The Elder Scrolls Online

[Venkman]

Do you think mmo developers make the same mistakes each time out of spite or is it really that hard to fix?  If you're in closed testing for too long where only employees, friends and the most hardcore fans you've invited can play you won't get enough criticism.  These starter islands must have been the first ones played and the most tested so how on earth didn't they realize they kinda suck?  Not until it had a wider release for the stress tests and people started complaining did it dawn on them.

I think it's development interia and a combination of your first and second sentence. It's very easy to convince yourself you're on the right path when nobody is telling you you're wrong.

It's also very easy to do that until way after the point you can make substantial changes. I mean seriously, a month before launch, their only option was to go nuclear on the starter islands. So you can totally imagine the kind of internal conversations they had:

But it's all done!
But it sucks and we're losing the argument with the public
But we spent all this time/money/people on it!
But. It. Sucks. And. We're. Losing. The. Argument. With. The. Public.

I'm just curious if anyone will be around for an internal post mortem or if the dev team is already in the process of scattering so the live team catches all the heat (and can hide behind the "we didn't build it").

[Fordel]

Nah, it's just spite.

[Paelos]

I'm just curious if anyone will be around for an internal post mortem or if the dev team is already in the process of scattering so the live team catches all the heat (and can hide behind the "we didn't build it").

It was viable to cut bait on this project 18 months ago when we were saying it was a turd. They decided not to do that because it would mean shutting down the whole studio that existed just for making this disaster. In the process they've likely wasted $50M at least.

Bethesda won't let anybody get away from this clean when it ends up flopping. They distanced themselves from the beginning by not doing it themselves, and letting Zenimax take the hit. Bethesda will bury them so it doesn't destroy the franchise.

[rk47]

Overall, the game is incredibly deep and if you only gave it a couple of hours before deciding it's boring, then you've done yourself a disservice.

A TOAST MY BROTHERS!

[rk47]

Just ask rk47 what mods he uses.

Then put those on your list of mods you never want to install.

[Margalis]

In FFXI when you run into another player they block you, but if you push against them for a second or so you go through them. This makes it feel like the people have weight without allowing for griefing.

FFXI is like ten years old now.

[Nija]

Make PVP-player-blocking a skill that drains stamina.

Give a player a 'blocked' debuff or something along those lines.

Give that debuff the same diminishing returns that you would give a mez or stun.

Carry on.

[Trippy]

In FFXI when you run into another player they block you, but if you push against them for a second or so you go through them. This makes it feel like the people have weight without allowing for griefing.

FFXI is like ten years old now.

UO had something like that too.

[Cyrrex]

It seems to me that making design decisions for your MMO game based on the extremely unlikely occurrence of giant 100v100v100 pvp battles (or whatever they are trying to pull off) is complete and utter folly.  As much as some of us think we want to participate in such events, it is simply not going to happen with any frequency in the real world. 

[satael]

It seems to me that making design decisions for your MMO game based on the extremely unlikely occurrence of giant 100v100v100 pvp battles (or whatever they are trying to pull off) is complete and utter folly.  As much as some of us think we want to participate in such events, it is simply not going to happen with any frequency in the real world. 

I'm sure GW2 thought that large-scale pvp wasn't likely to happen that often and the culling in rvr was just fine the way it was when the game launched... 

[MediumHigh]

SPVP failed to carry a lot of the slack. So WvW pretty much served as the go to for anyone interested in pvp. If Anet gave the PVP crowd what it wanted from the beginning WvW would have been left to the pubs and people interested in hardcore rvr, which is a relatively small number considering the issues that generally arrive with a 24 hour format.

[Falconeer]

Seriously, GW2 showed what many already knew: that as long as it is consensual and equalized (all chars boosted to max level) there is and there was a market for large scale open world PvP, sieges and the likes. Not saying any AAA title could survive just on that, but it's a feature that has been succesful in GW2 and on some servers still forced you in a queue many months after launch.

