Level 32 to 40

[schild]

Without being a TOO negative, I'm just wondering how to do it.

See, there seems to be a problem.

1. I refuse to grind on mobs.
2. I would grind PvP but scenarios don't pop since like 5-10% of the server is in tier 4.
3. There's no open RvR to speak of because, well, see #2.
4. Can't finish public quests really since there's so few people and tier 4 is so big.

So I have to wonder, with the leveling curve as steep as it is for 22-31 (I did Tor Anroc a few hundred times), I'm trying to figure out what the design decisions were here. Did MJ and Co really think that many, many people would hit tier 4 at the same time and thus populate the ever-living fuck out of it? Is it one of those, well, eventually most of the server will be tier 4 type decisions? Or is it simpler than that - is it just bad design?

Right now, I'm flabbergasted by how little the quest rewards were. Near the end of tier 3, I was getting 5k-7k per quest and upwards 11k per quest in Gunbad. Even for fedex missions. In tier 4 it drops back to 4k-5k. Mind BLOWN. As such, obviously no one wants me questing. Also, quest rewards magically suck in tier 4, though the PQ stuff looks decent, but well, see #4.

As such, what's the solution here? Cut the experience in half to level, double (triple, or quadruple) quest exp, or something more radical? Maybe allow tier 4 people into tier 3 RvR or Scenarios?

I'm at a loss. I still fully plan on seeing it through, I'm just wondering what I'm supposed to do. Right now I suppose I can sit with my thumb up my ass for a few weeks, but it seems.... stupid.

[trias_e]

If you're going to separate your players into four distinct groups, you need to allow those in higher groups to move down.  Otherwise you are going to see these problems.  What is happening to those in t4 now is going to be happening to those in t1-t2 in a month.  It's terrible design, unless you allow those in higher tiers to move down at will.

The T4 problem is actually the much more short-term of the two.  The later T1-T3 problem is even more harmful as well, because no new player in their right mind will ever play WAR past the first week at that point.

My solutions are as follows:

First, increase the reward for scenarios/open RvR on underpopulated tiers.  So if you only have a scenario pop once in a hour, make it give 3 times as much xp as a tier that has a scenario pop once every 5 minutes.

Second, double quest xp flat out in tier 3 and tier 4.

Third, and this is the big one, you need to allow deleveling.  If I'm 32, I should be able to delevel to 28 and play in tier 3 anytime I want, and still gain xp from whatever I'm doing.  I honestly can't believe this isn't in a game with the design they have.  Big Fail.  And this was obvious before the game even came out as well.  In fact, this is a total no-brainer for WAR to succeed in the long term, especially considering all those scenarios you enjoyed while leveling just poof into non-existance every new tier you get into, and on open servers you are fucking getting chickened in PvE content which is the most retarded thing I've ever seen.  Just WTF Mythic.

Maybe they simply thought they'd cross that bridge when they come to it, but that sure as hell doesn't help the T4 folks now.

[Phunked]

I recently hit t3 for the second time (order alt now main).

There is already a content grind: I'm sure I'll be maxed influence with all PQs and quests done in regular zones in all 3 areas by say...27 or so, and thats with queues constantly running for TA.

Insert 5 levels of TA grind.

Hit t4 and ....


I realize that they don't want us skipping the content just to run to end game and catass. But when you look at it and understand that there isn't ACTUALLY any content to speak of (hi2u five other scenarios that never pop in t3) . Is it just going to be murderball in a temple then murderball in a volcano then murderball in a [insert here] for the whole end game?

[schild]

Ironically, the best sounding Scenario in tier 4 isn't even available. Caledor Woods. Straight up King of the (Literal) Hill death match. One capture point at the top of the hill. Hold it, gain extra points, both sides get 10 per kill. Quests for it are still given out in High Elf Chapter 15. But where's the scenario? Fucking MIA, that's where.

