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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Warhammer Online (Moderator: tazelbain)  |  Topic: Prediction thread: Order or Destruction, who will win the population war? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: Prediction thread: Order or Destruction, who will win the population war?  (Read 28442 times)
Rasix
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I am the harbinger of your doom!


Reply #35 on: August 26, 2008, 04:34:34 PM

Destruction.

Cooler tanks and healers by far. Only thing they don't do better is glass cannon ranged.

-Rasix
Trippy
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Reply #36 on: August 26, 2008, 04:37:30 PM

The lizard men seem to be actual good guys but they don't do shit except sit on their hands even though they have an edict handed to them by their god to eradicate evil. Ohhhhh, I see.
More like eradicate Chaos but they are cold-blooded so it takes them a while to get going awesome, for real
Trippy
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Reply #37 on: August 26, 2008, 04:41:31 PM

The lizard men seem to be actual good guys but they don't do shit except sit on their hands even though they have an edict handed to them by their god to eradicate evil. Ohhhhh, I see.
Sweet, good guy lizards?  Do want.


DRILLING AND MANLINESS
idiot grin
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Reply #38 on: August 26, 2008, 05:59:17 PM

warhammer fantasy USED to be very dark, very low-fantasy.  I don't know when the fundamental change was made, but it was sometime between the early 90's (when i stopped playing the P&P game regularly) and a few years ago, when the new P&P book came out.  Saw some strange things in there, did some looking around on the interwebs, and the entire warhammer world has been... well... 

it's still dark compared to any other mainstream fantasy world i know of, but the changes are disgusting.  Warhammer should NOT be Tolkien.  Every single change pushes the world further in a high-fantasy direction.  The new P&P book did this much less than the current tabletop game does, but things had to match the tabletop so the only places where GW really allowed an old-skool warhammer feel are in areas the tabletop doesn't cover.

now i realize there's zero chance a MMO would be released based on old-skool warhammer or anything like it...  and i also suspect that usually the sort of person who prefers high fantasy is more likely to faithfully waste thousands of $ on new mini's/rulebooks once a year.  But i really wish people still had access to the old warhammer stuff in stores...  it really was a unique and fascinating world.  Lots of games and books these days evoke H.P. Lovecraft, but very few evoke Rabelais.  I  wonder what the people who originally created warhammer think of the direction GW has chosen.  I really hope they're thinking "My pants keep falling down because they're STUFFED WITH MONEY" but i doubt it.

Trippy
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Reply #39 on: August 26, 2008, 07:11:52 PM

In the latest edition it's gotten darker again in some places E.g. the Bretonnians are now more grim instead of the "rah rah we're the Knights of the Round Table" type stuff.
idiot grin
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Reply #40 on: August 26, 2008, 07:53:28 PM

that's good to hear, i haven't wanted to go near anything GW since then for fear of what abominations i might see.  Or might not.


sorry to spew nerd-rage all over yr thread, folks...   



croaker69
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Reply #41 on: August 26, 2008, 09:17:48 PM

Don't worry.  Nerd-rage is what powers the F13 "server farm".  If it weren't for you and others like you this site would be nothing but a 404 error.

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Calantus
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Reply #42 on: August 26, 2008, 10:33:42 PM

Yeah we're used to nerd rage and expect it. For example, if you don't start capitalizing properly and avoiding things like "yr" you'll get some impressive nerd rage directed your way pretty soon I'd wager.
idiot grin
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Reply #43 on: August 27, 2008, 12:22:54 AM

if you don't start capitalizing properly and avoiding things like "yr" you'll get some impressive nerd rage directed your way pretty soon I'd wager.

i can see spelling out "your" but i don't like capital letters except to separate sentences or to make names clear where they otherwise might not be. 


schild
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Reply #44 on: August 27, 2008, 12:28:57 AM

Maybe he wasn't clear.

