Heya <Bat Country>

[Lagrath]

Just wanted to say how much I'm enjoying this thread you guys made over at the other forums 


http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105739


Tough PvP rounds makes the best of us go crazy in the head. Imagine how we feel when stuff goes wrong when we have 40 minute ques!

Hope to see you guys more in the future in tier 3 (gonna be out for a week with no key!).

[rattran]

The post wasn't because of a bad round, it was because our entire team was dead in the first 30 secs from 2 sorcs. Massive damage in moments is not normal for the game.

We lose a fair amount in scenarios, but getting continually one shot by sorcs? Something isn't right.

[schild]

There's a difference between tough and broken.

We don't care about tough. Tough is why we invited the Six Mouths to join us on Ulthuan.

Broken is why people stop playing scenarios and eventually desub.

[Lagrath]

The max I could do in one hit with pvp gear nerfed from beta at level 21 would probably be 1100 or so on a 3-second fireball cast + another 80 or so from the 25% proc chance hitting then critting. Now, if I have a dot on you, or two dots, and then hit you with the above and get lucky and crit with everything AND I have my rank 1 morale ability up AND I get it off .5 seconds later THEN I could do 2,000 damage, because the moral hits for around 650 instantly at max intell gear and max level. That would be close to 2,000. But that's once in a blue moon.

Edit: HOWEVER I always roll alone. Now, my ranged AOE crits for 700-1050. If there are TWO sorcerors in the same spot working together and BOTH cast at the EXACT same time and the 3-second targets at nearby AND the targets don't run away from each other or out of LOS AND BOTH of the sorcerors crit with the ability then you could see 1400-2,000 hitting everyone within 30 feet of the target every 3 seconds. It still shouldn't 1-shot anyone as I had at level 21 3,600 HP.

In order to get smashed like that you have to play against two very skilled and very coordinated enemy sorcerors who get lucky on the hits/LOS/running out of range, AND you guys have to be playing very badly (ie no melee harassing the sorcerors and everyone on your team clumping together like dummies and not running around to mess with casting issues).

[schild]

I wish Rattran had a screenshot. He was hit for 3200+ the moment he got to the murderball area. No one has morale build-up fast enough for what happened today.

[Lagrath]

Well I am making a tier 2 pvp video this week so you'll be able to see what ranged AOE looks like from a sorceror's point of view and exactly what the numbers are.

Also I forgot to mention above that both sorcerors have to come to the fight already maxed out at full dark magic which means they had to instant AOE for 10 seconds before they arrived and get their AP points back, and both sorcerors are probably doing like 350 damage to themselves every other spell they cast, so in reality you're actually probably fighting 3-4 people in that AOE-pushed because they were smart enough to bring pocket healers with them.

[schild]

I understand that you're not getting it, and that's cool. You had to be in this scenario to see the wipe that's happened. Hell, even the Six Mouths leader said he'd never seen that. I've never seen a Bright Wizard in my guild do it either.

It's this simple:
If it's not an exploit, it's broken.
If it is an exploit, should've been fixed in beta.
If it was an exploit and it was deemed by design to ignore the fuck up, doesn't change that it's an exploit.
In cases like this where things are COMPLETELY AWRY, I will fuck the other guy doing it until they love me.

I'm a cruel, cruel motherfucker when people take the fun out of something. Basically, you had to be there, otherwise you're talking out of your ass.

[Lagrath]

I understand that you're not getting it, and that's cool. You had to be in this scenario to see the wipe that's happened. Hell, even the Six Mouths leader said he'd never seen that. I've never seen a Bright Wizard in my guild do it either.

It's this simple:
If it's not an exploit, it's broken.
If it is an exploit, should've been fixed in beta.
If it was an exploit and it was deemed by design to ignore the fuck up, doesn't change that it's an exploit.
In cases like this where things are COMPLETELY AWRY, I will fuck the other guy doing it until they love me.

I'm a cruel, cruel motherfucker when people take the fun out of something. Basically, you had to be there, otherwise you're talking out of your ass.

I know infinitely more about sorcerors and bright wizards than you do (and most else about WAR pvp numbers going by your comments in the other thread- "50,000 in 6 minutes? In all my time playing I've never seen that before!"). I put up a screenshot of me putting out more than double that number that you were sure was exploiting at the 6 minute mark. I have 100 gigs of fraps on my PC from the last two days of me wasting whole order teams with proper sorceror AOE exactly of the kind you're complaining about. I also know that it is quite possible for two sorcs/bright wizards to hit an enemy team for 2,200+ at a time with lucky crits, and that two of the class together can get 2,500-3,000 on a person if both get very lucky and hit at the same time and more with morals.

