Dr. Who

[Surlyboi]

preachy woke stuff.

Shut up, man.

[Morat20]

preachy woke stuff.

Shut up, man.

Have you ever known any bitchy, old, white dude to STFU?

"Oh no, there's TV that doesn't cater to ME SPECIFICALLY! Is this being a victim?. I hate it!"

Whine, whine, whine, whine, fucking whine.

We've finally found a downside to white privilege. It makes you a thin skinned little bitch. Who will not ever, ever, fucking shut up about it either.

[Khaldun]

It's stupid to say that the first season and a half of Whitaker's Who was a problem because it was woke, but it's fair to say that it was so weightless in terms of stakes that it was hard to care, and that the mostly male creative crew were so, so scared of writing a female Doctor that they didn't know how to handle it--you can practically see the incredibly constrained space they were trying to stay within because they were scared on one hand of making a female Doctor sexualized and on the other of making her seem like a man-in-drag that the best they could come up with is "slightly maternal, team-building, friendly"--sort of the Doctor as a rather nice manager of a friendly start-up or work team. That's not being woke, but it is boring and that's a lot of why people dropped out.

Whitaker's Doctor actually reminds me a lot of Peter Davidson's Doctor, in not a good way--following more eccentric, moody actors with a wide emotional range who were allowed to chew some scenery with a character who is basically a rather pleasant and sensible chap.

[Morat20]

Oh don't get me wrong, Whittaker's doctor was crippled by bad writing. They had a good cast and some good chemistry, but the writers and showrunners just struggled to find their feet.

And part of that likely was "first female doctor", and likely for the reasons you mentioned. (Lord knows, if she'd been as bossy as some, she'd have been labeled "shrill" and "bitchy" from the get go).

But it's not fucking wokeness. I mean jesus christ, when hasn't doctor who been about shit like empathy, tolerance, diversity, getting along, and all that shit?

[HaemishM]

But it's not fucking wokeness. I mean jesus christ, when hasn't doctor who been about shit like empathy, tolerance, diversity, getting along, and all that shit?

"No, not like that." 

[slog]

preachy woke stuff.

Shut up, man.

Have you ever known any bitchy, old, white dude to STFU?

"Oh no, there's TV that doesn't cater to ME SPECIFICALLY! Is this being a victim?. I hate it!"

Whine, whine, whine, whine, fucking whine.

We've finally found a downside to white privilege. It makes you a thin skinned little bitch. Who will not ever, ever, fucking shut up about it either.

No need to bring politics into the TV forum.  Here are some quotes from TV critics.

Michael Horgan : “flat, worthy and woke”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/0/bbc-has-failed-doctor-jodie-whittaker-no-wonder-quitting/

Matt McGloin: "Doctor Who: Worst Ratings In 31 Years For Jodie Whittaker, Chris Chibnall...Reasons cited for the show's continued demise include bad writing, poor acting, and its "woke" approach."

Yes,  I know Dr Who has always been political.  That's ok, as long as they can make it part of the story.  This guy can explain it far better than I can, if you have 10 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGWxjHBSn-4

[Khaldun]

Kind of like another person who just linky-links, I can't even tell if you just went with your first two Google links or if you know what you're looking at, considering that the Telegraph is basically the WSJ of the UK and Matt McGloin of "CosmicBookNews" is writing for a clickbait site that makes ScreenRant look like The New Yorker.

I mean, right-leaning sites hated Russell T. Davies Who as well until they decided that maybe they liked it.

The issue isn't politics, it's just that Chibnall's not very good.

[slog]

Kind of like another person who just linky-links, I can't even tell if you just went with your first two Google links or if you know what you're looking at, considering that the Telegraph is basically the WSJ of the UK and Matt McGloin of "CosmicBookNews" is writing for a clickbait site that makes ScreenRant look like The New Yorker.

I mean, right-leaning sites hated Russell T. Davies Who as well until they decided that maybe they liked it.

The issue isn't politics, it's just that Chibnall's not very good.

