Dr. Who

[Khaldun]

Well, we've already been around the block on this, but about half of Tom Baker's run is pretty crap, when his performance started to run away with the show and JNT started driving everything else into the ground.

Tennant's first season I'd agree had pound-for-pound the highest quality of individual episodes. I wasn't overwhelmed by The Idiot's Lantern, I thought Impossible Planet/Satan Pit should probably have been a single episode, Fear Her is pretty crap, and the Rose Tyler-loves-the-Doctor companion plot got a bit irritating at times.

I'm just not seeing how Moffat nuWho is so dramatically different from this that it warrants viewing it as utter worthless crap or whatever invective in that ballpark seems necessary.

[HaemishM]

Stories which are logically inconsistent even within the silly structure of the Doctor Who universe. Stories whose resolutions MAKE NO GODDAMN SENSE or use some kind of Deus Ex Machina to get the Doctor out of an impossible situation (crack in time wiping out the weeping angels is a good example of that).

[Khaldun]

The Who universe isn't quite as shoddy in world-building terms as Star Trek in its many incarnations, but it's pretty close. Just sticking with old Who and leaving out Paul McGann, there's a shitfuck of stuff that doesn't add up at all and about a zillion and one deus ex machina. RTD nuWho doesn't hold up too much better, what with the Daleks having escaped the inescapable Time War four or five times, the Time Lords once; the Reapers appearing just once in response to a paradox and never appearing again or being mentioned again; etc.

[Ironwood]

 

[Khaldun]

Hey, I understand nerd rage when you feel you have a clearly better idea about what to do with a particular universe, character or show that has a lot of potential. There is a totally better set of Star Wars prequels I have in my mind, and I know exactly what should have happened in the Matrix sequel and I am totally willing to bore the shit out of someone unwise enough to set me off about either. And with Who, if John Nathan Turner were still alive today, I'd be perfectly happy if the Iranian clergy declared a fatwa against him; Matthew Jacobs should be kicked in the nuts for the script to the McGann Who movie . I'm really just not seeing it with Moffat's Who. There's stuff I don't like (both characterization and plotting), stuff I like a lot, and stuff I'm indifferent to. Doesn't trigger nerdragery in me at all, though.

[Ironwood]

We've done this.  Countless times.  We've pointed out what's wrong with Moffat.  It's abundantly clear.  It's nothing to DO with Canon or the series, or the authenticity either.  It now transcends that.

It's about almost every single episode having no logical consistency whatsoever and always involves 'magic fairy dust' to make everything right.

Moffat has, on every occasion, stated categorically that he writes Dr Who as a Fairy Tale.

This is fundamentally wrong on every level.

You don't mind it.  That's fine.  I do.  That's also fine.  You watch it.  That's cool.  I don't.  That's fine.

Let's not do this shit ever again please.  It's really silly watching you fail to grasp it every time.

[Soln]

Moffat has, on every occasion, stated categorically that he writes Dr Who as a Fairy Tale.

Agree with everything you've said. 

For me, it's less fairy tale and more broadway musical or pantomine.  All the over-the-top faces, screaming, plot twists involving gender/family/relationships.  Pretty stock musical hall stuff.   And awful.  Just awful.

[Ironwood]

Also, he's a very bad leader.  It is a FACT that the series is over budget, has fired people and can't even get a series out on time under his leadership.

The Christmas episode this year will be available in Easter, unless they shovel more money in.

He's just not good for the show.  Sorry.  Them's the facts.

[Khaldun]

What I don't grasp is why you continue to follow the minute behind-the-scenes details and actual episodes of a series that apparently makes you feel like you're passing a kidney stone. It's like watching a medieval pilgrim climb stone steps on his knees while beating himself bloody with a cat-o-nine tails.

[Ironwood]

Um, I don't.  I live in the UK, have a certain group of friends and work in geekery.  You can't really avoid it.

[Khaldun]

I am a serious geek, hang with and read geek sites, but honestly I can avoid the details of shows that I actively disdain and think are beyond salvation. Now mind you I'm feeling really pissed about DC Comics, so there are motes in my eyes, but even there I try pretty hard to be clear about what's good and appreciating it as such.

[Tebonas]

I think you underestimate the unique position Doctor Who holds in Britain. Almost everyone below and above a certain age grew up with it, so everyone has an opinion. Its not one of many interchangeable products like the US geeky thing of the day.

Or so I'm told, maybe they lied to me.

[Reg]

That makes sense. I can't think of any American television shows aside from a few afternoon soap operas that are old enough that their audience actually spans generations.  I wonder though. Is the current show that so offends Ironwood a result of evolution or is it just an aberration that might be fixed next time they get a new showrunner?

[Ironwood]

Well, I'd say an it might get fixed, but this is kinda the route that Colin Bakers Dr went down.

That stopped it getting made for quite some time.

[NowhereMan]

Going from general meta-series commentary to individual episodes, today's really went to show that when you stop trying to make fucking EPIC moments solves with fairy dust and plot twists the characters and actors can carry the show wonderfully. This one was definitely worth watching.