I also know that you have to be completely ignorant of how the class works or how your guild is supposed to respond to their presence in a scenario if you guys are in a position to all be killed by them in the first place. A single low-level witch hunter can easily stealth to BWs/sorcs and shut them down. If you guys spread out, you'll cut the aoe damage to a trickle. If you focus fire sorcs/BWs with ANYTHING you can kill them easily because they are the most fragile classes in the entire game. Not to mention the sorcs/BWs are actually a 3-4 man+ team because the AOE burn requires heal bombing from the backlash, to say nothing of the return fire.

If you guys are getting smoked by that desto guild because they have skilled sorcerors and good coordination and you guys are too dumb to spread out or counter their casting effectively, or your bright wizards have no clue how to easily break 50k-60k+ in a scenario longer than 8 minutes, then you need to accept that you deserved to lose and are going to continue to get beaten by better teams. If you guys had hit Sinless in the last two days we would have beaten you just as fast because of individual player skill and good group coordination. The problem is inexperience with WAR on Bat Country's end- Grudge smashes the same desto groups sometimes and Crucio the BW regularly gets close or over 100,000 damage even when his team is getting smoked.

It's not a question of "fun", "mean", "exploiting", etc. The game and the classes are amazingly balanced. You guys just had a rude awakening of what some of the teams and classes out there are capable in the hands of people who set it up for use at full potential. Unless you can show me a fraps or a screenshot of something blatantly impossible everything you've posted here and elsewhere so far pretty much directs 100% to you not knowing much about WAR yet.

edit: and I can almost promise you that the people who bulldozered your team stacked +intelligence to the expense of most every other stat, skipped out on other tactics for the +intelligence one, and spent ALL their mastery points in the AOE tree.

[schild]

The game and the classes are amazingly balanced.

You should've stopped before that.

[Lagrath]

The game and the classes are amazingly balanced.

You should've stopped before that.

Ok true Iron Breakers are a little OP but it's only really abused with highly organized order teams, of which there are thankfully not as many yet. And true the Bright Wizard's dot tree is still overpowered despite the devs promising in beta to revamp it, but it's not as bad as it once was.

But otherwise the balance is pretty good! Honestly, no other order or desto guilds are in the forums complaining about anything. Between your blatantly incorrect foot-in-mouth comments about damage numbers and WAR mechanics to your whining about getting smoked and class balance you really are making it look to outsiders like me like Bat Country is fast on its way to becoming the Good Squad of Order.

[schild]

So, you see the imba on the Order side and we see it on the destro side. Awesome.

Bad move with that angle, hombre. You've walked into a horrible, horrible place.

It is dark, you are likely to be eaten by someone who is not a mouthbreather.

[Ingmar]

Sorcs will be nerfed, full stop. They will take BWs with them most likely.

This is a little song and dance I've seen repeat itself hundreds of times over the years in MMOs. Something is clearly broken, and everyone but the people who play the class in question can see it. Usually they use code words like "our class is just the *most balanced*." Well I have news for you, kid, you're not the first one to sing this song. I still water my lawn with berserker tears from the DAOC left axe nerf. And let me tell you, when Mythic nerfs things, they don't do it by half measures.

You are too busy swinging your epeen around making a PVP video (a T2 pvp video at that, let us know when your awesome level 29 twink BG video is coming out for WoW, I am sure it will be incredibly informative) to have even a shred of perspective on this.

[Fordel]

See, that's what I miss from DaoC!

Someone go ninja a Relic now 

[Ingmar]

No relics! 

I dunno, maybe this guy will get lucky and his nerf will only be as bad as the one smite clerics received. 

[Kirth]

But guys he knows everything about sorc's and WAR pvp numbers!!!!!   

Obviously being able to 1 and 2 shot people in a game where you can solo wail on someone for 20 seconds or more and still not kill this is working as intended.

[amiable]

(Blizz forum like crap).
 

You are new here so I will try to say this nicely (for Bat Country).  You seem to be confusing the issues.  No one is doubting that a group of Sorceresses focusing fire can put out a serious hurting and do substantial damage, especially if they coordinate moral abilities.  that is not the issue here.  The issue is 2 sorceresses completely decimating an opposing team of similarly leveled players in a matter of seconds doing upward of 3200 damage on a single hit (which by the way, should not be possible, even on a morale ability, at level 20).  Especially tanks.  Having seen tanks in action all throughout beta if you have 2 guys who can focus down an appropriately leveled shield-bearing tank in less than 10 seconds, something is seriously amiss.