You know what will prevent the same thing from happening in TESO? Monthly fee.

[MediumHigh]

And PVD

[Cyrrex]

That there is one recent game out there that managed to pull off some large scale PvP does not mean that it makes sense for all other developers to attempt the same thing.  There is a very finite audience for that shit, and you are fooling yourselves if you think otherwise.  I have no doubt that the internal sales pitch for TESO is banking on a million subs or more (they are insane, obviously), and there is no way even a tenth of that mythical audience is going to regularly get into large scale PvP.  Not even if it is "good", whatever the fuck that means.

[Falconeer]

Look, TESO didn't do massive three way PvP because GW2 did it and it was popular. They did it because Matt Firor of DAoC is the lead, and he probably convinced some people that there was an audience for that way before they even knew about GW2 (Development started in 2009). It's OK if they can't make collision detection in massive battles if everything else is fun, but it's still a bummer. Also, since you probably didn't read my previous post:

Not saying any AAA title could survive just on that, but it's a feature that has been succesful in GW2 and on some servers still forced you in a queue many months after launch.

Meaning there is enough of an audience to consider it a viable addition to your new MMORPG. And GW2 was pulling large numbers because that audience is bigger than you think and maybe bigger than they thought. The reasons numbers started to fall were a) the dreaded culling monster. When they fixed it too many had already left. And b) lack of metagame and long term motivation, and "matches" were too often pointless and lopsided.

TESO on the other hand is putting this extra featrue behind a pay wall so chances are it will just never take off.

[Cyrrex]

Sure, you may well be right about that.  My point, however, is that you shouldn't make decisions on things like collision detection based on the unlikely event that you are going to attract a bazillion hardcore large scale PvP fanatics (and that they will actually stick around).  When 95% or more of a player's time spent in game is PvE, then you build it around what makes PvE fun.  If they don't make the PvE fun, then the game dead in the water from the word go.

[Paelos]

Make PVP-player-blocking a skill that drains stamina.

Give a player a 'blocked' debuff or something along those lines.

Give that debuff the same diminishing returns that you would give a mez or stun.

Carry on.

Honestly, actual body blocking and collision detection is one of the things I think would make tanking more fun. Right now it's about esoteric button mashing and older than dirt taunt mechanics. What if it was actually about holding a line with several melee players to keep your healers/casters safe behind you?

[Falconeer]

Exactly. I could quote better examples but to summon one I am sure many remember around here, Warhammer Online did it.

[Tmon]

TESO on the other hand is putting this extra featrue behind a pay wall so chances are it will just never take off.

Aren't they also putting it behind a level wall?  The thing I liked about GW2 was that you could PVP almost as soon as you created your character.  Sure your level 1 boosted to 80 character is not nearly the equal of a fully leveled and geared out 80 but you can still join the zerg and contribute something.  Buying a box, paying a sub, playing for 5-7 hours to get to the 'fun' and level blocked PVP just seem so outdated to me, that I can't fathom anyone thinking the model makes business sense in today's market.

[Draegan]

Collision was one of the things I posted on the beta forums that I wanted, along with a better starting experience. So, it's good they finally addressed that. It's silly they didn't address it with players for PvP purposes. The idea that a player can just run right through you is moronic.

I still don't think the combat is fixable at this stage, nor will the first person view work.

First person will never work in games like this. As far as collision in PVP, it's got to be a performance thing.

In pve I played the beta in 1st person.  Not since EQ have I done that.  Gives me the Elder Scrolls feel.  Now pvp or some instance?  Yeah I'll go to over the shoulder but you're way off base saying it will never work.  I imagine there are many folks like me who will pve in 1st person.

I'm not saying people won't do it, I'm saying those people will be akin to window lickers and keyboard turners. The game is not designed for it. It's hard to not stand in the fire, if you can't see the fire. Your Field of View needs be much wider in group situations.

I mean you can do it, but you're gimping yourself. If you don't mind doing that and you enjoy the experience, more power to you.