[Mattemeo]

Makeup on Amy was amazing. Clearly a much bigger budget in general for this episode, but the makeup/prosthetics work really needs to be given huge kudos.

[Tebonas]

With all the bad stuff happening under Moffat, the charaterisations are usually spot on. Episodes that play that into the foreground are really fun to watch. So was this one.

[Fraeg]

God Complex:

ok, a bit dull and predictable, but I do like the setup that the

[Tebonas]

What the fuck was the Doctor droning on about?

Rose Tyler - alive (in a parallel diimension, but still)
Jack Harkness - alive (and immortal to boot)
Mickey Smith - alive (and happy with Martha)
Martha Jones - alive (and happy with Mickey)
Donna Noble - alive (and not remembering a thing, but shes still not worse off than before)

He makes it sound like all his companions drop dead left and right when they travel with him. Of course, they tend to get a taste of the adventurous life and usually won't settle down in a suburb with children. But I think the writers mistook the Doctor for Jack Harkness for a moment there, the man who REALLY kills everybody he works with sooner or later.

[Khaldun]

I think the thing they're really referencing is not the companions but the redshirt count. And that's pretty fair not just for nuWho but old Who. Think of every base defense episode across seven Doctors--half the people involved or more end up dead, many of them after the Doctor has joined the defense. Sometimes because of stuff the Doctor does. In a few cases because he pretty much relies on them to sacrifice themselves. Rita is really who the Doctor is talking about--he saves his companions but he has the blood of lots and lots and lots of Ritas on his hands from his perspective, because he believes he ought to be able to save them. It's why he gets so angry or disgusted even in old Who when someone dies who shouldn't have died, the way he sees it. That's the "god complex"--his enduring feeling that he should be able to save people who he doesn't want to die. nuWho hit this theme hard and really well in "The Doctor Dances". You could argue that the Doctor shouldn't feel so bad because he saves lots of people he's never met or sees from all sorts of evil--but the Doctor seems to care more about the people he gets to know than about the big abstract "good" he may be doing.

[Khaldun]

By the way, anybody who knows the old show who wants a big big big spoiler might take a gander at the IMDB credits for the final episode of this season. If you saw a resemblance between a key scene in "The God Complex" and an old Who episode scene between the Doctor and a companion, you should give yourself a big nerd point.

[raydeen]

By the way, anybody who knows the old show who wants a big big big spoiler might take a gander at the IMDB credits for the final episode of this season. If you saw a resemblance between a key scene in "The God Complex" and an old Who episode scene between the Doctor and a companion, you should give yourself a big nerd point.

Well one name does stand out in that list (possibly two, not sure about the second one though). As for a key scene, the only thing that crossed my mind was

[Khaldun]

Really do not read if you still care about this season.

[raydeen]

Really do not read if you still care about this season.

Damn I was not thinking of that scene. Good call. That is one of my favorite episodes too.

[Khaldun]

[Simond]

I've managed to find someone who dislikes Moffat more than Ironwood does: http://cashpeters.wordpress.com/2011/05/15/doctor-who-out-of-time-and-past-its-prime/

 

[Ironwood]

Article had some excellent points and some that were simply not right.  (I loved Coupling for example.  It is, in fact, Genius.)

But it does capture my general feelings and, apparently, the feelings of a fair few.  Currently a big strumash over here about falling ratings.  It's getting kinda like McCoy all over again in the papers.  That seems telling to me.

But I didn't watch the last one and I doubt I'll bother anymore.  I'm 'over it' if you will.

[Mattemeo]

What a load of insufferable solipsistic twaddle.

[Fraeg]

The Curse of Fenric....woooo   $25 really poorly spent... 

[Khaldun]

I thought it was one of the few good McCoy episodes. Gave you a sense of what he might have done with the role if there had been a better producer and more support from BBC.

Further on that spoiler, the picture of a chess-playing Norse/Viking from the ComicCon trailer that everyone is looking at again...has an eyepatch. Identical to Kovarian's, in fact.

[adjunct]

I've managed to find someone who dislikes Moffat more than Ironwood does: http://cashpeters.wordpress.com/2011/05/15/doctor-who-out-of-time-and-past-its-prime/

 

Dude needs therapy. Plus he hated 'Coupling'. I dislike him and pity him both.

[Khaldun]

I like the new Sherlock also. Quite a bit. I assume that people who think Moffat is a baby-raper who makes George Lucas look like Jesus don't care for that either?

[adjunct]

I like the new Sherlock also. Quite a bit. I assume that people who think Moffat is a baby-raper who makes George Lucas look like Jesus don't care for that either?

I enjoyed the first series and am looking forward to the next.

Someones at CBS seemed to enjoy it as well.

[Ironwood]

Sherlock is

A - Mostly Gatiss.

And

B - A fucking rewrite of the Sherlock Holmes Stories.

Stop reaching so hard.

[Khaldun]

It's not really the stories that make it work, though.