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Author Topic: Dr. Who  (Read 624424 times)
Raguel
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Reply #910 on: June 18, 2011, 11:48:10 PM

You guys are broken. That was a fun, interesting episode--not just some great character bits (I'd watch a spinoff featuring the Silurian Detective and her lover the maidservant) but a generally well-plotted and interesting story. A few holes, a few problems, but nothing serious.  

"I'm old!I'm fat! I'm BLUE!" awesome, for real
TBH this was one of my fave episodes so far. Matt Smith is now my favorite doctor by a mile (granted, I've only been watching Dr. Who since the reboot). IMO he knocked this one out of the park. I do wonder how all this is going to add up though.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2011, 12:36:57 AM by Raguel »
Raguel
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Reply #911 on: July 01, 2011, 06:35:14 PM


While looking for something totally different I ran across a Dr. Who rumor involving David Tennant. I'm sure many here will hate it if it's true, but I for one welcome our new Time OverLord  awesome, for real
Evildrider
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Reply #912 on: July 01, 2011, 11:38:20 PM



 DRILLING AND MANLINESS
HaemishM
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Reply #913 on: July 02, 2011, 12:18:43 PM

Having seen the Fright Night trailer, I can't decide whether to be  awesome, for real or  ACK! over the overly dark and gritty tone they seem to be taking with the remake.

Evildrider
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Reply #914 on: July 02, 2011, 12:26:26 PM

Well rumor going round is that Tennant was so awesome they are gonna make Fright Night 2 all around his character.
Surlyboi
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Reply #915 on: August 27, 2011, 07:05:41 PM


Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
Mattemeo
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Reply #916 on: August 27, 2011, 07:27:31 PM

Worst episode for a very long time. Probably the first time I've truly felt disappointed by Moffat. Enough with the DRAMA and REVELATIONS*. Give me some fucking WHO.


*read: enough with River Fucking Song already

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Tale
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Reply #917 on: August 27, 2011, 08:20:49 PM

I stopped watching at episode 6.2 (second episode of the previous season). I've been a Doctor Who fan since childhood (born in UK) and the Doctor and Amy are brilliantly cast, but it just got too camp, too celebratory of itself, I found River Song unbearable and I despised the Amy "he's the Doctor" voiceover at the start of each episode.

Is it worth catching up?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 08:23:21 PM by Tale »
HaemishM
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Reply #918 on: August 27, 2011, 09:33:34 PM

No. not really.

As usual, the characters are great in this one, the chemistry works and I have always liked River Song. What I don't like is the stories and situations they are put into, and the ridiculous flouting of any sort of continuity or consistent rules in the stories. The whole Hitler thing was done for nothing but a laugh. It was window dressing for a very silly story.

Khaldun
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Reply #919 on: August 28, 2011, 04:44:24 AM

I liked it. Got a bit loose in parts, but I think the storyline of River Song/Melody Pond is starting to come together in some intriguing ways. I think Moffat does have to sit down and think about how to make timey-wimey work a bit more. I also think that the next season should have some more done-in-one stuff. It's heresy in nuWho but it might be time to not have an arc. Not that I want a bunch of base defense stories instead or whatever, but they need to nail down some episode-focused storytelling rather than just rushing ahead to the next mystery/arc-advancing thing.

I thought Matt Smith did an even better job than usual in this episode, though. His Doctor is really a great version of the character. His call-backs to Troughton in particular are great.
Khaldun
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Reply #920 on: August 28, 2011, 05:05:54 AM

Also, I'm more sure than ever regarding the likely resolution of the astronaut-kills-Doctor thing. Things that I think Moffat has to work in for that resolution to be tight and workable:

Talpidae
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Reply #921 on: August 28, 2011, 05:12:15 AM

I'm going to go with 'Who Gives A Fuck?'

"LOOK HOW CLEVER ARE MY BALLS!" - Steven Moffat.
Khaldun
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Reply #922 on: August 28, 2011, 05:15:02 AM

Thanks for the update.
Reg
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Reply #923 on: August 28, 2011, 11:17:06 AM

I liked this episode a lot. I think it's the best I've seen with the new doctor.
NowhereMan
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Reply #924 on: August 28, 2011, 12:28:20 PM

The actual episode wasn't horrible but fuck's sake that start to it made my ears start to bleed with the stupid. Again it felt a lot like they had a strong idea for the characters themselves, they're well written and the actors have good chemistry, they just keep sticking them in situations that are either totally idiotic or painfully self-aware. I think doing more single episode formats would serve Moffat much better simply because he can just about get away with actors/characters carrying the story if you know the story doesn't really matter. As soon as they start talking about the plot and 'serious important time-travelly wavelly' stuff that all falls down.