We don't give a fuck what you "like" or "don't like." Use proper grammar and capitalization, thanks. The only time you can get away with otherwise is when the response is total mockery like 'lol k' or 'wat' or 'psycho.'

Feel free to call me a dick, but if I don't point this out, someone will unleash The Hounds.
ajax34i
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Reply #45 on: August 27, 2008, 08:24:30 AM

i don't like capital letters except to separate sentences or to make names clear where they otherwise might not be. 

Deja vu all over again.
Nonentity
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Reply #46 on: August 27, 2008, 08:40:25 AM

schild wut r u talkin about

 Spinning star Spinning star Spinning star

But that Captain's salami tray was tight, yo. You plump for the roast pork loin, dogg?

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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #47 on: August 27, 2008, 09:36:45 AM

if you don't start capitalizing properly and avoiding things like "yr" you'll get some impressive nerd rage directed your way pretty soon I'd wager.

i can see spelling out "your" but i don't like capital letters except to separate sentences or to make names clear where they otherwise might not be. 




The fine folks at F13 have helped me with my grammar and spelling. They can help you too. Mabye.

EDIT: Changed who i quoted, to make more sense.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 09:40:12 AM by Mrbloodworth »

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Brogarn
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Reply #48 on: August 27, 2008, 09:42:55 AM

I, for one, welcome our Grammar Nazi Overlords.

Some jokes never get old. This isn't one of them, but I refuse to stop using it.  why so serious?
Falwell
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Reply #49 on: August 29, 2008, 12:01:29 AM

TTH did a video interview with Josh at GC. It covers a fair bit of material, including what they plan on doing (and not doing) to control population imbalance.

http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/42862
amiable
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Reply #50 on: August 29, 2008, 04:39:37 AM

TTH did a video interview with Josh at GC. It covers a fair bit of material, including what they plan on doing (and not doing) to control population imbalance.

http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/42862

I like how at 8:30 the game crashes.
trias_e
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Reply #51 on: August 29, 2008, 06:11:58 AM

I guess the network just went down.
Hawkbit
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Reply #52 on: August 29, 2008, 06:27:02 AM

Their proposals for population imbalance prevention seem silly.   Levels won't matter if the population is significantly off. 

For that matter, if levels are such a big deal, why not make a game without levels?
waylander
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Reply #53 on: August 29, 2008, 08:05:03 AM

Their proposals for population imbalance prevention seem silly.   Levels won't matter if the population is significantly off. 

For that matter, if levels are such a big deal, why not make a game without levels?

Yeah, people need to get renown as well as levels (duh Mythic).  So they'll que for scenarios in order to fight on equal terms, and they won't venture out for RVR as much just to be steamrolled by the zerg in .00000000003 seconds.

It is a total waste of time to organize a party of 50 to try to take a keep, and be met with a 200 man zerg each time. That's what population imbalance really is, and on the DAOC servers RVR died out as a result. What happened next was the rise of the "8 man" concept which was a roaming RVR open PVP gank squad.  The second component to that was that people rolled ALT's, and parked them in the DAOC battlegrounds (basically level based persistent PVP scenarios with a keep). 

WAR is more like DAOC 2.0 than WoW.  Without some way for the lesser populated side to stand up to 3 or 4 to 1 odds then the underpopulated realm will retreat to scenarios while the over populated realm owns most of the keeps.

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Nebu
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Reply #54 on: August 29, 2008, 08:09:47 AM

I'm sorry, but it wasn't population imbalance that killed RvR in DAoC.  It was a lack of incentive.  Achievers could amass rps about 20x faster by running around in small gank squads than they ever could taking relics and pounding on keep doors. 

A large percentage of MMOG gamers are achievers.  They will follow the path you set before them if they are properly rewarded for it.  If WAR wants to make the game abotu large scale keep seiges, then that had better be the most efficient way to climb the achievement ladder.