I get a lot of Dr Who news stories in my feed and searched them for woke.  Critical Drinker has a good Youtube channel and he does lots of sci-fi reviews.

Yes, the problem is Chibnall, but it also just might be that Dr Who has run it's course and needs another 10 year break.

[Surlyboi]

No need to bring politics into the TV forum.

…says the guy that brought politics into the TV forum and then proceeded to list a bunch of right-wing hacks to back his point…

[Morat20]

No need to bring politics into the TV forum.  Here are some quotes from TV critics.

Who bitched about wokeness again? You? That's right.

Oh I forget, it's not political if it's your politics.

God, I'd say you're a shit troll but you're clearly just an angry old man at this point. Fuck, dude, you sound like a bitchy boomer. Are you typing this from a scooter while sucking down oxygen and bitching about the kung flu?

[slog]

Also popping up in my feed here is a 5 hour video someone did critiquing of the Chibnall era. That's some serious dedication.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8_A7n83Rh0

[Khaldun]

Jesus, bitch, this is culture, talk about something you watched as you actually saw it, don't provide us a bunch of references. Who the fuck cares what some social media fuckface thinks of it, what do you think based on what you actually watched? Do you actually sit and watch shit? Or play games? The stuff that is supposed to be the heart of this here dingus? If I'm complaining about Eternals or Dr. Who or whatever, it starts with what I actually SAW.

[Reg]

I watched the first few episodes of the latest Doctor and just found them to be boring and humorless. I noped out of most of Peter Capaldi, only going back for a few episodes that got really good reviews. I'd have done the same for this Doctor but there were no reviews that inspired me to watch.
If the next doctor and showrunner can bring back at least Matt Smith quality I'll watch regularly again.

[slog]

Jesus, bitch, this is culture, talk about something you watched as you actually saw it, don't provide us a bunch of references. Who the fuck cares what some social media fuckface thinks of it, what do you think based on what you actually watched? Do you actually sit and watch shit? Or play games? The stuff that is supposed to be the heart of this here dingus? If I'm complaining about Eternals or Dr. Who or whatever, it starts with what I actually SAW.

I've been watching since 1976.  I've stopped watching midway though season 11 and start up again watching season 13. 

[Velorath]

Any reviewer who actually uses "woke" in just about any context pretty much invalidates their review or whatever it is they're trying to say about the subject being discussed.

[Khaldun]

Jesus, bitch, this is culture, talk about something you watched as you actually saw it, don't provide us a bunch of references. Who the fuck cares what some social media fuckface thinks of it, what do you think based on what you actually watched? Do you actually sit and watch shit? Or play games? The stuff that is supposed to be the heart of this here dingus? If I'm complaining about Eternals or Dr. Who or whatever, it starts with what I actually SAW.

I've been watching since 1976.  I've stopped watching midway though season 11 and start up again watching season 13. 

So, you know, actually just talk about the show. You really don't seem to know how to stand on your own two feet when it comes to having an opinion on anything. I mean, look at the thread where folks are talking about Wheel of Time. It's about what they thought of the show, what they thought of the books, etc.

[NowhereMan]

Apparently viewing figures have been dropping off dramatically over this season, which I can kind of understand. I don't even get what the wokeness complaint is, the problem has been very much a poorly written series that seems to either assume a lot of knowledge of who recurring characters are e.g. the grand Serpent chappy or are introducing characters without any explanation e.g. Swarm and Azure. At least I'm assuming that the Serpent guy is a call back, I've got 0 context for who he might be and there's 0 attempt to explain him.

Based on the call back to the Timeless Child, I'm guessing I'm missing some build up to all this but it's just poor writing if you need to have watched the previous season to be able to follow what's happening (especially if the characters are equally confused about things). The whole thing about Time being some force that was at war with space and is now going to be made free and... I just don't get it. Seems to be quite a change up in how the universe works and how things operate (I guess with Division replacing the Time Lords as some kind of universal management force).