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HaemishM
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Reply #925 on: August 28, 2011, 12:50:45 PM

Again it felt a lot like they had a strong idea for the characters themselves, they're well written and the actors have good chemistry, they just keep sticking them in situations that are either totally idiotic or painfully self-aware

Also the whole Hitler thing was obviously a time travelling trope joke but why the fuck would you do that? The show is not that new and they've not really gone in for utterly irrelevant big plot jokes about time travel. It's not particularly clever even if it did allow for a bit of humour.

Both of ^ This ^ times infinity. The characters and actors CARRY this show and are the only reasons I'm still watching. The goddamn stories make me want to slap someone British.

NowhereMan
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Reply #926 on: August 28, 2011, 02:49:09 PM

I get the distinct impression Moffat is generally fantastic at writing characters and that when he has a good idea he's one of the best sci-fi writers getting stuff on television over here at least. The problem is he just doesn't seem to do epic particularly well and seems to feel that's what he has to be doing for Who. It also turns out either he or whoever he's got assisting just don't have that many great ideas and the result is that while his list of episodes has some really fucking awesome stuff in there the rest feels like stuff that's been stuck in just to get to the occasional great bits. Based purely on what he's done so far I'd say Moffat really needs someone that can write good series arcs and can work his good ideas into said arcs. I doubt we'll see anyone willingly giving up that level of control in something they really love.

Which is a shame because the man's clearly a great writer he just doesn't seem to be suited to a series with a running plot or at least not one where he seems to be going with quite a different idea of what is characteristic of the series to most of its fans. Granted this can sometimes be a good thing but in this case I think he's forgoing telling good stories in favour of 'clever' camp. Much the same way that the early Torchwood was so determined to be 'adult' action, they've achieved writing a caricature of what I'm assuming they set out to make. At least plot wise, like I said I think the characters in this work well enough that I'll keep watching it when I've got nothing better to do. In that regard I think Moffat's fortunate he's got a good casting eye (assuming he's responsible) as a mediocre Doctor would probably have really endangered viewers for it.

"Look at my car. Do you think that was bought with the earnest love of geeks?" - HaemishM
Khaldun
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Reply #927 on: August 28, 2011, 06:17:01 PM

I think he's great at the following, in the following order:

1. Dialogue (come on, there were great lines in "Hitler")
2. Characters, particularly incidental characters. RTD could throw off character *ideas* and then not do so well with actual people; Moffat is the reverse. His actual characters, particularly incidentals, are great.
3. Writing to the actors. Not quite the same as characters.
4. Ideas for how to actually make use of a time-travel based series. Anybody ever play an old pen-and-paper RPG called Timemaster? It had terrifically clever rules in the expansion for dealing with stuff like putting a note to yourself in a container that could violate causality and allow you to save yourself from a deadly ambush. Moffat thinks along those lines, he's trying to work with those elements, something that Who often has avoided.


Where he falls down:

1. Narrative execution of complicated plotting ideas. He's really failing to wrap stuff up, and that's important.
2. Exposition (not info-dumps, but come on, let us in on some shit with some clarity)
3. Tightness of each episode's narrative arc
4. Not repeating plot motifs to excess (character almost dies, things you shouldn't look at, etc.)

Also, ALL show-runners for shows like this need to find a space for someone else to do some done-in-one episodes. Once it becomes your show too indelibly, down the rabbit hole you go, no matter how clever you are.
Fraeg
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Reply #928 on: August 28, 2011, 07:52:45 PM


stuff:


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Evildrider
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Reply #929 on: August 28, 2011, 07:54:53 PM

Maybe it's just me, but I think you guys are just too overcritical about TV shows.  I watch to be entertained, if I over thought as much as you all do, I'd never watch TV.

Mind you I don't think that Doctor Who is "OMG AMAZING" but it still is better than 95% of the other crap out there.