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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #55 on: August 29, 2008, 08:15:05 AM

population imbalance is only a problem if, fundamentally, Zerg trumps all. If the pvp, and subsequently the Combat system is more robust, imbalances (to a point) are marginal and able to be overcome with skill.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 08:16:56 AM by Mrbloodworth »

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waylander
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Reply #56 on: August 29, 2008, 08:18:16 AM

I'm sorry, but it wasn't population imbalance that killed RvR in DAoC.  It was a lack of incentive.  Achievers could amass rps about 20x faster by running around in small gank squads than they ever could taking relics and pounding on keep doors. 


Yeah I certainly agree that was part of it. But honestly, how many realmpoints did people earn when every time they ventured out to the frontier there were 300 people waiting for 1 guy to get outside of guard range? Your point is valid, but severe population imbalance was a big issue.

Lords of the Dead
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cevik
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Reply #57 on: August 29, 2008, 08:23:43 AM

population imbalance is only a problem if, fundamentally, Zerg trumps all. If the pvp, and subsequently the Combat system is more robust, imbalances (to a point) are marginal and able to be overcome with skill.

If the ratios are close, maybe.

But then you have to realize that the percentage of "skilled" players will be roughly equivalent on each side, so your argument is kinda silly, given that there will be less skilled players on your side to help fight off the overwhelming numbers on the other side.

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Nebu
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Reply #58 on: August 29, 2008, 08:26:34 AM

Yeah I certainly agree that was part of it. But honestly, how many realmpoints did people earn when every time they ventured out to the frontier there were 300 people waiting for 1 guy to get outside of guard range? Your point is valid, but severe population imbalance was a big issue.

I think that server pop imbalance was more a symptom of other problems than the root cause of problems.  You do make a good point though... I would often log off if all I did was get zerged all night long.

Here's my take on the core causes of imbalance:  

- Relic hoppers: Players that rerolled on realms will all the relics.  Real issue: relics provide the victor with too much power.

- Class imbalances: People play the realm that has the greatest current advantage.  This moved from realm to realm with (not including all of the class issues, just examples) smite clerics, then stungard & left axe, then animists being ridiculous in keep defense, theurgists, BD's, etc.  

- Play times: Some servers had large euro populations.  You could play US primetime and see one population dominate and then log on euro hours and see another.

Mirroring in WAR will help with class issues.  We'll have to see what incentives they offer in WAR and the role it plays in pop imbalance.  The biggest issue I see on the horizon with WAR is that the hardcore pvp crowd will gravitate to chaos and the inexperienced and casual players will flock to order.  It's going to make balancing sides very difficult as players will migrate based on perception rather than fact.  

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murdoc
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Reply #59 on: August 29, 2008, 08:31:39 AM

I'm sorry, but it wasn't population imbalance that killed RvR in DAoC.  It was a lack of incentive.  Achievers could amass rps about 20x faster by running around in small gank squads than they ever could taking relics and pounding on keep doors. 


I'm actually quite curious how 'gank squads' will do with the lack of speed.

Have you tried the internet? It's made out of millions of people missing the point of everything and then getting angry about it
Nebu
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Reply #60 on: August 29, 2008, 08:51:02 AM

I'm actually quite curious how 'gank squads' will do with the lack of speed.

I don't think it was speed that made them so tough, it was organization and the strategic use of powers like ae mez, SoS, snare nukes, melee snares, melee stuns, etc.  If everyone has the same speed, you can't catch someone once they get out of range.  Remember that ToA made speed available to the entire zerg and it didn't help them one bit.   

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
murdoc
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Reply #61 on: August 29, 2008, 08:56:54 AM

Remember that ToA made speed available to the entire zerg and it didn't help them one bit.   

That I had forgotten.

Whenever we tried running around as an 8-man squad, being able to fly in, Mezz/Stun/Kill and fly out was the only reason we were successful. It was more about knowing when to turn and leave than taking out everyone in sight, like a few of the good ones could.

Having said that, we didn't do it very often either.