Something is awry and it is one of several things:

A.  An exploit - Perhaps someone discovered a way to stack zealot buffs, or a PvE buff, or maybe certain potions/consumables stack that shouldn't.  If this is the case then your guildmates are exploiting jerks who suck the fun out of games, and you should kick the retards on principle or be forever labeled an asshat.

B.  A legitimate but broken mechanic - Perhaps if one devotes all of their efforts into stacking int gear you can push a casters DPS to the point that they can one-shot people.  If so, good for you for discovering this mechanic and enjoy the incoming nerf that will be headed your way momentarily.

C.  Schild is a whiny @#$%^@ who needs to grow a sac, stop exaggerating and lern2play.  You are 1337 d00dz who just know how to correctly focus fire,  Hmm...  how do I say this without being insulting.  Schild runs a respected community focused on game development that is frequented by developers across multiple genres, he is not given to hyperbole and has a pretty intimate understanding of how these games work.  You are a nobody who has come onto these boards and, having no understanding of who frequents them, started waving your e-peen around pretending to be an expert on all things Warhammer.  Then, instead of trying to engage the point, you throw out a bunch of unrelated crap about Sorceress DPS numbers because you think this board is populated by 14 year old VNboard mouth breathers who are going to take your bullshit seriously.   

I think Schild wins the Pepsi Credibility Challenge, don't you?

[kildorn]

PBAE is an issue in T2 because group and AE healing aren't buffed up yet, but the PBAE abilities are pretty solid. The backlash tactic for both BW and Sorc will be mauled (seriously, nobody cares if you're getting hit for 350 every cast if you're doing 175 to everyone nearby at the same time. So you need 2 people in PBAE range to break even, what horrible efficiency!)

But yeah, pbae bombs get a lot easier to deal with, I expect it to get a moderate cooldown anyways, or DM/Comb to get mauled in it's ability to be pre-built. But at lower levels, casters have too much survivability, combined with a rather amazingly broken AE root.

[Lagrath]

C.  Schild is a whiny @#$%^@ who needs to grow a sac, stop exaggerating and lern2play.  You are 1337 d00dz who just know how to correctly focus fire,  Hmm...  how do I say this without being insulting.  Schild runs a respected community focused on game development that is frequented by developers across multiple genres, he is not given to hyperbole and has a pretty intimate understanding of how these games work.  You are a nobody who has come onto these boards and, having no understanding of who frequents them, started waving your e-peen around pretending to be an expert on all things Warhammer.  Then, instead of trying to engage the point, you throw out a bunch of unrelated crap about Sorceress DPS numbers because you think this board is populated by 14 year old VNboard mouth breathers who are going to take your bullshit seriously.   

I think Schild wins the Pepsi Credibility Challenge, don't you?

1. No one in the WA forums posted a thread whining about sorcs/bws when they got rolled against an organized group against Schild. It's just you guys bitching and moaning.
2. It's obvious from everything he's posted that he didn't have any experience with WAR until a few days. He barrels loudly into the forums accusing another guild of exploiting, and everyone points out immediately that if 50,000 damage in 6 minutes was so far above what he'd seen before that meant he'd only played total scrubs up to that point.
3. The entire thread over there is filled with posts from people from both factions, many different guilds, and mostly none-BW/sorceror classes essentially calling Schild an uninformed idiot new to Warhammer Online and confirming that the problem was on his end with poor organization and a poor grasp of the class mechanics, not in-game balance issues.

Since your guild apparently doesn't have a single halfway competent bright wizard (judging from Bat Country's reaction and schild's comments), I think he should roll a sorceror or a bright wizard so he can see for himself how "easy" and "broken" the class is and exactly what kinds of circumstances, luck, character builds, gear, and individual skill it takes to produce the kinds of results that squashed your team.

Whining that a sorceror specced completely for, geared completely for, backed up by guildmates for, and trained in AOE or single target DPS is too much damage and are OMYGODEMAILTHEDEVS broken is like going into the forums and accusing another organized and skilled guild group of "exploiting" because that Iron Breaker with good gear, lots of play experience, another tank Guarding him, and 3 pocket healers is too hard to kill when he has the flag...

[amiable]

(more irrelevant e-peening crap)

Random internet dude is angry.  Please alert the press. 

Also acknowledge his amazing grasp of Warhammer mechanics.  *Shakes Fist* ACKNOWLEDGE IT!!!! 