Honestly, I like that they're putting out patches for the fucking WORKING chat system that I don't give a fuck about, but come off it, they need to work on more important things right now. Like a deleveling system and streamlining content (still think they should double or triple all quest exp). Getting to 40 should be a joy and super fast. I don't see the harm in having a game full of tier 4 people.

[amiable]

Getting to 40 should be a joy and super fast. I don't see the harm in having a game full of tier 4 people.

Do you think this may have something to do with developer ego?  Maybe they do not like the fact that folks want to skip over the content they worked so hard to develop to get to endgame?

I'm glad I'm leveling my healer now, because there is no way in hell I would PvE a healer up to Tier 4. 

[schild]

I don't think it's developer ego so much as just stupid decisions. I still fully plan on taking an alt very slowly from 1-40 reading all the quest text and whatnot, but Tryst is basically, get quest - don't read shit - go to red splotch - finish red splot objective - maximize damage output along the way - get to tier 4.

I haven't decided what my Just Fun alt will be from 1-40, and I may very well wait til they add in other classes. But right now I'm just GROWL SNAP SNARL STOP FUCKING AROUND WITH GOLD SPAMMERS AND DOUBLE MY FUCKING QUEST EXP AND HALF THE REQUIRED EXP. FUCK YOU ELVES, FUCK YOU AND YOUR FETCH QUESTS GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH. God are they lucky the PVP rocks my fucking face off.

[Zetor]

I liked the empire-chaos tier4 scenarios during c-beta, though the "campaign" effectively restricts you to only 1-2 per pairing at all times, so yeah. Praag is a "frontline map" [like cp_granary or cp_well in tf2], and Reikland is a fast-response dynamic capture-and-hold (only 2 nodes are capturable at any time, and they randomly rotate every minute; kills award NO points).


-- Z.

[schild]

Doesn't really matter since no one is at Tier 4 and Tier 3 is a is the fucking devil!

[amiable]

Doesn't really matter since no one is at Tier 4 and Tier 3 is a is the fucking devil!

I played Temple of Isha a few times yesterday, it was actually a lot of fun... and I earned more reknown and xp than I did in Tor Anroc (but we absolutely rolled destro, they got like 1000xp each.)

[trias_e]

Ooh, I just had a good idea that helps two issues at once.  Have each scenario build up an xp bonus based on how long it takes before it pops, perhaps maxing at 3x xp at an hour.  Tired of doing Tor Anroc? (I sure as hell am) This will solve your problem.  People will be very motivated to spread out over the various scenarios.  And those at underpopulated tiers get a perma boost to scenario xp.

[amiable]

Ooh, I just had a good idea that helps two issues at once.  Have each scenario build up an xp bonus based on how long it takes before it pops, perhaps maxing at 3x xp at an hour.  Tired of doing Tor Anroc? (I sure as hell am) This will solve your problem.  People will be very motivated to spread out over the various scenarios.  And those at underpopulated tiers get a perma boost to scenario xp.

Mark Jacobs - steal this idea.  Please.

[schild]

I really don't think that's good enough. They need to cut the experience in tier 3 and 4, in half, at a minimum. If they worked so hard on the endgame structure, they wouldn't keep people out of it for so goddamn long.

[schild]

From the locked thread in the regular WAR forum:

Review Article Here

I'm hitting level 30 tonight, and I know some of you are into T4 already.  It seems that the issues listed in the review span across both T3 and T4 content. Honestly this has me worried because right now there is no way in hell I'd ever roll an ALT in this game with the leveling system as it currently stands.

My biggest game related concerns to date are:


1. Quests, Exp, Rewards
Massive exp drop off starting in T3. Quest rewards are way too low, and don't give out enough gear as you advance.  Public Quests in the higher tiers are usually done by very small groups, and stage II and III become virtually impossible. The influence needed to gain the rewards is also very high, and contributes to the idea that PQ's are a boring grind.

Imagine having to level an ALT in this game without scenario PVP exp rates as the game ages and new players aren't plentiful at lower tiers. I can't, and that's why I'll never roll an ALT unless they make PVE advancement better.