Or maybe it's just the weed.   awesome, for real
NowhereMan
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Reply #930 on: August 29, 2011, 01:11:20 AM

4. Ideas for how to actually make use of a time-travel based series. Anybody ever play an old pen-and-paper RPG called Timemaster? It had terrifically clever rules in the expansion for dealing with stuff like putting a note to yourself in a container that could violate causality and allow you to save yourself from a deadly ambush. Moffat thinks along those lines, he's trying to work with those elements, something that Who often has avoided.

I'd agree with everything except that. Dr. Who has actively avoided doing that kind of stuff, partly because the chances of ending up with a showdown between the Doctor and the Master that's just a remake of the Bill and Ted climax is way too likely. That kind of stuff can, just occasionally make for a clever plot point but really the time travel aspect is there to set up episodes in interesting places. Once you start making it a major factor in the stories themselves you've opened a can of plotting worms that just makes a mess because the temptation to do 'clever' or 'funny' stuff once you've started for the writer is probably going to be way too much. Also it's changing a big element of the show.

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Talpidae
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Reply #931 on: August 29, 2011, 01:17:42 AM

Eddie Murphy's 'Meet Dave'.
'Fantastic Voyage'
''Allo 'Allo'
'Bill and Ted'

And that was just at the start.  I don't understand how anyone can watch this anymore.  It's regurgitated crap and it's not even regurgitated well.  The Plot holes become so large they actually drown out other episodes, entirely unrelated.  It's shockingly sad that anyone still watches this.  I'm out.

Also, Temporal Grace, Top Hat and Tails and unexpected friend mysteriously appearing is just kicking your audience in the junk.  Stop doing that.  I swear to God, Rory is the only reason to watch anymore.

RORY.

PS - What a fucking waste of a really hot actresses.  Hi, I'm your friend you've never ever met, whoops, I died, kinda.  Hotness vanishes.  Another Kick Swiftly In The Junk.

"LOOK HOW CLEVER ARE MY BALLS!" - Steven Moffat.
Khaldun
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Reply #932 on: August 29, 2011, 06:24:27 AM

The problem with time travel as a plot device is the same problem with magic. Unless some worldbuilding is done so there are rules, it's almost impossible for any writer to avoid using it as a way to get out of a narrative dilemma and thus to void out any drama at all. Drama is about choices, and choices aren't dramatic unless there are consequences either way a character leaps. If a character can always choose an action that has no consequences, or can always escape consequences by just cancelling out the action later, it robs a story of any energy.

I think timey-wimey can work in Who if there's some careful world-building attention given to it. Post-The Big Bang would have been a good time to begin doing that--the Doctor could have said, "Well, there are no more Time Lords and the universe just got recreated, so I'm not really terribly sure how time works any longer. Let's find out!"  Or even this episode could have been that--the Doctor could have confessed to Rory and Amy that the reason he can't find Melody is that he's not sure how time works anymore, and also that the Silence are buggering around with homemade Tardis consoles, which is an urgent problem, but it got sidetracked on the Melody Pond assassin plot.
HaemishM
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Reply #933 on: August 29, 2011, 08:21:00 AM

the time travel aspect is there to set up episodes in interesting places.

This. This is what the old Who excelled at. Time travel was just an excuse to set episodes in really interesting places. One minute you're in Victorian England, the next some weird ass pleasure planet, the next you're in a colony star ship being attacked by aliens dressed in spray-painted bubble wrap. There was very little timey-wimey let's rewrite the universe and oh by the way I TOTALLY foresaw this situation and put a thingamabob in the cabinet over there so that you lose. There didn't need to be. That kind of thing can work once maybe every two or three seasons. When it's every fucking episode and it's consistently nonsensical (like the Pandora's Box setup or the goddamn believing the Doctor back into existence thing) you get stories that bop you over the head repeatedly with STUPID.

I can be entertained by stupid, but Doctor Who is not about being STUPID. Despite the overall silliness of the Tom Baker episodes, it was never stupid, smug or condescending. Moffat seems to be constantly rubbing his balls in my face and saying "LOOK HOW CLEVER ARE MY BALLS!"

Talpidae
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Reply #934 on: August 29, 2011, 10:20:08 AM

Gimmick Sig.