[schild]

So, by proxy you're saying The Six Mouths doesn't have a halfway competent Sorc because Morsk said he'd never seen that before either? Just wondering.

I've never seen *anything* like that - is this the most effective way to seek resolution, though?

But a bunch of guilds I've never heard of have been pulling this shit off, I think I made the right decision in calling it as I see it. Also, you sound more insane than me. But that's neither here not there, just wanted to let you know. Stop typing so much and saying so little.

[Lagrath]

So, by proxy you're saying The Six Mouths doesn't have a halfway competent Sorc because Morsk said he'd never seen that before either? Just wondering.

I've never seen *anything* like that - is this the most effective way to seek resolution, though?

But a bunch of guilds I've never heard of have been pulling this shit off, I think I made the right decision in calling it as I see it. Also, you sound more insane than me. But that's neither here not there, just wanted to let you know. Stop typing so much and saying so little.

Morsk has apparently never seen his own guild's standard-bearer/sorceror play, because I've seen that guy do damage like that.

There's 64 replies in that thread. There are only two posts that aren't telling you you're completely wrong are 1) that post from Morsk and 2) some guy from your guild who wasn't even there but is sticking up for you on principle. And Morks is a part of a forum megaguild that has a few great players like Argus and that sorceror I mentioned, but is big enough that that Morks can easily spend most of his time pvping with players of totally variable ability. He should ask Argus sometime because when that guy was still in tier 2 I saw him break those numbers that Morsk has "never seen anything like" over and over as a marauder.

[schild]

Like I said, I'm not really worried about it anymore, BW and Sorcs are going to get hit with the nerfbat so hard, they'll see the past as if it's the present. After seeing those other screens that were posted, it's pretty much absolutely guaranteed. But you saying it's balanced is just clownshoes.

[amiable]

Morsk has apparently never seen his own guild's standard-bearer/sorceror play, because I've seen that guy do damage like that.

There's 64 replies in that thread. There are only two posts that aren't telling you you're completely wrong are 1) that post from Morsk and 2) some guy from your guild who wasn't even there but is sticking up for you on principle. And Morks is a part of a forum megaguild that has a few great players like Argus and that sorceror I mentioned, but is big enough that that Morks can easily spend most of his time pvping with players of totally variable ability. He should ask Argus sometime because when that guy was still in tier 2 I saw him break those numbers that Morsk has "never seen anything like" over and over as a marauder.

Is your ignorance a hobby or do you consider it a vocation?  

1.  No one here gives a rats ass what the mouthbreathers on WA/VN think.  They are by and large complete morons.  
2.  "50k damage in 6 minutes" wasn't the concern.  3200+ points of damage per spell was the concern.  The screenshot was put up to be illustrative of the second point.  Why can't you understand this?  

You seem to be able to form complete sentences so I assume you can read, so I just have to assume that you are an idiot.  

[schild]

To his benefit, I will say damage was going so fast no one could even get the screenshot of the high damage stuff. It's hard when people are dropping nearly every second. Whatever. Next time it happens, and I wouldn't be shocked if it did, I will get a screenshot.

Too bad those two guys have probably hit 22 by now. With that kind of EXP on Mourkain, I sure hope so.

[Lagrath]

Is your ignorance a hobby or do you consider it a vocation?  
  
"50k damage in 6 minutes" wasn't the concern.

 

"6 Minutes in.
500 to 29.
Maddcow: 54,519 damage, 38 kills, 0 deaths.
Valkyrie: 48,681 Damage, same stuff.

Whoever they targeted died instantly. Valkyrie just wasn't AS GOOD at exploiting. We're talking THOUSANDS of damage per hit immediately. Look at the exp. Comeon now."

Dumbass. Learn to read your own guildmate's comments before flaming someone about them.

3200+ points of damage per spell was the concern.  

Everyone that's been listening to your admin's frothing at the mouth has been waiting eagerly for screenshots of this. Apparently the class is broken and they get hits like this all the time and yet no one from any guild on Ulthuan has ever seen anything close to it, either produced by you guys or done by bws/sorcs in their own guilds.

You guys are full of shit and got rolled by a team that stacked a class. Everyone you've complained to has told you that you guys can easily counter what you've gone up against. But Schild loudly put his foot in his mouth and when everyone called on obviously not having the least experience with PvP in WAR he got backed into the corner instead of manning up, and now he's dragging all his guildmates with him who are determined to stick with their guy right or wrong. All you're doing is ruining your guild's reputation and making everybody you play with and against think you're just another forum-zerg guild filled with unskilled MMO idiots, like the Order version of Good Squad.