2. Gearing Out and Itemization

Renown gear is just terrible starting in T3, and the game forces you into long PQ grinds, PVE questing, or farming something like Mount Gunbad.  I'm looking at level 30 PVP gear for accessories with leading stats like +30 Initiative or +30 Ballistic skill and unimpressive resists. The gear just doesn't seem itemized correctly for most classes, and the PVE gear oddly enough does. Talismans are neat, but they can get very expensive on the auction house just for the temporary ones. But the PVP gear is so bad that even Talismans really can't help much.

General gearing out via Scenarios, RvR seems slow. I wish they could increase the frequency in which loot drops on player corpses.  Elf scenarios drop mostly elf based loot, same with the other races. I wish they would mix it up a little more considering each tier seems to have a favorite PQ and the others get abandoned.  When loot does drop its almost always green con stuff, and maybe its just me but tons of healer, engineer, mage junk drops while few tank weapons seem to drop.

3. Knockbacks and Roots vs diminishing returns

The more people hit level 30, the more these things seem to be out of control. We were fighting a lot of Zealots over the weekend, and they seemingly have some pulsing knockbacks. The result was that when I wasn't being chain rooted, a single Zealot (or maybe more..its hard to tell) could knock me back 3-5 in a single action.

Then there are the never ending roots. You can be chain rooted and they vastly overpower the skills used to mitigate them. I'm an Ironbreaker, so I get rooted and then hit Juggernaut to get out of it. I'll be rooted 5 more times before that skill even recycles.

I love the knockbacks and understand the need for roots, but there needs to be some serious consideration for some diminishing returns code or improvement of existing code if there is any.

4. Keep Upkeep

6 Gold per hour and 144 Gold per day for a keep that 6 people can ninja, and benefits that don't appear to be very tangible. I've been on record for a while as hating a siege system with Windows of Opportunity (Woo's) like Shadowbane and Age of Conan had, but I've also hated the fact that DAOC and now Warhammer Keeps change hands so easily. Part of that I think is because the guards in the outer/inner walls are so easy to take out compared to the mobs around the Keep Lord.

Bottom line is that it should take a real force, not 6 people, to take a keep, the upkeep should be more like 6 gold per day, and there should be some obvious benefits to owning one.

5. Scenarios and RvR

Scenarios that are popular are popular simply because of the exp/renown per hour potential.  The other scenarios force you to play the full time and if your team is getting rocked, your rewards are pretty bad.  The bauble and king of the hill scenarios are the most popular, so Mythic should consider that before making any adjustments.

RVR is picking up, but nowhere near as rewarding as just sticking with scenarios if you want to level via PVP with a decent rate of speed.

Mythic did it with DAOC with the RVR Zones, but maybe they should look at clustering scenarios so that you are queuing with a pool from multiple servers. That might help more scenarios pop, and might give a larger pool of players to still level via PVP with as the game ages.

Verdict

Much like AOC shined in the 1-40 range and lost its luster afterwards, Warhammer starts to smell a little once you move into Tier 3.  The way that PVE/PQ's and Gear are currently configured, leveling ALT's when the game is no longer new doesn't look appealing at all.

Considering AOC's great launch sales and then catastrophic retention rate it shows that a game has to get its act in gear much sooner than in the past or risk losing lots of people. The lower tiers are fun in WAR,but the real end game is in T4 so Mythic needs to really look at the issues that keep cropping up and figure out how to get people there better while also ensuring that people have the right amount of gear so they aren't insta kills when they show up.

We have folks in T4 and we have a T4 keep, but its slow since most of our server is still in T2-T3. Can anyone here give a good T4 overview?

[Numtini]

Public Quests in the higher tiers are usually done by very small groups, and stage II and III become virtually impossible

I've been playing somewhat off hours but I haven't seen anyone doing a PQ in all of T2 on either of my characters. The last couple I did on my RP were grinding out the first wave again and again and again. I don't even bother to look anymore and pretty much figured everyone else had given up as well.