[Tebonas]

Can we please leave the politics in its own sub-forum where one can deliberately walk into when they feel like watching what the particular lunacy of the day might be? If I read the other forums I want to be informed about the topics there, not to be trolled by slog.

On topic, I don't dislike the short last season like the season before. Sure, they still have that idiocy with the former unknown regenerations of the Doctor to content with, but the rest of it is kind of amusing and interesting. Might be my love for mans best friend speaking, though.

[Khaldun]

The Division sort of makes sense in the deeper mythology of the show--all the way back to Tom Baker's 4th Doctor, we've heard that the Time Lords have a secretive spy/enforcement organization that has an agenda of its own, and to some extent it seems to have actually started the Time War with the Daleks by sending Baker's Doctor to murder the Daleks before they ever got started, which ultimately did nothing except reveal to the Daleks' creator that the Time Lords existed.

The Timeless Child thing was introduced in the last full season and it was a pretty big change in the mythos that a lot of people didn't care for; I wouldn't be surprised if this whole thing doesn't end with some unravelling of it/some twist that makes it not quite what it has seemed so far.

[slog]

The Division sort of makes sense in the deeper mythology of the show--all the way back to Tom Baker's 4th Doctor, we've heard that the Time Lords have a secretive spy/enforcement organization that has an agenda of its own, and to some extent it seems to have actually started the Time War with the Daleks by sending Baker's Doctor to murder the Daleks before they ever got started, which ultimately did nothing except reveal to the Daleks' creator that the Time Lords existed.

The Timeless Child thing was introduced in the last full season and it was a pretty big change in the mythos that a lot of people didn't care for; I wouldn't be surprised if this whole thing doesn't end with some unravelling of it/some twist that makes it not quite what it has seemed so far.

The Division does kind of make sense, but having watched the latest episode, the writers seem to have made everything overly complicated again.  The show is just so much better when they keep it simple like in the Village of the Angels.  The scene in Survivors of the Flux where The Doctor finally meets Tectuen felt like the two were almost doing an out of character narrative of the story line to explain what was going on.  And throwing in the stuff with UNIT is just too much.  

[Khaldun]

It's definitely way overcomplicated and they're definitely throwing way too much into the mix. It's like Chibnall trying to make up for everything he didn't do right before, which is never a good idea.

[HaemishM]

Any reviewer who actually uses "woke" in just about any context pretty much invalidates their review or whatever it is they're trying to say about the subject being discussed.

This. I haven't watched Doctor Who since the last shitty season of the Moffat years. Using "woke" as a criticism is the same as saying "cancel culture." It's lazy writing, signaling to the worst chodes on the Internet so they can feel better about being racist, misogynist tits.

[NowhereMan]

Yeah I have very little fucking clue what's happening in this season, Chibnall seems to have gone to the ridiculous extreme of in media res where the viewer is given 0 context for why things are important or how they might be connected save guesswork based on what might be an interesting story. When trying to work out what might be happening next is based entirely on how writers are going to deliver a grand conflict pulling all the shown threads together, that's bad writing. I'm also not sure I like what they've done with the Angels but that's also because their gimmick really doesn't lend itself to anything outside of the original Blink without a lot of caveats about they can't all see each other or similar (and I'm a boring pedant). Going from Village of the Angels to wacky Round the World in 80 days adventure also seems weird.

And why the fuck is Time some sort of opposing force to Space and there was a war against it and now a planet Time and these weirdos in New Romantics outfits??? This seems like the key plot/conflict and it's totally new, without any explanation or seemingly hinted at before.

[Khaldun]

Though that at least is something the show has done many times--throwing out seemingly momentous cosmic-level shit that should be fundamental to the world-building from that point on but gets forgotten almost instantly. White Guardian and Black Guardian? The Doctor planning an elaborate trap for the Daleks across many millennia and being Merlin at some point in their history? etc.

Not to mention the numbers of times that late 20th and early 21st Century Earth has been invaded by aliens or had aliens around and yet somehow the next time it happens it is treated as if it has never happened before. Not to mention the deep weirdness of the UK's political history in the Who universe since the Ninth Doctor showed up.