[Falconeer]

TESO on the other hand is putting this extra featrue behind a pay wall so chances are it will just never take off.

Aren't they also putting it behind a level wall?  The thing I liked about GW2 was that you could PVP almost as soon as you created your character.  Sure your level 1 boosted to 80 character is not nearly the equal of a fully leveled and geared out 80 but you can still join the zerg and contribute something.  Buying a box, paying a sub, playing for 5-7 hours to get to the 'fun' and level blocked PVP just seem so outdated to me, that I can't fathom anyone thinking the model makes business sense in today's market.

You can get to the frontiers at Level 10 in TESO and as in GW2 you get boosted to max level. Supposedly level 10 should be early enough but, I agree with you, turns out it takes more than many can stomach. Based on the most recent beta patch they are speeding up the first ten levels so maybe people will be able to experience PvP a little sooner.

[Threash]

It seems to me that making design decisions for your MMO game based on the extremely unlikely occurrence of giant 100v100v100 pvp battles (or whatever they are trying to pull off) is complete and utter folly.  As much as some of us think we want to participate in such events, it is simply not going to happen with any frequency in the real world. 

Hmm, it is actually what happens 99% of the time.  Small fights is what is incredibly rare.

[Ghambit]

Make PVP-player-blocking a skill that drains stamina.

Give a player a 'blocked' debuff or something along those lines.

Give that debuff the same diminishing returns that you would give a mez or stun.

Carry on.

Honestly, actual body blocking and collision detection is one of the things I think would make tanking more fun. Right now it's about esoteric button mashing and older than dirt taunt mechanics. What if it was actually about holding a line with several melee players to keep your healers/casters safe behind you?

That's actually what I loved about AoC; especially playing Conqueror.  The game revolved around positional tactics. 

[Nebu]

That's actually what I loved about AoC; especially playing Conqueror.  The game revolved around positional tactics. 

All I remember about AoC was the "jousting" of melee due to the combos.  I never played PvP once that issue was fixed.

[sam, an eggplant]

My fondest memory of AoC was this legendary video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-rl3RPC_Mw

Warning, loud yakety sax music.

[Goreschach]

My fondest memory of AoC was this legendary video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-rl3RPC_Mw

Warning, loud yakety sax music.

That seems like only yesterday.

[Threash]

I think a good compromise for collision detection in pvp would be to turn it on for shield users and leave it off for everyone else.  This lets people actually be tanks in pvp and do things like hold the line or clog a choke point while not being as bandwidth intensive as turning it on for everyone.

[Riggswolfe]

So I got a beta invite again, this time with "bring your buddy". I can't remember if previous Betas had that but it sort of stinks of desperation to me. Not to mention, why have a beta such a short time before release?

[Rendakor]

To show off the new and improved starting experience?

[sam, an eggplant]

Actually, this beta doesn't have the new starting stuff. It's purely a stress test. They talk about more betas too, so I would expect at least one in March.

[Tannhauser]

So I got a beta invite again, this time with "bring your buddy". I can't remember if previous Betas had that but it sort of stinks of desperation to me. Not to mention, why have a beta such a short time before release?

But it comes with a monkey!

http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2014/02/25/new-beta-invites--february-25th

[Paelos]

That's insulting.

[Fabricated]

So I got a beta invite again, this time with "bring your buddy". I can't remember if previous Betas had that but it sort of stinks of desperation to me. Not to mention, why have a beta such a short time before release?

But it comes with a monkey!

http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2014/02/25/new-beta-invites--february-25th

Spoilers: The Monkey

[rk47]

So I got a beta invite again, this time with "bring your buddy". I can't remember if previous Betas had that but it sort of stinks of desperation to me. Not to mention, why have a beta such a short time before release?

But it comes with a monkey!

http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2014/02/25/new-beta-invites--february-25th

Spoilers: The Monkey

Fixed.

[Paelos]