"LOOK HOW CLEVER ARE MY BALLS!" - Steven Moffat.
Simond
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Reply #935 on: September 03, 2011, 01:10:05 PM

One sentence reviews:
Let's Kill Hitler: Two halves of potentially interesting episodes mashed together (Hitler vs Time-cop mecha/River Song origin story) which came together to far less than the sum of their parts.

Night Terrors: Like 'Fear Her' except not terrible.

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Reply #936 on: September 03, 2011, 05:19:00 PM

One sentence reviews:
Let's Kill Hitler: Two halves of potentially interesting episodes mashed together (Hitler vs Time-cop mecha/River Song origin story) which came together to far less than the sum of their parts.

Night Terrors: Like 'Fear Her' except not terrible.

I agree. Night Terrors was fun, with spooky moments, it made sense more or less, even the actors seemed to be having a good time.
Mattemeo
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Reply #937 on: September 04, 2011, 05:46:00 AM

Muuuuch better. See what happens when River Song's not involved? Everyone has fun. For a clearly exceedingly low budget episode, they got some really good visuals going. Proper horror cinematography helped.


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HaemishM
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Reply #938 on: September 05, 2011, 11:55:04 AM

I fell asleep near the end of Night Terrors and had to rewind it and watch the end again. Some spooky moments were set up, a nice twist on the monsters in the closet story but ultimately felt kind of throwaway.

Talpidae
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Reply #939 on: September 05, 2011, 11:56:06 AM

It was a rewrite of 'Fear Her'.

And not as good.

It's pretty obvious that the budget and time pressures are just gouging even good writers.  This show badly needs someone in charge who knows what the fuck they're doing.

"LOOK HOW CLEVER ARE MY BALLS!" - Steven Moffat.
Khaldun
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Reply #940 on: September 06, 2011, 06:12:19 AM

I thought it was ok, nothing great. Some nice bits here and there.

Still not sure what the haters have in mind as the gold standard for Who.
Fraeg
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Reply #941 on: September 06, 2011, 09:10:22 AM

whereas I used to be glued to the screen.  This season I find myself tabbed out just listening while I surf.  This episode was no different. 

"There is dignity and deep satisfaction in facing life and death without the comfort of heaven or the fear of hell and in sailing toward the great abyss with a smile."
HaemishM
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Reply #942 on: September 06, 2011, 09:25:05 AM

Still not sure what the haters have in mind as the gold standard for Who.

David Tennant's first season (so reboot Season 2) and Tom Baker's days.

Slyfeind
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Reply #943 on: September 06, 2011, 09:42:00 AM

Fun episode, though definitely a throwaway. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, though. What I found interesting was the giant creepy walking dolls were actually played a little silly. I mean, they weren't laughable, just a little goofy. They were indeed scary in other scenes though, so it felt like a choice.

Loved the exchange between Amy and Rory....
Rory: This is weird!
Amy: Yeh, says the time-travelling nurse!

It's those little self-aware moments that I groove on. (The big self-aware moments though, I can do without.)

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palmer_eldritch
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Reply #944 on: September 06, 2011, 10:19:48 AM

Amy: "I have just been turned into a wooden dolly!". Bless.

The bit where Derek Jacobi takes out his watch and Martha's all "waitaminute" was television gold for me, and that's even despite the fact that we all knew what was coming. It worked because we'd seen the Doctor hide his true nature away in a pocket watch in a previous episode, and if he can do it then why can't other time lords - even (dramatic music) evil ones?

It was part of an arc that made sense in the context of the Doctor Who world, which actually led somewhere - to a villain who seemed like a genuine threat because he's presumably just as smart as the Doctor. It also tugged at the heartstrings a bit because it turns out the Doctor isn't alone after all, but the other Time Lord is evil so he's, in a way, more alone than ever!! Oh no!!

Then again, failing to tell Rose he loved her at the end of Season Two was pretty sad too.

But in the current season, I can't say I really care about the Doctor's relationship with River Song, or Amy's relationship with her. I'd like to but it's just so convoluted and feels fake.

I like Amy and Rory as a couple, and I've a nasty feeling that River will turn out to be Rory's killer, not the Doctor's (possibly forshadowed in that scene when Amy is telling her baby that the most wonderful man in the galaxy is coming to rescue them and his name is D..D..wait for it ..Daddy..).
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