But yes, this season is feeling like a mass vomiting up of every half-baked Big Idea the writing staff could come up with to make up for the relatively inconsequential and one-off nature of most of  this Doctor's episodes before now.

[slog]

Just watched the last episode.


I would have liked more Vinder and Bel (she was probably my favorite in the whole flux series) and less annoying Mal.  Plot continues to be a bit too convoluted with too many monologues from the Doctor.

[Reg]

Sounds awful. Someone wake me up when there's a new doctor and a new showrunner.

[01101010]

What the hell is a Darlek? 

[Surlyboi]

It’s one you find in a storage facility on New Year’s Eve.

This special was the best 90 minutes of Chibnal’s run.

[Khaldun]

New Doctor announced.

Ncuti Gatwa, who is in the Netflix show Sex Education.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-61371123

[eldaec]

My immediate reaction was he is way too young.

But that was also my immediate reaction to Smith, Tennant, and for that matter Davidson and Colin Baker.

So my immediate reaction is probably wrong.

[slog]

Anything is better than the current mess.  Looking forward to him and Davies saving the series.

[01101010]

So this twist I assume is to get back the fans that wandered off after Matt's run.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mbD2VxtGJk

I am ok with this and very curious how they'll go about using this as a springboard to Ncuti Gatwa. Either way, Tennant was solid for so long, it should get some past viewers back in the mix.

Really would have been bonkers if it was Eccleston and I would have signed up for whatever streaming service had it.

[Surlyboi]

Jazzed as fuck it’s Tennant but I would’ve loved Eccleston too because he would’ve eaten up that opening line too.

When I saw she changed clothes I knew something was amiss, but didn’t expect that.

That said, this wasn’t a bad send off for Jodie Whitaker. I liked her, just wish she’d gotten better writing. Hell, I’d have even taken some Moffatry here and there.

[Riggswolfe]

I stopped watching during Whitaker era because the writing was so god awful. I do feel like the Tennant return is probably a desperation ploy to get eyes back onto the series but let's be honest, if Russell Davies can pull off the same magic he did when Doctor Who first came back he may yet right the ship so if they need David Tennant to draw eyes then I support it if it means a return to good writing and an entertaining show again.

[Khaldun]

Whitaker's run showed that Moffat wasn't as bad as it could get; the worst Moffats were only slightly worse than the best Chibnalls. We've tried five times to get through our DVR'd versions of the Flux episodes and we just can't. Even this episode had some of that same way-too-busy mania to it.

Whitaker could have been great in the role but a bunch of male writers were plainly terrified by having to write for a woman--the whole "fam" thing, the insistence that this Doctor be sort of mother-hennish, was plainly the only thing they could think of between "sexy Doctor" and "elderly nun Doctor", because god knows that just writing her as a version of a long-running character with an actual personality was too hard.

The best thing in Chibnall's run was actually the Master, who was a fucking terrific version of the character, including in this episode.

I'm not wild about Tennant coming back even for an anniversary blip just because it deepens my fear that Davies is just repeat all of his schtick over again. Good as it was, it was: the show has never gotten out of his shadow since, because the next two showrunners were essentially apprentices to Davies. They need someone who can be what Davies was when he first stepped in: a big breath of fresh air. They need to resituate the character, the backdrop, the common plotlines, the idea of the companions and their arcs, everything.

I would like the Daleks and Cybermen to go away for years. I'd like to see some enemies who have long-term arcs of their own who have an actual situation or setting they're grounded in as opposed to disposable versions of recurring enemies where the new wrinkle gets forgotten instantly as soon as the story is over. I'd like to see some steadier world-building. I'd like to see smarter uses of time travel. Make UK-centered stories less common. Fewer stories where all of Creation is at stake, fewer stories where the Doctor is operating at godlike levels. I want a Doctor who is more alien and erratic again, who has some gravitas and a palpable feeling of old-soul suffering. I dunno. It needs a thorough spring cleaning and I think that's not going to be what Davies does.