Have you tried the internet? It's made out of millions of people missing the point of everything and then getting angry about it
Johny Cee
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Reply #62 on: August 29, 2008, 09:26:41 AM

I'm sorry, but it wasn't population imbalance that killed RvR in DAoC.  It was a lack of incentive.  Achievers could amass rps about 20x faster by running around in small gank squads than they ever could taking relics and pounding on keep doors. 


Yeah I certainly agree that was part of it. But honestly, how many realmpoints did people earn when every time they ventured out to the frontier there were 300 people waiting for 1 guy to get outside of guard range? Your point is valid, but severe population imbalance was a big issue.

Chicken and egg.

The rise of gank groups/rvr guilds killed all chances of finding a competitive PUG.  Casuals and all those not in the gank guilds ended up zerging.  This killed the small/partial group game,  and lead to an arms race of who had the bigger zerg which naturally tilted towards population.

That being said... almost all servers had varying populations that led to different realms holidng rvr dominance.  The big problem was it generally took 3-6 months and a couple major buff/nerf patches by Mythic to get that to happen.

A popular, respected RvR leader usually could turn things around as well.
Mrbloodworth
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Reply #63 on: August 29, 2008, 09:32:52 AM

population imbalance is only a problem if, fundamentally, Zerg trumps all. If the pvp, and subsequently the Combat system is more robust, imbalances (to a point) are marginal and able to be overcome with skill.

If the ratios are close, maybe.

But then you have to realize that the percentage of "skilled" players will be roughly equivalent on each side, so your argument is kinda silly, given that there will be less skilled players on your side to help fight off the overwhelming numbers on the other side.

Nah, going to give an example. Planetside. Many MANY times, the zerg will simply loose, because of the combat system and a small handful of effective players and skill. Zerg does not trump all in PS. If you think it does, your part of the zerg.

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tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #64 on: August 29, 2008, 09:40:33 AM

Which why I support hard caps, sure people will piss and moan.  But in the long term everyone will be happier and accept it the same way we accept server queues today.  Incentives take way too long.  People will quit long before enough people will switch sides.

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slog
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Reply #65 on: August 29, 2008, 09:48:54 AM

population imbalance is only a problem if, fundamentally, Zerg trumps all. If the pvp, and subsequently the Combat system is more robust, imbalances (to a point) are marginal and able to be overcome with skill.

If the ratios are close, maybe.

But then you have to realize that the percentage of "skilled" players will be roughly equivalent on each side, so your argument is kinda silly, given that there will be less skilled players on your side to help fight off the overwhelming numbers on the other side.

Nah, going to give an example. Planetside. Many MANY times, the zerg will simply loose, because of the combat system and a small handful of effective players and skill. Zerg does not trump all in PS. If you think it does, your part of the zerg.

Um, Planetside capped the players in a continent so the full Zerg could never get in the battle.

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Mrbloodworth
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Reply #66 on: August 29, 2008, 10:12:42 AM

population imbalance is only a problem if, fundamentally, Zerg trumps all. If the pvp, and subsequently the Combat system is more robust, imbalances (to a point) are marginal and able to be overcome with skill.

If the ratios are close, maybe.

But then you have to realize that the percentage of "skilled" players will be roughly equivalent on each side, so your argument is kinda silly, given that there will be less skilled players on your side to help fight off the overwhelming numbers on the other side.

Nah, going to give an example. Planetside. Many MANY times, the zerg will simply loose, because of the combat system and a small handful of effective players and skill. Zerg does not trump all in PS. If you think it does, your part of the zerg.

Um, Planetside capped the players in a continent so the full Zerg could never get in the battle.

If by capped you mean 150 per side (x3), sure. But what i'm talking about, and what your talking about. Are diffrent.

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Lantyssa
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Reply #67 on: September 02, 2008, 09:59:19 AM

Alliance.

[Was going to split my answer for more snark when someone called me on it, but realized I probably won't look at this thread for several weeks.]

For those actually playing WAR: Order.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
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