[Hawkbit]

I don't think it's developer ego so much as just stupid decisions. I still fully plan on taking an alt very slowly from 1-40 reading all the quest text and whatnot, but Tryst is basically, get quest - don't read shit - go to red splotch - finish red splot objective - maximize damage output along the way - get to tier 4.

I haven't decided what my Just Fun alt will be from 1-40, and I may very well wait til they add in other classes. But right now I'm just GROWL SNAP SNARL STOP FUCKING AROUND WITH GOLD SPAMMERS AND DOUBLE MY FUCKING QUEST EXP AND HALF THE REQUIRED EXP. FUCK YOU ELVES, FUCK YOU AND YOUR FETCH QUESTS GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH. God are they lucky the PVP rocks my fucking face off.

This.  

Beta/PW gave me the impression that I'd roll a main and get it to 40 asap so that I can participate in guild stuff whenever I'm needed or whenever I want to play.  I assumed that the real game was going to start in the T4 bracket at 30.  So I rolled this toon and didn't give a shit about quests or anything... I'll do that on an alt one day.  

What I'm seeing, though, is that our guild is split with a few of the more 'hardcore' players in T4 and a shit-ton of others stuck in the 20s.  Look at the sheer amount of people in Bat Country stuck between 20-25. I know I feel stuck at 22... and I was at 20 ten days ago.  Now I'm segregated from a fair portion of the other people I was playing with and I'm finding less and less desire to log in to GRIND it out to T4.  T3 has been the only part of this game that is a deal-breaker for me.  Fuck an alt, I don't even want to grind through it on my main.  

I would propose:  Immediately reduce XP needed to level for all of T3 by 1/2 to 2/3 of the numbers where it is now.  If they absolutely feel the need to make us grind, let us do it all together in T4.  At least then we can all play together.  

[schild]

Well, in all of my rambling, of which there's more, much more, I still fully admit that I killed t3 in uhhh 2 days.

[trias_e]

I really don't think that's good enough. They need to cut the experience in tier 3 and 4, in half, at a minimum. If they worked so hard on the endgame structure, they wouldn't keep people out of it for so goddamn long.

I don't think they should simply cut the xp needed to level in half.  Regardless, whether they need to or don't need to, it's an unrealistic request.  At least, not for months when people are complaining about alt leveling speed.

Double quest XP, make it easier to find PQ groups across zones (perhaps allow the open group window to go across zones), increase scenario xp when they don't pop as often...I don't think you can ask for much more than that at this point.  Other than deleveling.  Which they refuse to do.

I've been playing somewhat off hours but I haven't seen anyone doing a PQ in all of T2 on either of my characters. The last couple I did on my RP were grinding out the first wave again and again and again. I don't even bother to look anymore and pretty much figured everyone else had given up as well.

Can't say I didn't see this one coming.  The only solution to this problem that I can see is scaling PQs to amount of players.  Making them soloable is a decent idea, although in t3 you have to kill like 200 mobs just to get to stage 2, so it's not soloable just out of soul-crushing boredom.  You have to wonder if Mythic simply has no foresight whatsoever beyond the immediate.  They did realize that having all of these problems become more and more prevalent when WoW gets closer and closer to releasing WoTLK was a bad idea, right?  They certainly saw these problems coming...I hope.

[Hawkbit]

Doubling quest XP in T3 won't make a lick of difference.  Maybe if it were 4-5X, maybe. 

It is essential for subscription retention that they get as many people as possible into T4 playing together by November 13th.

[Nebu]

It is essential for subscription retention that they get as many people as possible into T4 playing together by November 13th.

Excellent point.  I think that they would be well served to make getting to 40 easy for a cohesive group of 6 people.  It encourages participation in the endgame, it encourages rerolls (less pain along the way means having more alts to play in the endgame), and it encourages retention.  WAR should be about the endgame.  The way to the endgame becomes meaningless after the sales pitch which is the newbie experience.

[trias_e]

Doubling quest XP in T3 won't make a lick of difference.  Maybe if it were 4-5X, maybe. 

