the drive to get more, the results of people leaching off the system, etc etc etc. How do you go from World War III to no money within the span of 200 years? I can imagine a lot of industries themselves being worthless in a future where transportation is not measured by distance or time invested and where all media experiences are instantly shareable in a post-Internet Internet. But commerce itself needs an underlay when you're talking about even just a few billion people, much less the quadrillion of the Federation.

I'm not saying it's impossible. I am saying though that unlike almost all other concepts, the no money thing requires an explanation that has never been given because it's more alien than any of the aliens they've ever portrayed in the movies and shows.
Merusk
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Reply #58 on: November 26, 2008, 09:42:08 AM

(Which does have idealism in it, but it needs to be BELIEVABLE idealism.  Uplifting and something people can see happening.  The mixed race, gender, and nationality thing of TOS was believable and may have had a little bit of influence on the real world, something all good sci fi should aim for really.  Unless its merely trying to do pulp action with LAZARS ala Star Wars.)

Racial and international harmony wasn't believable idealism at the time ST was first created.  3 years after "I have a dream" 10 years after Brown vs Board of Education and right at the start of the Black Power movement.  The Cuban Missile crisis was only 4 years past and here they were putting one of those damn Commie Russians in the middle of the crew.

But you could see it as viable in a fantastical sense.

No, you couldn't.  Talk to your parents, if they're in their 60's or your grandparents if they're still alive about that timeframe.  My grandmother is still amazed that we, as a nation, elected a black man.  See, "they just don't think like us."  The idea that blacks and whites could ever live together was fucking radical, if not plain batshit crazy.  It was so far left that a good portion of the population viewed anyone who thought that way the same way frutarians, PETA and other way-lefters are viewed today.

Quote
I'm not saying it's impossible. I am saying though that unlike almost all other concepts, the no money thing requires an explanation that has never been given because it's more alien than any of the aliens they've ever portrayed in the movies and shows.

The idea was there is no need for money when you can take raw mass and convert it into ANYTHING.  Gold loses value, latinum loses value.. any thing rare loses value if you can simply whip it up by recombining things at a quantum level.  The Transporter/ Transmuter is the one tech that allowed folks to do whatever the fuck they wanted, becuase you can't 'leech off the system' if everything is plentiful.  We never saw enough of civilian life to understand the world outside of the military, either.  It simply wan't part of the story that was cared about.

Latinum was only ever obsessed over by non-fed-aligned worlds and races like the Ferengi, whose whole culture was based on aquisition of goods.  If anything that culture stood out as the most "wtf, really?" because what they obsessed over made no sense.   If they had coveted artifacts or things whose value wasn't linked to mere mineral scarcity but a more metaphysical thing like 'history' or 'religious belief' they'd have made so much more sense.

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
Venkman
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Reply #59 on: November 26, 2008, 09:52:56 AM

Good points; however, I disagree on the race thing. I don't have any statistics, but you can't have the 60s without a culture that was looking to evolve its thinking. And we're still dealing with race issues today and probably will for some time. And TOS still had plenty of racism in it anyway, mostly because of their Star Wars-esque one-dimensionality to them. Just as every world had precisely one ecosphere, so did every race only really have one culture. Yes, that was to drive home the point of humans being all together, but when things were bad with the Klingons or Romulans, it was bad with ALL Klingons or Romulans. Only TNG started allowing for abnormalities like free-thinkers and factions within the races.

Now, if this was 150 years ago, I'd entirely agree. Things were "just that way" because that's how it was.

On transporters, you could convert mass to anything, but transmuters were not like coffee makers. As far as I know, in the 23rd century at least, only Starfleet had access to transporters. Everyone else used sky and ground transport of some form, and still had to build shit. But this goes right to your point about there being a lack of coverage about the culture beyond the military. It's this lack that is the root of why I don't think lack-of-money was ever addressed.
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Reply #60 on: November 26, 2008, 02:46:54 PM

There are episodes I've seen, DS9 ones, where Starfleet had money to deal with non Fed trading. So they do value it somewhat. The same could probably be said for many private citizens.

Voyager portrayed a lot of bartering. They still had the skill for it... therefore it must have not completely disappeared from their lives.
Jain Zar
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Reply #61 on: November 26, 2008, 09:15:52 PM

I will make one addendum.  My favorite Trek stories are Starfleet Universe ones.  The sorta but not really Trek of Starfleet Battles and Federation Commander.  Where idealism usually fails to basic human/human with funny forehead/furry human nature trumping everything else.  Turning its Trek universe into one endless series of wars in spite of anyone's good intentions.  In that universe the Federation's greatest accomplishments involved keeping the Kzinti from eating their captives and a temporary alliance with all the other Alpha Octant (not quadrant in SFU) factions in pushing the Andromedans out.  (Which was only thanks to another Federation like group deciding everyone in Alpha was violent nutjobs so they started millitarily enforcing everybody's borders and shooting anyone who was dumb enough to bring a combat ship near their opposition's border.  Of course this merely gave everyone a break from endless fighting so they could build more fleets.  This faction took the brunt of the Andromedan assault in the early stages.)