[MrHat]

 

The same popcorn left over from last generic-MMO.

[Abelian75]

I like how you were vaguely pretending to be friendly or something in your first post.

[schild]

The same popcorn left over from last generic-MMO.

Don't make me comment about you being a statistic, wiseass.

As for Lagrath, I'm still trying to figure out how this is a normal thing, yea I realize people on WA were saying it was, but how can I run hundreds of scenarios and have run into it, oh, ONCE. It's staggeringly ridiculous that the odds are this low. If that sort of damage can be achieved on a constant basis, obvious signs point to this happening often. Which I'm just not buying. Sure, it's possible it's only known to people on the forums, which comprises of very little of any site, so I suppose it's possible (going to buy lottery ticket kthx). But then, this guys posts are filled with more e-peen than Bang Bros. So I'm not sure how to respond. Honestly, it's hard to type with this much digital cock in my face.

[kildorn]

Actually, you can't counter stacked casters PBAEing with guard and a pocket healer at tier 2. Nobody's got their healing debuffs or silences yet. Just FYI, anyone saying that has a t2 counter is full of shit. It's strong forever, but in higher tiers people get better AE heals, silences, and better debuffs to deal with it. At lower tiers, healing and casting are both still pretty much not counterable beyond overwhelming force, and with PBAE that means overwhelming ranged force, which can't stay at range due to tanks not being able to survive it yet, either. See the issue?

Anyways, this is pretty normal. Random jackass so offended and bothered that he'd make an account on another web forum in order to discuss something here instead of where he read and discussed it already. Welcome to pvp MMOs!

[amiable]

(I has e-peen)

I think we have found Warhammer's Grunk!

[Rasix]

Board warrioring.

Swell.   

[Stunner]

10  years of hopping from one MMO's to the next, I still find nothing better then reading this kind of debate. It owns who we want as the next presidant down right. Sorry Schild had pointed me to come over to register and well I got lost reading this.

[Sjofn]

See, that's what I miss from DaoC!

Someone go ninja a Relic now 

Fuckin' play this game, Fordel. WE NEED YOU.

[Lagrath]

As for Lagrath, I'm still trying to figure out how this is a normal thing, yea I realize people on WA were saying it was, but how can I run hundreds of scenarios and have run into it, oh, ONCE. It's staggeringly ridiculous that the odds are this low. If that sort of damage can be achieved on a constant basis, obvious signs point to this happening often. Which I'm just not buying. Sure, it's possible it's only known to people on the forums, which comprises of very little of any site, so I suppose it's possible (going to buy lottery ticket kthx). But then, this guys posts are filled with more e-peen than Bang Bros. So I'm not sure how to respond. Honestly, it's hard to type with this much digital cock in my face.

Well if you want I can send you some of my footage from the last few days unedited (ie taking out the parts where I get owned and drop dead). You can see exactly what kind of numbers the AOE produces, what kind of range I need to be in, how much damage the backlash gets, how fast I take damage from any class hitting me, the splash damage of the AOE, how many pocket healers I need, how I waste 3.5 seconds of fighting/casting time if my "anchor" runs around the corner or out of my short casting range and thus cancels out my spell, how people shut me out of the fight with good melee skirmishers or archmage drains, etc.

Really I think you just need to see HOW the process works and you would be a lot less upset about it. Only people who know exactly what they are going to be doing beforehand and come into a scenario with perfect preparation are going to do anything that you guys would notice in a fight- that's why you see the majority of sorcerors/BWs not doing more or much more damage than a marauder or a shadow warrior in a scenario, but you see SOME people playing those classes scattered equally across most every guild, server, and faction consistently getting those results. WAR is a great game in that higher levels of skill and class control are very rewarding with the mechanics and abilities, but the sorceror/BW rank up exponentially on that scale as you get closer to max proficiency, and their results are much flashier on the charts than, say, a really awesome Iron Breaker or Zealot/Runepriest (even though they can tilt a fight just as much if not more so!).

[cevik]

I read this thread and I laughed..

Then I decided to quote myself:

1)  Balance.  There hasn't even been a token effort put into balance and EVERYONE knows that things are out of whack.  I played several scenarios over the weekend where the order side was 8 or 9 bright wizards.  There is no game balance at all at this point, nor has there been any apparent effort into balancing the game.  When player versus player is your bread and butter, balance should be a primary concern, not an afterthought.