That's a bit extreme.  If you go to 4x xp, no one would ever run scenarios until they ran out of quests, which they probably wouldn't at 4x xp.  I guess if you want to boost scenario xp as well, that's fine.  I do agree that they need to get people through T3 faster, certainly.  But, I think the problem is that their end game isn't polished enough to have mass amounts of players in T4.  I doubt they nerfed xp before release just for shits and giggles. 

And again this comes back to some serious  potential in November.  If the people in T4 are all involved in buggy unfinished end game, and the people in T3 are in a crappy grind with not enough population to get consistent scenario pops...that's just double 


Randomly:  Why is this thread in the Bat Country forum instead of the general WAR forum?

[Nija]

In a way I'm happy that I'm on an Open RVR server because this problem doesn't exist there.

However, another problem does exist.

Destruction has a few entire GUILDS that contain level 40 people. They begin crushing your nutsack around level 25. They don't stop until you're 40.


See, what really stings with this is that every single one of the people that are 40, and have been for a week or more, got there by AE grinding PQs and getting the +20% killing streak bonus. They disabled that shit AFTER all these guys already did it, so we're stuck leveling at a glacial pace while getting fOWNED in scenarios the entire time.  So these fuck sticks have all the super good PQ rewards, they have their level 40 skills, and they have nothing better to do but stick 1-2 people in each Order PQ just to fuck it up for you.

Oh and they'll be attacking our city soon, to add insult to injury.


Edit: and this is my 4th fucking character. My small guild went destruction on a random server and destruction happened to outnumber order 4:1 after a week. So I got a guy to T3, another to 15ish then moved to the order side on the Praag server. I made a White Lion, got to level 13, then realized that our only healer plays super odd hours. So here I am as a level 18 Archmage...

[waylander]

In a way I'm happy that I'm on an Open RVR server because this problem doesn't exist there.

However, another problem does exist.

Destruction has a few entire GUILDS that contain level 40 people. They begin crushing your nutsack around level 25. They don't stop until you're 40.


See, what really stings with this is that every single one of the people that are 40, and have been for a week or more, got there by AE grinding PQs and getting the +20% killing streak bonus. They disabled that shit AFTER all these guys already did it, so we're stuck leveling at a glacial pace while getting fOWNED in scenarios the entire time.  So these fuck sticks have all the super good PQ rewards, they have their level 40 skills, and they have nothing better to do but stick 1-2 people in each Order PQ just to fuck it up for you.

Oh and they'll be attacking our city soon, to add insult to injury.

That's why guilds like LotD, Darkhand, Sinister, etc all rolled on the Core Ruleset.  We all trend towards open PVP environments, but Warhammer was designed with the Core Set in mind. Open PVP servers always suffer the same fate. They start off good until the uber PL's max out in levels and gear, then those same people camp and PK lower levels who have 0 chance to fight back, the server population dwindles as people get fed up, and eventually the place is a ghost town. Personally I'm tired of investing a lot of time into character development just to see a server turn into a ghost town in under 6 months.

Have fun, but the Core Ruleset is much better if you want to stay on a server that can maintain a healthy population over time.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I complain a lot about warhammer, so take it with a grain of salt but I simply can't log in for more than an hour or so. I'm 23 1/2 now and this grind is fucking killing me. Here's the thing, I'm not sure levelling in warhammer is even slower than wow and it's probably not.  I remember it took me ten days /played to get my rogue to 60 on original wow.

 What IS different though to me, is variety. First there's 20 less levels in warhammer so while hitting cap may be the same it 'feel's slower. Secondly variety in what you're doing. A level one greenskin is killing dwarfs, a level 10 greenskin is killing dwarfs, a level 20 greenskin is killing dwarfs ad infinitum. Oh sure the scenery changes a bit but there's this intangible blah feeling about it all.

But lakov, pve sucks, this game is about pvp!

You're right and pvp is indeed where the fun is at but rvr is non-existant save for quick zergs and not very rewarding for time spent. There's also sport pvp scenarios but guess what, only one of the ever pops with any regularity. Do you like tor anroc? i SURE hope so, since you'll be running it a few hundred times!