I dunno.  Maybe its just the way I grew up but I was always disappointed with Trek as a kid and perhaps I have a bit of a nitpicky bias against the franchise even though I want to like it.
WindupAtheist
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Reply #62 on: November 26, 2008, 11:39:00 PM

The idea was there is no need for money when you can take raw mass and convert it into ANYTHING.  Gold loses value, latinum loses value.. any thing rare loses value if you can simply whip it up by recombining things at a quantum level.  The Transporter/ Transmuter is the one tech that allowed folks to do whatever the fuck they wanted, becuase you can't 'leech off the system' if everything is plentiful.

Only if their replicators allow them to create so much of everything that no one ever needs to wait on anything ever. And as long as no one ever wants anything that not everyone can have, like a house on the beach, or their own spaceship, or a horse, or a trip to Jupiter, or a spiffy farm like Picard had.

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
Ironwood
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Reply #63 on: November 27, 2008, 12:56:56 AM

As I understood it, Latinum was valuable purely because it Couldn't be replicated.

Then there was that odd episode where Morn eat a bunch of it.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Tebonas
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Reply #64 on: November 27, 2008, 05:15:54 AM

That whole concept of a moneyfree society breaks down with DS9. Not only by trade with other races, but by restaurant of Siskos father on earth itself.

Somebody has a restaurant, people go there, get something better than replicated food and pay for it.

I can see a baseline provided by the government (starfleet). Basic Replicators for everyone, along with social security and healthcare. If you want perks, you got to work for them.

Sweden with Replicators!  awesome, for real
Reg
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Reply #65 on: November 27, 2008, 06:16:42 AM

They don't use money on Earth. They just don't. It's silly and unrealistic but supposedly people on Earth have progressed past such things.(1) Sisko's dad runs a restaurant because he likes to cook not because he's hoping to make tons of money and retire to do something he enjoys.

The Federation uses money to deal with outsiders - they might even use it internally between members but I'm very sure that money isn't used on Earth and hasn't been since the TOS era.(2)

(1) Remember the TNG episode where they revive those people who died in the 21 first century and were frozen? One of them was a Wall Street type who kept wanting to contact his lawyers to see if they'd taken care of his fortune properly. Picard told him flat out that his money was gone, nobody used it, and people were better than that now.

(2) In The Voyage Home Kirk tells the 20th century dolphin doctor that they don't use money where he's from.

There now you've made me expose my inner geek to everyone. I hope you're happy.
Ironwood
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Reply #66 on: November 27, 2008, 06:16:54 AM

Wasn't it Stephenson that said the same in his books ?  The Feed was provided by the Government for basic MC stuff, but it was like Bandwidth, in that you payed for the 'amount'.

Replicators would be similar, which is why all Starships would have them.

Actually, wait, who gives a fuck ?

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
Evildrider
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Reply #67 on: November 27, 2008, 09:55:47 AM

As I understood it, Latinum was valuable purely because it Couldn't be replicated.

Then there was that odd episode where Morn eat a bunch of it.


Not sure about the replicated part, but in that episode with Morn, didn't they basically say that Latinum is actually a liquid metal?  It seems that the bars and slips are actually just holding the liquid inside.
Evil Elvis
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Reply #68 on: November 27, 2008, 10:03:10 AM

FatuousTwat
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Reply #69 on: November 27, 2008, 06:03:01 PM

As I understood it, Latinum was valuable purely because it Couldn't be replicated.

Then there was that odd episode where Morn eat a bunch of it.


Not sure about the replicated part, but in that episode with Morn, didn't they basically say that Latinum is actually a liquid metal?  It seems that the bars and slips are actually just holding the liquid inside.

From Wikipedia:

"Latinum, or Gold-Pressed Latinum, used by Ferengi in the Star Trek universe, is a fictional liquid, stored in gold slips, strips, bars and bricks in standardized amounts. Latinum derives its value from being non-replicable by any known existing or predicted replication technology.[1] It should be noted that, as Quark points out in "Who Mourns for Morn?", the gold in Gold-Pressed Latinum is merely a convenient material in which to suspend standardized quantities of Latinum, which, as Rom points out in reply, is somewhat awkward to use as cash due to being a liquid at room temperature and standard pressure. (Compare with events in Venus Equilateral: in one episode, the crew of the titular space station invent similar replication technology, inadvertently creating a solar-system-wide inflation crisis (suddenly anyone can materialize all the cash they want out of thin air at the push of a button), which they then solve in the next episode by developing a substance which cannot be produced by replicators to be used to create non-replicable currency.)"

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
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