All in all warhammer just feels like a chore to me, from day one people keep exposing the virtues of the pvp endgame but while it may be a little piece of ambrosia,  I don't feel like wading through shit to get there.

[schild]

Once again, need I remind you, I took one weekend out of my life, gave it to Warhammer and went from 23 - 32 doing nothing but one scenario. Get in your own group if you're DPS and burn the shit out of that place. Now, you said you're a chosen in another thread.

Protip: Knock someone in the lava after hitting them a couple times and if they die in the lava, you'll get full exp from the kill. I was racking up between 15 and 25k on the board regularly while in all getting 30-50k from just killing exp (no, the scoreboard does not measure it correctly).

Edit: Yes, you are right about running Tor Anroc 300 times. Or whatever. But honestly, I'm pretty fucking (read: really fucking) good at PVP now.

[Righ]

Fuck an alt, I don't even want to grind through it on my main.  

See, that promotes the opposite reaction for me. Yay alts. For as long as there are other low level people around, I'll be happily leveling every class to 22. Isn't that the endgame?

[Nebu]

When I get bored, I just play an alt in Nordenwatch.  I think the whole game should be as fun as that scenario is for me.  Even with a level 1 toon, I can go in there and blow stuff up.  It's when you start adding in all the min/max and the absurd cc/skill tree abilities in the later tiers that the game starts become more about spreadsheets and gear than fun. 

[tazelbain]

I don't have a problem with tier 3 but I am not focused on leveling.  My main disappointment is a lack t3 tanks to scenario with.

[schild]

This is Tier 3. If you don't want this for 1/4 of your class levels, don't play WAR.

[kildorn]

I did T3 via mostly quest, since tor anroc without knockbacks is fucking annoying and stupid.

Sadly I'm into T4 content at 29 now, woo.

[Nebu]

This is Tier 3. If you don't want this for 1/4 of your class levels, don't play WAR.

Leveling should be a byproduct of having fun.  If the pvp scenarios are fun to play, then I don't care about my level and will log on to play them.  It's when the game reminds me that I need to be of a certain level or have certain gear/spec to have fun that it goes sour.  

Yes... I know this is an MMO and I should know better.  Hope is a tough thing to give up.  

[trias_e]

This is Tier 3. If you don't want this for 1/4 of your class levels, don't play WAR.

I totally disagree with you schild.  But I'm one of those idiots who play other scenarios for fun, do open rvr/pqs/gunbad for fun not loot, and just do whatever the hell I want without caring what level I am (well, except for power discrepancy in PvP, but thats not so bad at 25)

[schild]

I queued for everything available all the time. Whatever popped first, I played.

That was Tor Anroc, over and over and over.

And I did gunbad twice for fun and loot and did RvR for fun, hell the first time I led us to take keeps, where we took 4 of them, it was just because someone said they wanted to go shopping for renown gear before the city dinged for Sigmar's Hammer.

But none of that compares to getting 20-30k in Tor Anroc in terms of leveling.

[trias_e]

I actually queue just for temple/dam/cemetary/crater specifically not so I avoid TA so much as so I have time inbetween scenarios to do quests and grind influence.  I'm weird, I know.

(of course out of those, it's dam 80% of the time, crater 10%, temple 10%...so it's still not that diverse of an experience unfortunately.)

[schild]

To argue Tor Anroc, that scenario makes you really aware of your surroundings and who is alive, who is dead and who is running back. And how to track, flank, and organize yourselves. It separates the men from the elves, so to speak.

The cemetery and dam are just a mess. Isha was...god, a nightmare. And I never got to play Crater, much to my dismay.

[trias_e]

I don't think TA is a bad scenario, (certainly doesn't hurt that I get a knockback  )but I don't think it's better than any of the others (except for basin which is terrible).

YMMV.  Rather, YMHasV.

Isha supposedly has the best XP/hour.  I haven't played it enough to know for sure.